I think we’re about ready to start putting our 648 to work, but I have some concerns. Keep in mind this will be my first time running a backhoe on this size tractor. Our land is hilly, and I have 2 things on my mind.
1st item is safety. I sure don’t want the operator or anyone around the tractor getting hurt.
2nd item is tractor operations. I don’t want to break a machine we just got running!
With all that in mind, what is the best way to set up the 648 for hill side operation?
How much of an angle can the tractor be on and still operate safely?
If the tractor is stationary with the engine running on a hillside for an extended period of time should I be worried about damaging the Onan engine? In other words in that situation will it starve for oil?
I’m sure I’ll have more questions as we go along. Any advice, tips, knowledge, and expertise you can share is greatly appreciated!
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 7:47 pm
by propane1
All great questions. I can’t help. No experience on back hoes.
Noel
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 8:18 pm
by JSinMO
Thank you Noel. I appreciate you taking a look.
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 8:38 pm
by Eugen
I have looked myself for this kind of information and found a very good video on youtube which described and demonstrated all kinds of safety practices with a regular size tractor loader backhoe, but I think it applies well to the smaller size too. There were several examples of what to do when working on inclines. I will try to find it again and post it here.
Threre are many safety videos on youtube. This is the one I watched.
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 9:42 pm
by JSinMO
Eugen wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 8:38 pm
I have looked myself for this kind of information and found a very good video on youtube which described and demonstrated all kinds of safety practices with a regular size tractor loader backhoe, but I think it applies well to the smaller size too. There were several examples of what to do when working on inclines. I will try to find it again and post it here.
Good point. The same rules apply no matter the machine. I just watched the video you posted, very good information. I think I’ll poke around on YouTube and see what else is out there.
I went back and looked through the binder that came with the tractor, guess what I found?
I guess I should have looked there first!
Thank you for the information. I appreciate the help!
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 10:04 pm
by Eugen
Oh, what a nice find! I wish we could have a pdf/electronic copy of this manual on our site.
Eugen wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 8:38 pm
I have looked myself for this kind of information and found a very good video on youtube which described and demonstrated all kinds of safety practices with a regular size tractor loader backhoe, but I think it applies well to the smaller size too. There were several examples of what to do when working on inclines. I will try to find it again and post it here.
Good point. The same rules apply no matter the machine. I just watched the video you posted, very good information. I think I’ll poke around on YouTube and see what else is out there.
I went back and looked through the binder that came with the tractor, guess what I found?58297DED-4798-4D03-9C6E-A348ACBF6553.jpeg
I guess I should have looked there first!
Thank you for the information. I appreciate the help!
Possibly could you scan and send the copy to Eugen to post on the site?
Keep the Peace
Harry
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 10:34 pm
by JSinMO
You can absolutely have whatever information I have to add to the site. I knew I had the book for the tractor, and parts catalog. I’ll post some pictures of what I have here in a minute, you can let me know what your interested in.
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 10:43 pm
by JSinMO
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 10:45 pm
by JSinMO
There a lot here I haven’t looked through yet. Let me know what you interested in.
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 10:46 pm
by Timj
@JSinMO the operators manual should have some good info. I have not ran one of the little Case backhoes but agree there will be similarities to large tractor backhoes. I own and run a full size TLB and spend considerable time in excavators. All machines operate/handle a little different.
My best advice is to ease into it. Start out in a open area, where there is nothing around that you can hit or hurt. Start slow and dig to get a feel for running it. Get use to how it handles and operates before you hit the steep stuff. Seat time will get you use to the machine.
My father in law would show new hires how to run the machine and then put them on an open site burying rocks or pulling stumps.
Have fun with your machine.
@DavidBarkey I thought I read something about oil pickup on sidehill operation. But don't remember if it was the Onans or Kohler's. Figured you would know.
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 10:58 pm
by JSinMO
Timj
Good advice. I did take it behind the shop do to a test dig the other day. That experience told me I needed more information and more time getting comfortable with the feel of the machine. I may pull it out in front of the shop and “ dig air” for awhile just so I have a better feel for everything.
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 5:06 am
by Toolslinger
Happy you're about ready to start digging.
