Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

I had prepared this 444 for winter duty at some point, hooked up the snowcaster, and behold, two weeks later when we got dumped a bunch of snow it wouldn't start. Like always, me juggling a million things, had no time to chase the reason why it would crank, had good spark, yet it wouldn't start. So I left it there and proceeded to clean the snow with the walk behind

Whatever got into me today, pulled out a hose and blew into the gas tank, creating pressure and priming the pump. Low and behold, the nasty little thing came right back to life. This is the barn find that was in amazingly poor shape on the outside, pretty much covered in long composted cow dung, but which seems to have a really strong and not tired engine. I think it'll get promoted to do some mowing!!!

It still needs beautifying of course...

You’ll have to try that trick I mentioned a while ago, when it won’t start.


Noel

Propane57 wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 4:20 pm You’ll have to try that trick I mentioned a while ago, when it won’t start.
Noel

If you mean starter fluid, I tried, and it runs for a bit, then stops. Tried it many times, no go. Until I pushed air into the gas tank to make some gas come out the hose that goes into the carb (just disconnected it for the procedure), it would not keep on running.

Is there another trick?

No fuel pump ?

Noel

Propane57 wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 5:12 pm No fuel pump ?

Noel

It has a fuel pump, the Kohler k321. Or what do you mean?

I've come to accept that the main fuel hose needs to be replaced at about 10 years as a standard maintenance item. I think what happens is that old dried out rubber allow air incursion, which either leads to losing pump priming and zero fuel draw, or at the least air bubbles mixed into the fuel, which leads to general performance issues.

To me, it's counter-intuitive. I don't know why such a hose doesn't sit and leak the liquid out, but allows air ingress. That doesn't seem possible. But I've recently seen multiple examples where replacing an old dry fuel line instantly solved fuel and performance problems. So just because I don't understand it doesn't mean it isn't true.

Bob

Maybe you had a little water in the fuel system and it froze?

@MattA maybe, but I cranked it quite a while with the starting fluid, and while it would start, it would die shortly.

Besides Bob's good suggestion, there may have been another problem. Perhaps there's crud in the gas tank that gathered at the location where the gas leaves the tank to go down the hose. I never opened a Case GT gas tank so I have no idea what it looks like. On the bigger tractor there's a screen that can get plugged with crud. After I pushed air through the hose into the gas tank to bubble around the gas somewhat, and then also blew into it while closing the upper hole as much as I could, gas did come out the hose that goes to the carb. I guess I did push some gas right through the pump too. After all that, I connected the fuel line on the carb and it started right up.

@thebuildist I will replace the fuel line coming from the tank, as I do have some on hand and this must be as old as the tractor itself so , it makes sense to do it. Hopefully it'll solve the hard starting after the long sitting.

I guess that’s why I asked , if there was a fuel pump. I just sounded like there was none. You pushed the gas through the fuel pump.
Any way. Seems strange that putting air pressure into the tank would fix it. Have to leave it for a number of days and try it again.
You may have to hook up a hose to the tank and each time you start the tractor you’ll have to blow into the hose.
I’m a great help, ain’t I.

Noel

Eugen wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 9:30 pm @MattA maybe, but I cranked it quite a while with the starting fluid, and while it would start, it would die shortly.

Besides Bob's good suggestion, there may have been another problem. Perhaps there's crud in the gas tank that gathered at the location where the gas leaves the tank to go down the hose. I never opened a Case GT gas tank so I have no idea what it looks like. On the bigger tractor there's a screen that can get plugged with crud. After I pushed air through the hose into the gas tank to bubble around the gas somewhat, and then also blew into it while closing the upper hole as much as I could, gas did come out the hose that goes to the carb. I guess I did push some gas right through the pump too. After all that, I connected the fuel line on the carb and it started right up.

@thebuildist I will replace the fuel line coming from the tank, as I do have some on hand and this must be as old as the tractor itself so , it makes sense to do it. Hopefully it'll solve the hard starting after the long sitting.

All of the above are all cause I see with riders. Understanding that fluid is thicker than air . At the engine end the connection are usually higher that the tank , so no pressure to push out fuel . But the vacuum created by the pump will pull in air at week connection , plus any debris at the tank screen or in the line will only increase the air intrusion . This is also why I prefer to have a filter before the pump , if you need to pressure prime for any reason debris will not end up in your pump valves or carb .

Dave

So, could it be that the gas cap is the trouble. ? If the pump is creating vacuum, and the cap is restricted it would cause vacuum in the lines. Maybe pulling air in. And yes then the engine may not run long if it starts. But once the pump is pumping gas it could create more vacuum to over come the restricted gas cap allowing the engine to keep running. More vacuum with liquid than air.

Another ramble.


Noel

Propane57 wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 8:30 am So, could it be that the gas cap is the trouble. ? If the pump is creating vacuum, and the cap is restricted it would cause vacuum in the lines. Maybe pulling air in. And yes then the engine may not run long if it starts. But once the pump is pumping gas it could create more vacuum to over come the restricted gas cap allowing the engine to keep running. More vacuum with liquid than air.

