Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

Posted: **Wed Jul 17, 2024 12:26 pm**

So a few weeks ago my Case 224 started chewing belts. The princess auto belt that was on for two and worked fine got chewed up and came off. Mower stop. Ok. We’ll need new belt. Back to princess auto and got belt. Put it on. It only lasted a week or so. All chewed up and flipped. So looked harder cant see any thing wrong. So figured maybe not tight enough. Adjusted so had 1/8 “ in between coils on spring. Then thought the if the deck was up all the way that, that maybe the trouble. Neither of those were the trouble. So got thinking maybe spindles or mule drive pulley was seizing up. Checking now and I don’t see any trouble there either. And I know, now an OEM belt. But had worked for two years. Then all of a sudden not work. And not OEM pto. But that been there all the time I’ve had the tractor.

Any ideas fellas. Thanks

Noel

Seems I always get the strange troubles.

Posted: **Wed Jul 17, 2024 2:29 pm**

That’s a good question Noel. All I could possibly think of would be pulley bearings or mule wear where it attaches to GT.

Harry

Posted: **Wed Jul 17, 2024 3:31 pm**

also check the frame mount pins that the mule rides on. They may be loose or worn.

Posted: **Wed Jul 17, 2024 5:22 pm**

How do the pulleys look? Is the deck pulley rusted/pitted? I've had trouble with pulleys on my RM series deck in the past. Pulleys were rusted and pitted causing the belt to slip and eventually the pulley would sink to the bottom of the V groove where it can no longer transfer power. Sometimes the V grove also gets worn out.

Posted: **Thu Jul 18, 2024 4:21 am**

MattA wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2024 5:22 pm How do the pulleys look? Is the deck pulley rusted/pitted? I've had trouble with pulleys on my RM series deck in the past. Pulleys were rusted and pitted causing the belt to slip and eventually the pulley would sink to the bottom of the V groove where it can no longer transfer power. Sometimes the V grove also gets worn out.

No rust or pits Matt. Pulleys could very well be worn. I didn’t have any slippage.
Was looking at the left mule drive pulley last nite and it seemed a bit tight to turn. But it was smooth and no noise from it. But if you held it in your hand and spun it, once you let go it would stop at about 3/4 to 1 turn. You would think it would keep spinning for about 2 or 3 turns before stopping. So I don’t know if that a problem or not. That’s the slack side of the belt. Spring loaded idler should keep it tight. But if the pulley is a bit tight in turning, would that be causing the trouble. ?

Noel

Posted: **Thu Jul 18, 2024 6:59 am**

propane1 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2024 4:21 am
MattA wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2024 5:22 pm How do the pulleys look? Is the deck pulley rusted/pitted? I've had trouble with pulleys on my RM series deck in the past. Pulleys were rusted and pitted causing the belt to slip and eventually the pulley would sink to the bottom of the V groove where it can no longer transfer power. Sometimes the V grove also gets worn out.
No rust or pits Matt. Pulleys could very well be worn. I didn’t have any slippage.
Was looking at the left mule drive pulley last nite and it seemed a bit tight to turn. But it was smooth and no noise from it. But if you held it in your hand and spun it, once you let go it would stop at about 3/4 to 1 turn. You would think it would keep spinning for about 2 or 3 turns before stopping. So I don’t know if that a problem or not. That’s the slack side of the belt. Spring loaded idler should keep it tight. But if the pulley is a bit tight in turning, would that be causing the trouble. ?

Noel

That pulley could be locking up when hot . I would start there .

Posted: **Thu Jul 18, 2024 9:31 am**

Thanks Dave

Noel

Posted: **Fri Jul 19, 2024 12:50 pm**

After seeing that the tractor is a mess in my world. That means that I teardown tractor to fix it, and your tractor has the I can fix it with other parts issue, really bad. So, you are not going to enjoy the same service life as a stock tractor using stock parts. Stock part may not even work for you.

