starter drive sticking

[Spike188]

I did a service call on a small die press this week that was stuck on bottom dead center. The a new air supply to the clutch was too small and clutch would slip mid cycle. A service company sent 2 labourers in to get the press off of dead center. They spent 2 days taking the crank assembly loose to reset the press to top dead center. This happened twice. I was in the plant and was told that the press was stuck again. My solution, reverse the rotation on the 3 phase drive motor, then activate the clutch with the motor rotating in reverse. The complete process took under 30 minutes. They are advised to use the new box store compressor suppling air as a nurse tank, (big tank, small compressor) and increase the air line from 1/2" to 3/4, then tie back into the main air feeds for the plant.

I charged them a days billing for the quick fix and advice. I have no doubt that they will be a repeat customer.

[JSinMO]

@DavidBarkey situations like this are absolutely maddening Unfortunate the days of doing business with company representatives or parts people that actually know something are all but gone. Don’t feel alone. Just as an example on my 61 Ford depending on what I’m looking for I have to tell them to lookup 1ton Dodge, or for engine parts look up a1957 Fairlane! Anything to fool the computer they are staring at so I can get what I need.
In this case it might be just as well off to take the 50% refund and hope you can fix it when you can get at it.

[myerslawnandgarden]

Dave,

The Onan Performer replacement for the 446//448 tractors did not use a solenoid shift starter due to it being mounted on the opposite side and interfering with the hydraulic lines to the heat exchanger. I wonder if a better option for you would be to use the conventional starter motor with a firewall mounted solenoid (relay)? That way you are sure of 12 volts going to the starter and are not having to pull the engine over a solenoid issue.

I can supply an Amazon link to a compatible version if you would like, I think they are around $60-70 US.

Bob

[DavidBarkey]

Dave,

The Onan Performer replacement for the 446//448 tractors did not use a solenoid shift starter due to it being mounted on the opposite side and interfering with the hydraulic lines to the heat exchanger. I wonder if a better option for you would be to use the conventional starter motor with a firewall mounted solenoid (relay)? That way you are sure of 12 volts going to the starter and are not having to pull the engine over a solenoid issue.

I can supply an Amazon link to a compatible version if you would like, I think they are around $60-70 US.

Bob

That is an interesting idea . It is very crowded on that side with hydraulic filter and hoses for 2 oil coolers there . Please correct me if I am wrong . If memory serves me correct , the P series starter mounts to the block and the B48 ect. mounts to the oil pan . I don't Know what oil pan is on there and if there is mounts on that pan .
Yes please Bob , I like options . Even if I don't go that route it might help someone else down the road .

[DavidBarkey]

I took the Original starter an OEM unit over to my local rebuilder to get parts to rebuild it . After looking up parts it was determined that the brushes are spot welded to the starter and holder plate . So we took it apart to see how bad they are . They are still about 75% good . So he ordered a new solenoid from a quality parts supplier and I am going to put that on it and test it . The money back from the other starter will pay for it .

[DavidBarkey]

Bob got me thinking . Had a brain . I might be able to solve starter problems with both tractors . The Blower Project 446 with the Genny engine with low CC 16hp heads that won't crank over unless warmed up (140lbs compression ) needs a stronger starter than stock . I did notice that the Performer starters have 9 tooth gear while the other one have a 10 tooth gear . That is about 10% slow turning but 10% more torque . Being that they were put on P224s make sense . That extra might just be enough to make starting easier . I will still plug it in when cold as I have block heaters in the pan and under the tank . The Blower tractor is the older setup with a front mounted tank over the cooler , so will have more room down that side that on Frankie . The valve to cooler pipe may need "adjusting to give a little more room for the starter . This would require having both tractors torn apart in the shop at the same time as the tins are different one each one due to starter locations . Sketchy thing to do this time of year.

Bob @myerslawnandgarden I would appreciate your input on this .

