Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

I posted this at the (other) site and got a single private response. I was hoping for more points of view. "Safety in many counselors" and all that. Maybe people are more knowledgeable here on this site.

I'm adding a loader to my 4020 PS. My original plan, which I have substantially piped in, is to install a 2 spool valve with power beyond between the factory PS splitter valve and the TCV. Like so:

That will definitely work, but it has the drawback that if I haul on the loader valve while I'm driving, there's going to be a substantial impact on travel speed. I'm not sure if I'll slam to a halt, or just have a lurching reduction in speed.

I'm considering changing direction and giving the loader valve its own circuit by means of a priority splitter valve immediately after the factory splitter valve. Like this:
I'd adjust it to ensure that the TCV always receives a minimum of about 6.5 GPM flow, and the loader would get the balance.

The downside is that instead of either the loader getting as much flow as it wants OR the TCV getting as much flow as it wants, each one would be permanently throttled down. So it's a good solution to prevent them from conflicting if they both demand flow at the same time, but the trade-off is that it makes them both a little anemic all the time.

I think that to do it truly correct is to go with the splitter valve option, and replace the factory pump with more like 13 or 14 gpm. the 20HP engine can handle it, and that would give enough flow to do everything I want.

But short of a new pump, what's my best option between these two choices?

I keep rolling this around in my head. You have put good thought into it but it leaves alot of unknown of how it will actually behave during operation. Trial and error could be alot of work and get expensive.

Option 1 keeps your tractor normal without the loader, but how bad will it stall when loader used. You're normally not going to be moving fast when using the loader. How fast do you want/need the loader to react? How much flow do the small cylinders need? This seems to be similar to the 600 loaders

Option 2 without a larger pump seems to sacrifice tractor performance all the time and may slow the loader too.

There's not much room to work with, but could you plumb a bypass line around the flow diverter to regain full tractor function when not using the loader?

Do you run any other hydraulic motor driven attachments? If so how will the larger pump affect them?

Option 1&2 Will it loose to much power to the wheels when lifting and curling the bucket while taking a scoop of dirt?

I don't have any experience with the 600s, can they lift and curl at the same time?

If you were going to swap out the pump, what about using a 2 section pump like a 6000?

Maybe more questions than answers, this is complicated. I'll roll it around some more.

Wish I could help BUT you have already proven to me, that you know a hell of a lot more about hydraulics than I do


Gordy

I'm very surprised one of the few knowledgeable hydraulic guys over there didn't contribute. Maybe give them some time.

However. If you have a look at the 6018 manual

https://manuals.ccigt.com/ServiceManual ... marked.pdf

You see how it splits the flow into 8.8 GPM and 4.8 GPM coming out of the two stage pump. I'm sure you've seen this and probably are not looking to buy a new two stage pump because of the high price. So



as you can see, the power steering and the loader bucket get the 4.8 GPM while the travel, PTO, and lift, get the 8.8 GPM flow. If it was good for a 6018, I'd think it's tried and true and you should aim for it. So gather courage and either find a two stage pump from one of the Case loaders that had PS or get a 13.6-15 GPM single stage pump and the splitter valve. The advantage of going this route is that you know it'll work well. The other solution is honestly lacking certainty.

https://manuals.ccigt.com/ServiceManual ... -99786.pdf

This manual gives the pump and flow rates for all Case Garden Tractors. It is a good place to start comparisons.

Spike.

Ideal would be 6018 pump and plumbing assuming you have the room for the extra length of the pump ect. Most likely the option #2 with a 12 gallon pump would be the most practical . That is assuming that the return side can handle the extra flow , filter, cooler, hoses ect.. If not you will have failures . And yes 20 hp if the torque is enough . I have an old P220 Onan Performer ex generator/welder engine that powers Frankie 12 gpm pump out put at max rpm into 12 gpm splitter valve .

Dave

Thanks everyone for your input. Each post helped to tune and clarify my understanding of how to proceed. I like the idea to just duplicate how Case/Ingersoll did it, since that's tried and true. Several good points along those lines.

And a totally new idea from TimJ: Installing a bypass around the splitter valve. I hadn't thought of that, but it got me to thinking:

What if I just installed a selector just upstream of the new splitter valve. That selector could direct the flow EITHER to the splitter valve scenario OR straight to the original TCV. That way, with the loader removed and the selector set to "normal", the tractor would be just as if it never had a loader valve on it. But with the loader installed and the selector set to "loader" then the flow gets split, some to TCV, some to the loader.