The photo of the not original pulley shows the ve groove is shiny all the way down the v in the pulley. The belt probably needs to be wider but for only that pulley that I know of because you did not show a picture of the rest. The belt flipping means you have the wrong belt routing or a similar issue.

It is going to be nothing but guesses to get a modified tractor going again. I would fix it using stock parts, used stock parts. Actually, I would not fix it. I could fix it. But, you would not like the bill for fixing it.

I can tell you that I have never replaced a stock belt on a stock setup tractor that has the belt cover on the deck that keeps the pulleys from rusting, or better yet kept inside.

Posted: **Sat Jul 20, 2024 6:23 am**

Thanks for your reply ssmewing. Tractor sure is not original. I’ve only had the tractor for almost 3 years now. Who knows what other owners did to it. And it been running fine up until a few weeks ago when this proplem started.
I’ll keep plugging away at it and no, the tractor will never be all stock equipment ever again.

Noel

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2024 11:18 am**

So, I’m just wondering, and I know this post won’t fix my trouble, but just wondering, who ever in the last 49 years took the manual clutch off and put the electric one on, where did they get this clutch ? By way the electric on is bolted on, see pictures, it looks like that could be where the manual pto was bolted on. ??? Just wondering.

Noel

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2024 1:31 pm**

Noel, on the 446 snow machine I did eliminate the manual clutch and installed an electric clutch. It was an early clutch that had to be shimmed to adjust. The clutch was off a JD tractor that I purchased off of CL. I have had no problems with it since I installed.

Harry

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2024 1:54 pm**

Harry wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2024 1:31 pm Noel, on the 446 snow machine I did eliminate the manual clutch and installed an electric clutch. It was an early clutch that had to be shimmed to adjust. The clutch was off a JD tractor that I purchased off of CL. I have had no problems with it since I installed. Harry

That’s great Harry. So did it bolt onto the engine screen like mine does in my pictures. ?

Noel

Posted: **Tue Jul 23, 2024 6:10 am**

propane1 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2024 11:18 am So, I’m just wondering, and I know this post won’t fix my trouble, but just wondering, who ever in the last 49 years took the manual clutch off and put the electric one on, where did they get this clutch ? By way the electric on is bolted on, see pictures, it looks like that could be where the manual pto was bolted on. ??? Just wondering.

Noel

Noel , looking at the last pics you uploaded . the belt appears to start on the front Vee groove and then end up on the back (closest to the engine ) upside down . Is it possible you are putting it on the wrong pulley and its is flipping and eating it self up after that ?

Posted: **Tue Jul 23, 2024 9:07 am**

propane1 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2024 1:54 pm
Harry wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2024 1:31 pm Noel, on the 446 snow machine I did eliminate the manual clutch and installed an electric clutch. It was an early clutch that had to be shimmed to adjust. The clutch was off a JD tractor that I purchased off of CL. I have had no problems with it since I installed. Harry

That’s great Harry. So did it bolt onto the engine screen like mine does in my pictures. ?

Noel

Noel, mine was on an Onan powered 446. The electric clutch was mounted on the clutch hub. The clutch hub shaft was 1 1/8” in diameter and the electric clutch was 1”, so it had to be turned down to fit. After mounting the hub and clutch I noticed that the belt on the pulley didn’t line up with the mule pulley. So I ended up cutting the frame and added 2” to the frame with 2” wide structural steel channel pieces. Then welded to the frame with E7018. It worked out beautifully and has run terrific for years.

Harry

Posted: **Tue Jul 23, 2024 2:13 pm**

Harry wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2024 9:07 am
propane1 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2024 1:54 pm
Harry wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2024 1:31 pm Noel, on the 446 snow machine I did eliminate the manual clutch and installed an electric clutch. It was an early clutch that had to be shimmed to adjust. The clutch was off a JD tractor that I purchased off of CL. I have had no problems with it since I installed. Harry

That’s great Harry. So did it bolt onto the engine screen like mine does in my pictures. ?