[myerslawnandgarden]

Dave,

This is a bit of information more as an FYI and will probably raise more questions, but here goes.

Years back, Onan did have a Performer engine spec'd to replace the 446/448 engines and sold it as a P218G/10936H.

As noted, the B43/48M series starters bolted to the oil base and were a major project to R&R as the entire front of the engine needed to be disassembled at least to do it right. I could look it up, but I think the flat rate for the starter was around 2.5 hours.

Performer engines have the starter mounted to the engine block from the other direction and are easily removed with most applications, but not the Case Gt's.

The starter is on the opposite side, so there is interference with the hydraulic line and hose going to the front mounted heat exchanger and reservoir ( on some models) Factory instructions were to cut the steel line to the rear of the starter and use a section of hose from there forward so that it could be removed when the starter eventually needed to be serviced. When I installed the engines, I just made an additional bend in the tube, out and then back in with the assumption that starter replacement would be addressed down the road.

These engines did not have the solenoid shift starters, due to space limitations, they used the previous bendix inertia engagement design and had the armature terminal on the rear of the starter.

There are more service issues with the solenoids on the solenoid shift starters than the starter motors themselves, that's the reason for my suggestion to change to the inertia engagement starter drive as the underhood relay is easily replaced and inexpensive.

So, sadly this starter is now $715.68 from Cummins leaving no reasonable alternative other than the Chinese replacements through Amazon sellers. We offer that starter for $72.99 USD.

Since you are in CA, I would suggest that you try to find the item from Amazon rather than purchasing from us, the Onan number that you need is 191-1567, the supplier that we use for these starters sells them as their p/n 5701.

Our listing is https://www.casegardentractorparts.com/ ... arter.html

From Amazon:

[DavidBarkey]

@myerslawnandgarden Thanks Bob . Again your knowledge is invaluable . I got $65 refund from the aftermarket starter which paid for a new good quality solenoid for the OEM starter . So now much to think about , but I have many more options then I had before . I will check with My alt/starter guy to see if his supplier (chinese but built to high spec. ) can get that other starter . Have the number simplifies things .

[Harry]

Dave,

This is a bit of information more as an FYI and will probably raise more questions, but here goes.

Years back, Onan did have a Performer engine spec'd to replace the 446/448 engines and sold it as a P218G/10936H.

As noted, the B43/48M series starters bolted to the oil base and were a major project to R&R as the entire front of the engine needed to be disassembled at least to do it right. I could look it up, but I think the flat rate for the starter was around 2.5 hours.

Performer engines have the starter mounted to the engine block from the other direction and are easily removed with most applications, but not the Case Gt's.

The starter is on the opposite side, so there is interference with the hydraulic line and hose going to the front mounted heat exchanger and reservoir ( on some models) Factory instructions were to cut the steel line to the rear of the starter and use a section of hose from there forward so that it could be removed when the starter eventually needed to be serviced. When I installed the engines, I just made an additional bend in the tube, out and then back in with the assumption that starter replacement would be addressed down the road.

These engines did not have the solenoid shift starters, due to space limitations, they used the previous bendix inertia engagement design and had the armature terminal on the rear of the starter.

There are more service issues with the solenoids on the solenoid shift starters than the starter motors themselves, that's the reason for my suggestion to change to the inertia engagement starter drive as the underhood relay is easily replaced and inexpensive.

So, sadly this starter is now $715.68 from Cummins leaving no reasonable alternative other than the Chinese replacements through Amazon sellers. We offer that starter for $72.99 USD.

Since you are in CA, I would suggest that you try to find the item from Amazon rather than purchasing from us, the Onan number that you need is 191-1567, the supplier that we use for these starters sells them as their p/n 5701.

Our listing is https://www.casegardentractorparts.com/ ... arter.html

From Amazon:

image.png

That was a good read and invaluable info Bob. Thanks for taking the time to share. Harry

[Harry]

I purchased this starter for the 446 winter machine three years ago and it has been working good for me. Harry