I would not want to run it sideways across a hill with much slope. Going up/down, I'd really try to have the nose pointing down a hill. Obviously we can't always be facing the way we want, but given the choice, those are my preferences. Of course, this is just from the perspective of operating/tipping... I have no input on the oil starving...
The control that can get you in the most danger quickly is swing. Your machine is likely fine since you still have the OEM valves. It took me a few tries to find the right size flow limiter when I replaced my valve stack to keep the hoe from whipping left/right. When you start playing with it, I'd suggest keeping within 45 degrees either side of center with the swing. That will give you some time to get the feel of the sticks before you swing all the way to the side where you can potentially tip it.
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 5:17 am
by propane1
Wow. Nice library of books you got with the machine. Nice.
Only thing I know about the oil in the engine is, to make sure it’s full. And I don’t mean between the add and full mark. I mean right on the full mark and check it often. That might help. Your Onan manual may tell you some thing about oil starvation on hills.
Noel
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 6:45 am
by DavidBarkey
Timj wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 10:46 pm
@JSinMO the operators manual should have some good info. I have not ran one of the little Case backhoes but agree there will be similarities to large tractor backhoes. I own and run a full size TLB and spend considerable time in excavators. All machines operate/handle a little different.
My best advice is to ease into it. Start out in a open area, where there is nothing around that you can hit or hurt. Start slow and dig to get a feel for running it. Get use to how it handles and operates before you hit the steep stuff. Seat time will get you use to the machine.
My father in law would show new hires how to run the machine and then put them on an open site burying rocks or pulling stumps.
Have fun with your machine.
@DavidBarkey I thought I read something about oil pickup on sidehill operation. But don't remember if it was the Onans or Kohler's. Figured you would know.
Both engines have a reasonably deep sump . The mower manual say do not mow on a slope of 20 degrees or grater. I would say that 15 degrees would be my max with Onans due to being Horizontally Opposed Twins . The low side may not drain back the oil like needed resulting in excessive oil burn on the low side .
My 2 cents , You may keep the change .
Dave
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 7:11 am
by Harry
When I first brought my 644 lbh home I had the same thoughts. "How do I run this machine." One night after dinner I drove it into a garden area and dug three-four foot deep trenches around thirty feet long. By the time I was done I had a good idea how to run the hoe. My wife was confused on what I was doing. I told her I needed to learn how to run the machine and I was trying to dig deep enough to get the water to drain down through the clay barrier under the top soil. I don't believe I dug deep enough to get the water to drain through though. I don't have any hills around me, my area is flat as a pancake! Just be very careful on slopes, especially with the swing stick!
Keep the Peace
Harry
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 7:18 am
by DavidBarkey
Question for you guys that have run BHs. Do you grab a scoop of dirt in the bucket before extensive digging . I would think that would be a good weight down low for stability along with the out riggers . I have run Minnie Ex's and small loaders, but not BH's .
Dave
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 8:11 am
by Timj
DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 7:18 am
Question for you guys that have run BHs. Do you grab a scoop of dirt in the bucket before extensive digging . I would think that would be a good weight down low for stability along with the out riggers . I have run Minnie Ex's and small loaders, but not BH's .
Dave
There is times I have done that to counter balance the backhoe. Also times it's helpful to grab bucket full of dirt in the backhoe as counter weight for the loader.
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 8:41 am
by propane1
That’s good thinkin. Filling the buckets at which ever end.
Noel
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 9:04 am
by Timj
I can see where the 600 backhoes could be a little tippy when swinging to the sides. The straight up and down outriggers provide a narrower stance compared to the folding outriggers. More care/caution should be taken on sidehills. Working up or down is safer when working on hills. If you must work sideslope you may want to cut a little out of the hill to get your machine more level.
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 12:29 pm
by Harry
When I'm backhoe digging in an area, I don't want to dig up much with the bucket. I lay the bucket flat and raise up the front wheels off the ground. The down riggers are always going to dig up the area. I also have turned the bucket with the open area facing down so it digs in when lifting the front wheels off the ground. I've been told that's not recommended but it does stabilize the tractor better. It also can twist the fame under heavy digging and swinging the boom under a load. I've added gussets and fish plated the frame underneath where the frame was cracked badly, it was a mess from PO.