Noel
Noel, mine was on an Onan powered 446. The electric clutch was mounted on the clutch hub. The clutch hub shaft was 1 1/8” in diameter and the electric clutch was 1”, so it had to be turned down to fit. After mounting the hub and clutch I noticed that the belt on the pulley didn’t line up with the mule pulley. So I ended up cutting the frame and added 2” to the frame with 2” wide structural steel channel pieces. Then welded to the frame with E7018. It worked out beautifully and has run terrific for years. Harry

Nice. A little more work than I want to get into Harry.

Noel

Posted: **Tue Jul 23, 2024 2:19 pm**

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2024 6:10 am
propane1 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2024 11:18 am So, I’m just wondering, and I know this post won’t fix my trouble, but just wondering, who ever in the last 49 years took the manual clutch off and put the electric one on, where did they get this clutch ? By way the electric on is bolted on, see pictures, it looks like that could be where the manual pto was bolted on. ??? Just wondering.

Noel
Noel , looking at the last pics you uploaded . the belt appears to start on the front Vee groove and then end up on the back (closest to the engine ) upside down . Is it possible you are putting it on the wrong pulley and its is flipping and eating it self up after that ?

Nope. I always put it on the V pulley closest to the engine. The other V pulley that’s closest to the plastic fan is 3/8” I would say. The belt is in that front V pulley, just to see if the 1/2” belt would fit in it. And it does not.
I have no idea what this double pulley and electric clutch is off of. The two pulleys are one cast piece.

Noel

Posted: **Tue Jul 23, 2024 8:47 pm**

Noel is your deck level? On my RM48 deck the front of the blade is supposed to be around 1/8" lower than the back.

I think worn mule drive and mounting pins were mentioned... I assume no broken welds or cracks in the deck and mule drive... Spindles and spindle bearings are good...

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2024 3:40 am**

MattA wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2024 8:47 pm Noel is your deck level? On my RM48 deck the front of the blade is supposed to be around 1/8" lower than the back.

I think worn mule drive and mounting pins were mentioned... I assume no broken welds or cracks in the deck and mule drive... Spindles and spindle bearings are good...

Every thing is worn some Matt. I don’t see any cracks any where. Middle spindle bearing is noisy but spins free. I’m kind of leaning toward the pulley on the engine. I think it’s worn to the point that the belt is touching the bottom of the pulley.

Noel

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2024 8:28 am**

propane1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2024 3:40 am
MattA wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2024 8:47 pm Noel is your deck level? On my RM48 deck the front of the blade is supposed to be around 1/8" lower than the back.

I think worn mule drive and mounting pins were mentioned... I assume no broken welds or cracks in the deck and mule drive... Spindles and spindle bearings are good...
Every thing is worn some Matt. I don’t see any cracks any where. Middle spindle bearing is noisy but spins free. I’m kind of leaning toward the pulley on the engine. I think it’s worn to the point that the belt is touching the bottom of the pulley.

Noel

Not sure if this is any help, but I've attached the Colt/Case/Ingersoll belt guide. I "think" you can buy gauges to check your pulleys.

Posted: **Sat Aug 10, 2024 2:40 am**

So an update. I believe I have it fixed. Cut the grass here at home with it yesterday and the belt did not flip. Long story. Short story is, I found that the right side mule drive pulley was back to far when the belt was tightened up. So the belt was not entering the pto pulley straight on and the would not slip into the pto pulley properly. So the pto pulley would catch the belt and flip it. Once going in straight the belt would not flip. Sooo, what I did was, I took the 70” belt off and put on a 69” belt. This allowed the belt to be tightened and keep the pulley forward enough to have the belt going into the pto pulley straight. How I found this was, I took a slow motion video of the belt flipping. Then looked at the stills of the video. It showed the belt starting to flip. So that gave me information where to look.
Any way, for now it works, why it worked for two years before with no trouble I don’t know.
Thanks for following along. Hopefully I explained that well enough so you get the idea. Tractor does not have some original parts so hard to figure out.