Another ramble.
Noel

Good point Noel, wouldn't hurt to take a closer look at the gas cap. I will do so, thank you for the ramble, as always!

So now it started on the first key, go figure! Maybe it was upset with me for not giving it a bit of attention! I love this 444 the way it purrs now! I want more seat time!!!!!!!!

Eugen wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 9:12 am

Propane57 wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 8:30 am So, could it be that the gas cap is the trouble. ? If the pump is creating vacuum, and the cap is restricted it would cause vacuum in the lines. Maybe pulling air in. And yes then the engine may not run long if it starts. But once the pump is pumping gas it could create more vacuum to over come the restricted gas cap allowing the engine to keep running. More vacuum with liquid than air.

Another ramble.
Noel

Good point Noel, wouldn't hurt to take a closer look at the gas cap. I will do so, thank you for the ramble, as always!

And yes that too is possibility . A lot of the new riders have a large cap where the venting is through little groves above where the rubber seal sits. I have had people who have tightened the cap so hard in the heat that they blocked off the venting . The older metal one I have seen bugs build nest in the cap as well .

Dave

The barn find rear oil, not really surprising! This is the very rare good old red oil, they don't make it like this anymore.

Eugen wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 6:58 pm The barn find rear oil, not really surprising! This is the very rare good old red oil, they don't make it like this anymore.


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How much oil did it take to refill the rear end Eugen ? I need to do my 446 some day.


Noel

If you could find one of these fuel pumps Eugen. It would help with starting. This is on my sons MF 16 we got recently. The fuel pump has a priming handle. I’ve never seen one before until we got this tractor. Just noticed it last week.


Noel

Here is a trick to clean the inside of a transaxle when like that without taking apart .
Drain as usual , jack up rear and put on stands with rear tire just off the ground . refill with 5w30 oil .
Start engine , at idle in high put in full forward and allow the oil to splash around in side cleaning . about 10 min should due
Never do this under load, always on stands
put back on ground , drain and refill trans axle with fresh oil .
I use 80w/90, some use 15w40 , 20w50 , or 75w140 synthetic . each has there own merits depending on climate and type of use .

Not exactly sure Noel, but less than 4 litres, and more than 2.5 litres.

Good tips @DavidBarkey thank you! In the big tractors some people do the same thing with diesel fuel for cleaning except they don't lift the rear.

I was thinking diesel fuel too. Maybe a mix of diesel fuel and light oil ?


Noel

Eugen wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 4:32 pm

Propane57 wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 4:20 pm You’ll have to try that trick I mentioned a while ago, when it won’t start.
Noel

If you mean starter fluid, I tried, and it runs for a bit, then stops. Tried it many times, no go. Until I pushed air into the gas tank to make some gas come out the hose that goes into the carb (just disconnected it for the procedure), it would not keep on running.

Is there another trick?

There is another trick. It is called replace your fuel line with SAE R30, check the tank for debris, remove the 90 on the tank and pull the screen if it has one and check for the white sealant tape plugging the hole, and lastly, the finger over the end of the straw that keeps the fuel at the carb and not let it run back to the tank is the needle and seat. Apply this trick to all mowers.

And, you cannot see bad fuel line. So, do not say that unless you want my hand to reach through the screen and smack you.

There is a sealant made for gasoline fittings in a jar with a brush. No Teflon tape is used for best results.

Propane57 wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 11:57 am I was thinking diesel fuel too. Maybe a mix of diesel fuel and light oil ?


Noel

Here's a couple of pictures someone posted on the Massey Harris group on facebook. He put 2 gallons of diesel and ran the tractor for 2 minutes.


Is that crazy or what?!

@Eugen @Propane57 Not surprising what diesel fuel can do . I use it as a penetrating fluid and in my parts washer for that reason .

When I rebuilt my Tea20 Ferguson tractor engine, I bought diesel fuel, put it in a tub and used that to clean the parts. Worked great.

Noel

Amazing how dirty that was and how fast it cleaned up. What do you do with the dirty diesel afterwards?

MattA wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:36 pm Amazing how dirty that was and how fast it cleaned up. What do you do with the dirty diesel afterwards?

My guess is as good as yours. Maybe continue to wash some parts with it until it's too dirty, and then do what you normally do with dirty oil or fuel?

I let it soak into next years wood pile.


Noel

Propane57 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:17 pm I let it soak into next years wood pile.


Noel

I have learned something useful again! Thanks Noel!

Steady near 14 volts with the new regulator, as it should be. Amps draw looks more sane now too.

Amp gauge looks to be in the discharge side.


Noel

Propane57 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:21 pm Amp gauge looks to be in the discharge side.


Noel

Oh no

Eugen wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:25 pm

Propane57 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:21 pm Amp gauge looks to be in the discharge side.