Keep the Peace
Harry
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 8:35 pm
by JSinMO
You can learn a lot by reading the manuals on your equipment, but in my opinion it’s equally important to have conversations with people who have been there, done that. Thank you all for your responses, there’s a lot of great information to read over!
Toolslinger,
As we talked about before, when I did my test dig the machine really moved around. I think using the spikes in the bottom of the stabilizer feet are really going to help.
Timj,
The narrow stabilizer stance has been on my mind.
I think the idea of trying to make a flat as possible area to work on is going to be important with this setup.
The book talks about setting the creep mode on the tractor if equipped, (which mine is not) or setting the parking brake. I’m thinking of trying wheel chocks to help keep the tractor stationary.
Page 30 item 22 is a stabilizer spike for the Davis D100. It looks like a good idea but I think it would have limitation. It would likely need to be removed during transport.
Spike
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 10:57 pm
by Timj
JSinMO wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 8:35 pm
You can learn a lot by reading the manuals on your equipment, but in my opinion it’s equally important to have conversations with people who have been there, done that. Thank you all for your responses, there’s a lot of great information to read over!
Toolslinger,
As we talked about before, when I did my test dig the machine really moved around. I think using the spikes in the bottom of the stabilizer feet are really going to help.
Timj,
The narrow stabilizer stance has been on my mind.
I think the idea of trying to make a flat as possible area to work on is going to be important with this setup.
The book talks about setting the creep mode on the tractor if equipped, (which mine is not) or setting the parking brake. I’m thinking of trying wheel chocks to help keep the tractor stationary.
Thanks for the input everyone, I appreciate it!
The hydraulic power of a hoe is incredible, it will take some "seat time" to get a feel for how much of a bite you can take. Take too much and you drag yourself backwards. Try to take a limited cut as you pull the bucket towards you, soil type will dictate how much. Let the teeth help breakup hard soil. You'll get it, to bad you don't have some frozen ground, that will get you in practice. and break your hoe.
Page 30 item 22 is a stabilizer spike for the Davis D100. It looks like a good idea but I think it would have limitation. It would likely need to be removed during transport.
Spike
I do have a set for it. I put them on the other day just to see how they look
JSinMO wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 8:35 pm
You can learn a lot by reading the manuals on your equipment, but in my opinion it’s equally important to have conversations with people who have been there, done that. Thank you all for your responses, there’s a lot of great information to read over!
Toolslinger,
As we talked about before, when I did my test dig the machine really moved around. I think using the spikes in the bottom of the stabilizer feet are really going to help.
Timj,
The narrow stabilizer stance has been on my mind.
I think the idea of trying to make a flat as possible area to work on is going to be important with this setup.
The book talks about setting the creep mode on the tractor if equipped, (which mine is not) or setting the parking brake. I’m thinking of trying wheel chocks to help keep the tractor stationary.
Thanks for the input everyone, I appreciate it!
The hydraulic power of a hoe is incredible, it will take some "seat time" to get a feel for how much of a bite you can take. Take too much and you drag yourself backwards. Try to take a limited cut as you pull the bucket towards you, soil type will dictate how much. Let the teeth help breakup hard soil. You'll get it, to bad you don't have some frozen ground, that will get you in practice. and break your hoe.
Yes it was really impressive how much power the hoe has! Your right I’ll have to do this in small steps for awhile.
Please don’t wish frozen ground on me! We’re finally all thawed out, now if we could just dry out a little I could do something! We’ve had a cold wet spring, my garden will be late this year!
Here is the warning found on page 5 of a manual on our site.
Spike
Thanks Spike. I’ve noticed the bucket is a little tweaked. Not enough to make a difference on what I’ll be using it for, but not quite flat. I bet that’s what happened to it in the past.
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 8:23 pm
by Harry
From mine own experience normal digging with the hoe was no problem as long as I didn't dig up something hidden. I've dug a bit around my property and have not found much as far as rocks or boulders. One time I did try to dig out some Spruce tree stumps by digging around them. I was not too successful because I kept digging up roots around the stump. Sometimes actually pulling the whole tractor towards the stump. I stopped and paid someone to grind these big stumps out. No sense damaging the machine trying to do a job that was too big for it.
