Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

1-1/2 hours mowing the neighbors yard followed by one round on our yard. Suddenly the deck was engulfed in oil. Finding the leak was out of the question while the engine and oil were hot. It adds about 30 minutes mowing time when using th 446 and 48" deck but given that we were hosting a canasta party that evening, the mowing had to be finished.With the inspection/cooling panels off nothing no problems were observed. Even with the deck on it, there was a visible leak on the line connecting the pump to the tcv. Having a forklift is the easy way to remove a 60" deck. This hose replacement turned out to be an easy fix.

Nice write up... Forklift is a handy tool to have!

Glad you got it fixed Eugene. That forklift sure does make life easier!

That is one hose I somehow least expect to fail. AND that's why it probably happens. But I'm glad it wasn't something worse, which I was afraid of when I started reading your post Eugene. Phew! Now, isn't it nice when starts align you happen to have a spare of that exact hose?

@Eugen It could have been much worse. The hydraulic tank was nearly empty, even with shutting down as soon as the leak was spotted. I was tempted to drive it back to the garage and that could have lead to pump damage. The tractor would have stopped moving when the tank emptied.

Glad you got it fixed

Not to hijack your thread but it's related... When I first installed my rear PTO a slow leak at one of the fittings developed after I started mowing. I was probably mowing for a half hour when I slowed for a turn my tractor made a jerking motion. I stopped and checked under the tractor. It was dripping quickly. I just shut it off, refilled it and it's been fine for the past 5 years.

Yeah My wife was mowing withe 4020 when that happened here. Hasn't mowed since then!

When it rains, it pours oil. I don't know the source of the leak this time. My guess is the hose between the tank and pump.

Good luck getting it fixed again.

Oh no. Looks like time to do all the hoses not allready done .

Sometimes that is the right thing to do! Rather than having to tear into it again, do it right the first time! That sometimes is a hard reality. Only the second time do you realize to look for more, the first time!

LOL! Good luck!

Bill

It was an easy diagnosis once the cooling sidecover was removed. The return hose from the rad had worked loose. The issue now is the return connection port has collapsed.

Is it a combination of, high oil temperature, tank age, and improper clamping?

Will a hair drier warm the tank enough for gently reshaping the port?

You might need a heat gun to get the temp high enough. If needed you could preheat the tank in the oven to help soften it up before using the hair dryer or heat gun. Just raise the temp a little at a time. Another option is to pick up a used tank. I recall this being discussed on the old forum a while back.

Spike188 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:54 pm 20240715_204559.jpg

It was an easy diagnosis once the cooling sidecover was removed. The return hose from the rad had worked loose.
20240715_204614.jpg
The issue now is the return connection port has collapsed.

Is it a combination of, high oil temperature, tank age, and improper clamping?

Will a hair drier worm the tank enough for gently reshaping the port?

Eugene,

It looks like high oil temperature to me, do you use any hydraulic attachments and is the belly pan in place? Looks like an early tank without the metal inserts in the inlet and outlet nipples, but can't tell for sure from your pictures. Yes, the tanks can be warmed with a heat gun or a propane torch used sparingly, if you can get it reasonably close to original, be sure to find a piece of thin wall tubing about the correct size to give you something to clamp the hoses to or it will happen again.

The replacement tank (C33180) is not terribly expensive at around $210 USD, but I understand the currency conversion and shipping costs can add quite a bit to that.

Bob

@myerslawnandgarden Bob, you confirmed my suspicions about heat being the culprit. This tank does not have the metal inserts. Even though I did not know that later tanks used inserts, my plan was to add them to the tank before reassembling.

I have to take some of the blame for the tank melt down.
As I mentioned in another thread recently, my neighbors Husqvarna hydrostatic drive lasted 4 years. I had just finished mowing his hillside in high range. The engine would lug down, dropping hundreds of rpm and the tractor would almost stall before reaching the hill crest.
Feeling like 3 hours of seat time was packing to much in, all of my 1 acre front yard was completed in high range. Asian there were several spots were engine rpm would drop due to the grade. The last section to be mowed is to steep to side mow. Parts of it require mowing to the top of the bank, then reversing to the bottom and repeating the process.

This particular day was the first time mowing in high range had ever been attempted. It is understood that high speed mowing is very hard on the mule drive and deck. Mowing that speed will not be repeated.

This was the what it looked like. The first area gently heated and pulled back. The tube warmed and enlarged with a screwdriver, then 3/8 bolt, followed by a drill bit. All with the help of a roofing EPDM heat gun. It took longer to find a replacement cord cap than warming and forming the tank. Next step is finding a metal insert for the plastic ripple.

|When you find one ,rough it up on the outside .Heat it up and press it in so it will lock into place . I have had to do that to coolant bottles in cars.

@Spike188 - If you don't have anything laying around, let me know the size you need - I might have something to fit - I've got a stash of different sized small bits of tube accumulated over the years of working on hydraulic stuff...

Looks good Eugene. Maybe consider adding a second hydraulic cooler? AFAIK the plastic belly pan is no longer available. My 2001 4016 doesn't have one.