But then that got me to thinking: how easy is it to adjust the priority of the flow valve? It turns out to be very easy:


You just dial that knob to whatever flow you want the priority circuit to have.

So I'm going to proceed on these lines:
1. Abandon the power beyond approach. The more I've read and learned, the more I've come to understand that full use of any loader circuit means zero flow to the TCV. You cannot raise/lower the loader and drive at the same time. That's not workable to me.

2. Pipe in the priority flow divider immediately upstream of the TCV, putting it someplace where the flow adjusting knob can be reached from the driver's seat.
a. Hook up the TCV as the priority flow, hook up the loader valve as the overflow.
b. By trial-and-error, use the flow knob to find a good balance between the TCV and the loader, a happy medium where the tractor drives "fast enough" and the loader operates "fast enough".
c. Whenever you're using the loader, just set the knob to that number. If you forget, it'll remind you. Because the loader won't work.
d. As part of the loader detachment process, dial the flow knob to "10", which will give all the flow back to the TCV, none to the loader valve, just like the factory configuration.

If this all works as I expect, I'll give it its own full write-up as a "how to" for others to follow.

If not, I'll update this thread with what I've learned.

@thebuildist I think you have a solid plan. You must've lost a little sleep over it. As I've thought a little more about it, I definitely believe you can't argue with the 600s design.
Good luck, keep us posted.
Tim

thebuildist wrote: ↑Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:44 am d. As part of the loader detachment process, dial the flow knob to "10", which will give all the flow back to the TCV, none to the loader valve, just like the factory configuration.

Ahm, why complicate yourself. This only applies if you keep the existing pump, which, when you split it's flow, you won't have enough for travel. Given the seriousness of this project it would feel like such a cut corner to stay with a pump which is not adequate.

With a pump that can supply adequate pressure and flow to both loader and the other side of the hydraulic system you would not need to change the dial ever. When you disconnect the loader the fluid flows through the loader valve and returns to the tank just fine.


But I think I haven't paid enough attention to your design. How do you plan on disconnecting the hydraulics of the loader, when you want to take it off? All those hoses...

Ok, I just had a CRAZY idea.

As I mentioned, I already have the new spool valve piped into my tractor, in a "power beyond" configuration. It's not hooked to the loader cylinders yet, but it is piped upstream of the TCV. So I had a wild thought: What if I...

TESTED IT!?

Crazy, right? Since I have the loader work ports looped from output right back to input (pull the lever and oil just flows harmlessly through the loopback hose), what if I started up the tractor and hauled on one of the loader valve levers and THEN TRIED THE TRAVEL LEVER to see what happens?

Why haven't I thought of this before now? Dunno. I guess I'm a little slow on the uptake.

So I walked out back, started the tractor, held one of the loader valves back and then gently pulled on the travel lever.

And what DID happen? Nothing. With either of the loader valves open, ZERO fluid passes on down to the TCV. It's completely isolated. Which makes sense if you really think about it. When I open one of the loader valves, it directs all the oil to the cylinder. If it left a passage open for oil to pass on downstream to the TCV, then the open center of the TCV would just let the oil flow right into the return line, leaving you with too little pressure to operate the loader cylinder. The loader valve HAS to isolate the power beyond port WHEN one of the valves is open.

But this "isolating the power beyond port" also means that if you're driving along and you reach down and pull one of the loader valves that the rear wheels lock up. INSTANTLY. Which is less than desirable. It causes excessive wear on your tires as well as your steering wheel, (at least at the spot on the steering wheel where your belt buckle hangs up on it as you go flying out over the hood. )

So it's official: Putting a power beyond loader valve BEFORE the TCV is a really bad idea.

What if you had a TCV with a power beyond port? That still wouldn't work, because any time you had the travel lever is outside of "neutral" the power beyond port is "dead". You have to return the travel lever to neutral before you can use the loader valve. It's not as bad of a problem as locking up your rear wheels any time you pull a loader valve lever, but it's still going to be frustrating, probably to the point of "uselessness".

So it's official, at least in my head: Either the priority splitter valve works (I really think it should) or I go with a two-section pump, one for the factory TCV and one for the loader.