Keep the Peace
Harry
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 8:43 pm
by JSinMO
Harry wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 8:23 pm
From mine own experience normal digging with the hoe was no problem as long as I didn't dig up something hidden. I've dug a bit around my property and have not found much as far as rocks or boulders. One time I did try to dig out some Spruce tree stumps by digging around them. I was not too successful because I kept digging up roots around the stump. Sometimes actually pulling the whole tractor towards the stump. I stopped and paid someone to grind these big stumps out. No sense damaging the machine trying to do a job that was too big for it.
Keep the Peace
Harry
Sounds like you made the right call. As stout as these machines are, there are limits and boundaries.
My dad had a John Deere 450 track loader. We were cleaning up some property for a neighbor, he hooked a root while digging and split the bucket. This was a robust machine in excellent condition , and it surprised me how easily the steel could be damaged by wood. We got to spend several days with a torch and sledgehammers beating that bucket back into shape! He wouldn’t quite till it was straight again. Then he welded the seams.
I sure don’t want to do that again!
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 8:50 pm
by Eugen
Harry wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 8:23 pm
From mine own experience normal digging with the hoe was no problem as long as I didn't dig up something hidden. I've dug a bit around my property and have not found much as far as rocks or boulders. One time I did try to dig out some Spruce tree stumps by digging around them. I was not too successful because I kept digging up roots around the stump. Sometimes actually pulling the whole tractor towards the stump. I stopped and paid someone to grind these big stumps out. No sense damaging the machine trying to do a job that was too big for it.
Keep the Peace
Harry
This is very valuable input @Harry . There are a few big stumps that I initially wanted to dig out with a Case 600 series backhoe, so I was looking for one. It never would have occurred to me that it would be too small for the job. Couldn't find one to buy anyway. It's how I ended up with the big 680h construction king.
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 5:39 am
by Toolslinger
I've done some big stumps with mine. Certainly more than the machine could lift. Dig around it, find the big roots you can't break with the hoe. Anything small enough that you can't just rip, you can get the teeth under, and then curl the bucket, while you're pushing down on the boom a little. The curl has a ton of force that is limited in use by the weight of the tractor. When you have the hoe's bucket on the ground for support you can put that power to more use. Once all the small, and mid size roots are done, then you have to do the hard work with the axe, or in my case a rescue saw. Hack off the big roots, but do it out from the stump somewhat so you have something to grab with the hoe as a lever. Odds are you'll be ripping those larger roots out of the ground later anyway, so longer doesn't hurt too much. Once the rootball was out, I had to split them in half for the Case to be barely able to lift them enough to get on my equipment trailer, so figure 1400 ish pounds per stump...
There's no question I'd have rather done those stumps with a bigger machine. That goes much faster (well used to) with the MF 202 Workbull. However, I can take the 646 with me, and the 202 weighs too much for me to trailer. Either way, it beats the heck out of a shovel, and I imagine we've all been there...
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 12:47 pm
by Jancoe
I've put my 6018 through some pain. Pulled around 75 large stumps with it. Some I didn't think I was going to get them out of the hole. But it grunted through it all. Will not ever sell this thing.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 4:32 pm
by JSinMO
Jancoe wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 12:47 pm
I've put my 6018 through some pain. Pulled around 75 large stumps with it. Some I didn't think I was going to get them out of the hole. But it grunted through it all. Will not ever sell this thing.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
That’s impressive! If my 648 can do half that much I will be thrilled!
Re: I need some advice on backhoe operation.
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 9:39 pm
by Timj
Digging stumps can be a humbling experience. But also can be good digging practice. The bigger the machine the better, but until you get to a big tracked machine you will find challenging ones.
I told her I needed to learn how to run the machine and I was trying to dig deep enough to get the water to drain down through the clay barrier under the top soil. I don't believe I dug deep enough to get the water to drain through though. I don't have any hills around me, my area is flat as a pancake! Just be very careful on slopes, especially with the swing stick!
and break your hoe. 