Noel

Posted: **Mon Aug 19, 2024 4:22 am**

Another update on the Case 224 belt flipping. Cut the grass again with the tractor, and the belt did not flip. So I think it’s fixed.

Noel

Posted: **Mon Aug 19, 2024 6:37 am**

propane1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 10, 2024 2:40 am So an update. I believe I have it fixed. Cut the grass here at home with it yesterday and the belt did not flip. Long story. Short story is, I found that the right side mule drive pulley was back to far when the belt was tightened up. So the belt was not entering the pto pulley straight on and the would not slip into the pto pulley properly. So the pto pulley would catch the belt and flip it. Once going in straight the belt would not flip. Sooo, what I did was, I took the 70” belt off and put on a 69” belt. This allowed the belt to be tightened and keep the pulley forward enough to have the belt going into the pto pulley straight. How I found this was, I took a slow motion video of the belt flipping. Then looked at the stills of the video. It showed the belt starting to flip. So that gave me information where to look.
Any way, for now it works, why it worked for two years before with no trouble I don’t know.
Thanks for following along. Hopefully I explained that well enough so you get the idea. Tractor does not have some original parts so hard to figure out.

Noel

I am wondering about generic belt sizing . The original belt may have been right on the edge so that when worn flipped . Then when a new belt "of the same size " was actually a little large in size and flipped right away . A generic belt belt can range as much as 1.5 inches from brand to brand , year to and lot to lot from same brand . Even the width can vary as much as an 1/8" . A lot of the stuff I work on , parts are NLA so I have measure and shop around . I have seen "1/2" belts" as narrow as 7/16" and as wide as 9/16". but are usually between 12mm and 13 mm 12.mm being same as 1/2" . I always measure the OC (outside curcomfrance ) my self because a 70" belt could be 70.6" and add in a little wear on all the pulleys were the belt runs and then it is too long . So putting on a 69" belt that is more than likely 69" and change makes up for the true 70" with new pulleys the machine needed when new .
Sorry I am late to the party with this just occurred to me .

Posted: **Mon Aug 19, 2024 6:57 am**

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Mon Aug 19, 2024 6:37 am
propane1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 10, 2024 2:40 am So an update. I believe I have it fixed. Cut the grass here at home with it yesterday and the belt did not flip. Long story. Short story is, I found that the right side mule drive pulley was back to far when the belt was tightened up. So the belt was not entering the pto pulley straight on and the would not slip into the pto pulley properly. So the pto pulley would catch the belt and flip it. Once going in straight the belt would not flip. Sooo, what I did was, I took the 70” belt off and put on a 69” belt. This allowed the belt to be tightened and keep the pulley forward enough to have the belt going into the pto pulley straight. How I found this was, I took a slow motion video of the belt flipping. Then looked at the stills of the video. It showed the belt starting to flip. So that gave me information where to look.
Any way, for now it works, why it worked for two years before with no trouble I don’t know.
Thanks for following along. Hopefully I explained that well enough so you get the idea. Tractor does not have some original parts so hard to figure out.

Noel
I am wondering about generic belt sizing . The original belt may have been right on the edge so that when worn flipped . Then when a new belt "of the same size " was actually a little large in size and flipped right away . A generic belt belt can range as much as 1.5 inches from brand to brand , year to and lot to lot from same brand . Even the width can vary as much as an 1/8" . A lot of the stuff I work on , parts are NLA so I have measure and shop around . I have seen "1/2" belts" as narrow as 7/16" and as wide as 9/16". but are usually between 12mm and 13 mm 12.mm being same as 1/2" . I always measure the OC (outside curcomfrance ) my self because a 70" belt could be 70.6" and add in a little wear on all the pulleys were the belt runs and then it is too long . So putting on a 69" belt that is more than likely 69" and change makes up for the true 70" with new pulleys the machine needed when new .
Sorry I am late to the party with this just occurred to me .

It’s very true what you say there Dave. I’m thinking I could use a 68” belt the next tie I need one.

Noel

Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

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