After listening to the cheering section at CCIGT, I decided that removing the suction hose and checking the tank suction tube connection would be a wise idea. That tube was also distorted. and on closer inspection, the suction tube had sucked up into the tank and plugged. It plugged because it drew up aganst the anti cavitation baffle. The tank cap was put back on, a bolt was used to plug the cooler return port, a piece of pipe was screwed into the suction port through wich a very, very low air pressure was applied. When the heated area began to flex, the air pressure was reduced to just the right amout to give the tank it's proper shape. The heat source was removed and air pressure maintained until the tank was cooled. The air pressure was controlled by inserting an air nozzle into the pipe with a bit of paper jammed around the nozzle.

MattA wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:02 pm Looks good Eugene. Maybe consider adding a second hydraulic cooler? AFAIK the plastic belly pan is no longer available. My 2001 4016 doesn't have one.

MattA,

Not sure where you obtained your information. The original part number for the manual steering tractors was C31369, we have 7 in stock. There is a new number for that item, C48737 which I checked availability on and Ingersoll Parts has 23 on hand. The one for power steering tractors, C33580 is discontinued and subs the the C48737.

The number of tractors missing the belly pans seems very similar to the missing loader tractor dash panels. Perhaps they eloped somewhere??

For what it's worth, I would never, never, never run a 3000/4000 series tractor without the belly pan in place unless for mowing only or winter operation. Might as well just throw the oil cooler in the garbage if you're not going to draw any air through it.

Bob

myerslawnandgarden wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 10:13 pm

MattA wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:02 pm Looks good Eugene. Maybe consider adding a second hydraulic cooler? AFAIK the plastic belly pan is no longer available. My 2001 4016 doesn't have one.

MattA,

Not sure where you obtained your information. The original part number for the manual steering tractors was C31369, we have 7 in stock. There is a new number for that item, C48737 which I checked availability on and Ingersoll Parts has 23 on hand. The one for power steering tractors, C33580 is discontinued and subs the the C48737.

The number of tractors missing the belly pans seems very similar to the missing loader tractor dash panels. Perhaps they eloped somewhere??

For what it's worth, I would never, never, never run a 3000/4000 series tractor without the belly pan in place unless for mowing only or winter operation. Might as well just throw the oil cooler in the garbage if you're not going to draw any air through it.

Bob

Eugene,

Forgot to add, NO MOWING HIGH RANGE!!!

Bob

Bob - I'm probably going to order a belly pan now that I know they are in stock.

@Spike188 https://www.casecoltingersoll.com/threa ... ost-756649

:Lol Bob @myerslawnandgarden , I know that doing it was like hanging a Cresent wrench on Moline UB governor. It would go twice as fast for a while.

Mowing in high gear only saved me some seat time this one and only time I did it. It added an oily mess of dying grass where the line came off, another mess in front of the garage, and about 3 hours of oily grimy work. In the end, no time was saved.

If it wasn't for border customs and brokerage, a new tank would have been my preference. I have heard of tanks delimitation and fouling the hydraulic system.

Also I haven't checked out the plastic belly pan but am almost sure that this tractor has one.

myerslawnandgarden wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 10:13 pm

MattA wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:02 pm Looks good Eugene. Maybe consider adding a second hydraulic cooler? AFAIK the plastic belly pan is no longer available. My 2001 4016 doesn't have one.

MattA,

Not sure where you obtained your information. The original part number for the manual steering tractors was C31369, we have 7 in stock. There is a new number for that item, C48737 which I checked availability on and Ingersoll Parts has 23 on hand. The one for power steering tractors, C33580 is discontinued and subs the the C48737.

The number of tractors missing the belly pans seems very similar to the missing loader tractor dash panels. Perhaps they eloped somewhere??

For what it's worth, I would never, never, never run a 3000/4000 series tractor without the belly pan in place unless for mowing only or winter operation. Might as well just throw the oil cooler in the garbage if you're not going to draw any air through it.

Bob

I looked for the info and I think the belly pan was just out of stock. My mistake.

Another good read:

https://www.casecoltingersoll.com/threa ... ost-745671

FWIW I've mowed for several years in high range with my hydravac, no belly pan and 5W-40 full synthetic with no known issues. I'm also not mowing a small mountain either. I will look into adding one.

/thread hijack

I don’t own any four digit GT’s. Why did they add the belly pans? Harry

Harry wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2024 2:25 pm I don’t own any four digit GT’s. Why did they add the belly pans? Harry

Harry,

The 3 digit tractors have the plastic cooling fan directly behind the heat exchanger to pull air through it. After redesigning the tractors and turning the engine around in the frame, the oil cooler mounts to the side of the dash tower and relies on the engine flywheel fan to pull air through it. Without the bottom of the frame being partially sealed off with the belly pan, most of the cooling air for the engine is drawn in from the bottom rather than through the two sides of the dash tower. Simple physics, airflow takes the path of least resistance.

Bob

You can tell the 4016 has a belly pan because of the grass build up on the perforated side panels.

Spike188 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2024 3:37 pm image.png

You can tell the 4016 has a belly pan because of the grass build up on the perforated side panels.