Noel

Oh no

Might just need to flip the wires on the meter around?

Was wondering that.


Noel

If it goes the other way around doesn't it mean the battery charges the engine?

The ammeter is simply indicating the direction of current flow. Switching the two wires on the ammeter switches the direction of current flow through the ammeter which will switch it from charge to discharge or discharge to charge.

With the ignition off, does the ammeter read 0A? Does it read 0A when unplugged?

You might need to do a little troubleshooting with the ignition on/off, voltage regulator plugged in/unplugged ect...

I can't quite tell if your meter measures current flow or not. Its also helpful if your meter has a 10A or higher range. More expensive meters have $15 fuses in the current measurement circuit. You can always use a current shunt to measure current. A current shunt is a low ohm resistor which puts off a voltage to indicate current. They come in sizes like 1mV/Amp, 10mV/Amp, 100mV/Amp ect... The major benefit to a current shunt is the current doesn't flow though your meter which allows you to measure large currents. Your meter would need to be capable of measuring on the mV scale. Also watch the power ratings on the shunt. You can overheat and damage the shunt by running too much current through it.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=current+shun ... _sb_noss_1

@MattA thanks for the suggestion. I am familiar with measuring higher current using a shunt. I would do that if I really wanted to know the current draw with some precision. A simpler way to make sure things are fine is to just measure the DC voltage at the battery terminals when the engine is stopped and when it is running. If the running voltage is approximately +14 volts and the stopped voltage is lower, most likely between +12 and +13 volts, then all is good and the fact that the ammeter shows discharging is just that someone wired it up backwards.

If the none of the rectifier diodes which face the battery are shorted out there's no way for current to go "away" from the battery.

@MattA was right on, someone must've hooked up the ammeter backwards.

My Friday ramble

Eugen wrote: ↑Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:53 pm @MattA thanks for the suggestion. I am familiar with measuring higher current using a shunt. I would do that if I really wanted to know the current draw with some precision. A simpler way to make sure things are fine is to just measure the DC voltage at the battery terminals when the engine is stopped and when it is running. If the running voltage is approximately +14 volts and the stopped voltage is lower, most likely between +12 and +13 volts, then all is good and the fact that the ammeter shows discharging is just that someone wired it up backwards.

If the none of the rectifier diodes which face the battery are shorted out there's no way for current to go "away" from the battery.

@MattA was right on, someone must've hooked up the ammeter backwards.

My Friday ramble

Great ramble. Your getting better than me Eugen.

Noel

I have great teachers Noel!

Eugen wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:06 pm If it goes the other way around doesn't it mean the battery charges the engine?

@DavidBarkey finally gets that I was joking of course!

I did say it though, to spark a discussion on how could the ammeter possibly show "discharging" but not be wired backwards?!

Eugen wrote: ↑Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:08 pm @DavidBarkey finally gets that I was joking of course!

I did say it though, to spark a discussion on how could the ammeter possibly show "discharging" but not be wired backwards?!

In fairness , I know your electrical skill set and your sense of haha.

But, wouldn’t that work. If it’s charging the engine, you could have more amperage for the coil, which would send more energy to the spark plug. So then,,,,, you could widen the gap on the spark plug to give better spark, which would result in a better kaboom. Which equals more hp. Right or right.

Your thoughts please.


Noel

Propane57 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:59 pm But, wouldn’t that work. If it’s charging the engine, you could have more amperage for the coil, which would send more energy to the spark plug. So then,,,,, you could widen the gap on the spark plug to give better spark, which would result in a better kaboom. Which equals more hp. Right or right.

Your thoughts please.


Noel

My next build I am going to go electric. Power with a Flux Capacitor so I can save time mowing . Start mowing today and finish yesterday .
That will leave me more time to do the job list

@DavidBarkey O'Reilly Auto shows them in there catalog for a 1981-1983 DeLorean DMC-12. Iam aure any mad tractor builder can adapt it to a 71-73 Case 444.
https://www.oreillyauto.com/flux-500.html


O'Reilly Auto says they are on backorder but can ship them today.

@DavidBarkey O'Reilly Auto shows them in their catalog for a 1981-1983 DeLorean DMC-12. I am aure any mad tractor builder can adapt it to a 71-73 Case 444.
https://www.oreillyauto.com/flux-500.html


O'Reilly Auto says they are on backorder but can ship them today.

With a fluxcore capacitor the 646bh will finished before I know it.

Spike

Two days ago this tractor again wouldn't start when I wanted to mow the grass on the outside of the fence. Something made me take the carburetor bowl off. Too bad I didn't take a picture. Lots of sediment. This tractor has one of those new import carbs. Cleaned it up and installed an inline fuel filter. Now it starts fine but I gotta make time to replace the ancient fuel line.

Glad your shaking the bugs out. It certainly can be a frustrating process.

Keep the Peace
Harry