Looks like about 40% of your panel is covered. Without the belly pan I get about 10%. Maybe you need to stop periodically and clean the grass off the panel. How does the heat exchanger under the panel look? I tend to get a small amount of grass built up between the panel and the heat exchanger. Usually I can suck most of the grass back through the panel with my shop vac. About once a year I remove the panel for a better cleaning.

All fixed up?

@MattA It has mowed both yards with no problem. Taking the advice of this group metal reinforcementwas added to the tank nipples. One tank tube has this hose barb inserted into the tank. The other has a 1/2 copper union inserted into it. The previous owner had ripped the deck cylinder mount off of the frame. When it was welded back on some metal plate covered part of the area that should be covered by by the missing plastic pan. I need to complete closing the remainder of the control tower bottom.

Spike188 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 2:29 pm 1-1/2 hours mowing the neighbors yard followed by one round on our yard. Suddenly the deck was engulfed in oil. 20240624_095912.jpgFinding the leak was out of the question while the engine and oil were hot. It adds about 30 minutes mowing time when using th 446 and 48" deck but given that we were hosting a canasta party that evening, the mowing had to be finished.20240624_095933.jpgWith the inspection/cooling panels off nothing no problems were observed. 20240624_095927.jpgEven with the deck on it, there was a visible leak on the line connecting the pump to the tcv. 20240624_100636.jpgHaving a forklift is the easy way to remove a 60" deck. This hose replacement turned out to be an easy fix.

Your photo showing the mower lift links indicates that you are not using the deck with the mid-lift in the correct position. Any mower deck that has bent lift links is because you have the lift positioned so low that you are high-centering, and the weight of the tractor is riding on the deck. And, no, you do not use the float position. I have often repaired the tops of RM decks that were cracked badly, and this is not the deck's fault. It is a user error.

Your deck is in very rough shape. The front tires are rubbing, which means the rear tires are also trying to climb over the deck. You cannot have one of the issues without having both. Your pivot holes and pins are all worn, so this will eventually happen. The rear tires will drive onto the deck and rip it at its weakest point. That repair is way worse than fixing it now. I use brass bars the size of the hole when it was made to weld up the wear. In some places, you can even build extra welds to give the pivot point more meat.

Now, on the mowing in High Range, you can do it as you have said. It is one of those deals that the harm will not show itself the day that you do it. No, it will show at a later time. And this abusive use will cost you, and it is only a matter of time. Blowing main hoses is the low-hanging fruit of the possible failures from any high-range use while working the tractor.

I have a theory on the rear differential failures: the use of high-range and high-stress, and the inner axle bearings are flanged. The high-stress use causes higher torquing of the differential, and this wears the flange faster until, at a point in the future, the differential binds just enough to break the bolts. When the axle was first assembled, the setup was the same for all differentials. It is shimmed when it is new. That gap is very important. It is easy to tell when the differential is worn. If you shake the rear of the tractor side-to-side and a sloppy clunking noise is heard, that is the excessive wear of the axle bearings flanges.

You guys in Canada have to be more careful due to how expensive the parts are. But these kinds of repairs just suck. An oily tractor is a fracture that is crying. It is crying because there is something wrong with the tractor. Leaks are not just a hassle because now you have to check the oil. Leaks are causing their own harm on top of the cause of the leak. You cannot cool any equipment as well that is coated in oil and then it is picking up dirt and debris that is a barrier to the exchange of heat with whatever air is passing by.

@ssmewing I agree with all of the points you have suggested. I am slowly going over all of the connection points on the mule and deck. As the mounting holes and mule connection wear out the belt takes a a beating and has premature failure. Hopefully I make the deck rebuild a winter project.

If you look at the front of your mower deck, all of you, and look at the spring-tensioned idler, and now look at the front of the deck right behind that idler that can move, you will see on the deck where the idler has worn a groove into the front of the deck. That happens when your rear tires climb up onto the deck or you use your deck to try to move things while it is in use. That is a mechanical limit being exposed because it has hit where it should never hit so many times that it has made a groove into steel.

This event also stretches your belt every time it happens. That breaks your belt. Also, I have seen where the center spindle was tore right out of the deck because the rear tire did not just rub on the deck, it actually drove onto the one side of the deck. The power of the drive system tears that center spindle out pretty easy. This is not a random event. This is a preventable disaster.

Then, this is supposed to be a blown hose thread. I have had the test gauge on my 648 for over a year. I see that in my loamy soil yard, the tractor in the low range runs around 500 psi. If I switch to the high range and turn the wheel, it goes to just under 800 psi. This is just driving an empty tractor that has nothing else going on.

Every time that you are in high range and hit the bypass, you are stressing the system. A stressed system will fail at whatever your tractor has for the weakest point. The use of a high range creates a weak spot.

If you want a fast mower, you should not use a tractor. It is somewhat paradoxical that the group was created to enjoy the tractors and perhaps keep them going. And then, find these same people using the tractor in a way that is not what it was designed to do. Just because you can, when you can do it, does not justify it.

So, I will end my preaching with photos of the York Rake I made that is way cheaper than store-bought.