Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

Put the moldboard plow on the sleeve hitch and started to turn some soil in the hope of planting some potatoes. It was already dark, the kids went to bed. Went across the garden once and at the end of the row I pulled the plow up. When I did that there was a big spurt of oil to the left about in the middle of the tractor and the plow didn't move. Not happy about rotella t3 next to the garden, but at least it didn't happen in the garden!


Can you spot the problem?! Good thing that I got those parts tractors.

Yep, just when you think you're going to get something done.
I believe I've seen that this is a somewhat common failure. If you have a good one from a parts tractor, swapping it out is probably easiest.
I think I've seen where the cylinder was turned 90° and new holes drilled, or weld up the break and re-drill.
Tim

ÀH guy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:05 pm Yep, just when you think you're going to get something done.
I believe I've seen that this is a somewhat common failure. If you have a good one from a parts tractor, swapping it out is probably easiest.
I think I've seen where the cylinder was turned 90° and new holes drilled, or weld up the break and re-drill.
Tim

This one's snapped too badly to be fixed, I think. Will see how good the one in the parts tractor is for swapping. Well, it kinda serves me right to plow on a Sunday.

Eugen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:55 am

ÀH guy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:05 pm Yep, just when you think you're going to get something done.
I believe I've seen that this is a somewhat common failure. If you have a good one from a parts tractor, swapping it out is probably easiest.
I think I've seen where the cylinder was turned 90° and new holes drilled, or weld up the break and re-drill.
Tim

This one's snapped too badly to be fixed, I think. Will see how good the one in the parts tractor is for swapping. Well, it kinda serves me right to plow on a Sunday.

I ripped the bottom of the holes right out of the 3 point cylinder on Frankie shortly after I got it not knowing the PO. had bottomed out the releaf valve . redrilled 90 deg.s , Cleaned up the burrs , new Orings and put back in reset the releaf valve . That was 7 years ago . Only thing that changed is the orientation of the upper line .
Dave

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:49 pm

Eugen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:55 am

ÀH guy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:05 pm Yep, just when you think you're going to get something done.
I believe I've seen that this is a somewhat common failure. If you have a good one from a parts tractor, swapping it out is probably easiest.
I think I've seen where the cylinder was turned 90° and new holes drilled, or weld up the break and re-drill.
Tim

This one's snapped too badly to be fixed, I think. Will see how good the one in the parts tractor is for swapping. Well, it kinda serves me right to plow on a Sunday.

I ripped the bottom of the holes right out of the 3 point cylinder on Frankie shortly after I got it not knowing the PO. had bottomed out the releaf valve . redrilled 90 deg.s , Cleaned up the burrs , new Orings and put back in reset the releaf valve . That was 7 years ago . Only thing that changed is the orientation of the upper line .
Dave

I also haven't checked the relief valve on this one. Could very well have been the problem. Not only the holes of the pin were ripped out, but the entire cylinder bottom was pushed out too! Crazy forces, welding on a Friday evening, or both? doesn't matter, it held for 50 years.

Something strange about my tractors though, the hugging and what, is one mounting the other?!

Took advantage of this opportunity and after some greasy persuasion it came out.

The cylinder I got extra doesn't look so good. Quite a bit of pitting on the rod.
And after some wire brushing
Not ideal but it's all I got now.

It appears that these are a very simple hydraulic cylinder. 3 o rings and a seal. If it leaks or you think the ram is better in the broken cylinder, maybe you can just swap it out to the good cylinder. Never had one apart myself, but compared to regular hydraulic cylinders, it's pretty simple. 500psi is pretty low, if the seal is good maybe a little use will polish it up.
tim

Tim, the cylinder is welded. I'd have to cut it and welded back together. Maybe I'll do it if it turns out to be leaky. Don't know if my welding skills are up to such a fine task though

Doesn't the base plate and the rod and piston just slide out the bottom of the cylinder?

On the broken one does, but I didn't expect that'd be the case on the good one, I really thought the base plate is welded on. So that pin is the only thing that keeps it in place? Wow! Now that I didn't expect. I'll try to disassemble the parts one today. Thanks Tim!

I thought the same thing the first time I saw one, that they used the pin to hold the bottom plate in. very simple design, low pressure so they could build themselves. And it lasted 50 years.
Make sure there's no burs on inside of cylinders.
Tim

Shoot some pictures when you take the hydraulic cylinders apart.

Not hard to take them both apart. Just like the saying "your rod will say a lot about the life you lived" here we go. The parts one
Pitting inside the cylinder, but not much scraping.
The one from my tractor
No pitting on the rod or cylinder interior, but quite a bit of scraping.
Interesting fact, the o-rings on the used one are a little flat compared to the parts one. But if I could find them easily I'd like to put new ones.

I guess the moral of this story is: use your rod and keep it lubricated, and keep water away from it.

Now that I know the bottom of the cylinder was not ripped like I thought, I'll just drill the old one across, perhaps replace the o-rings and get back to plowing.

Great pics Eugen . If you had a cylinder hone maybe you could polish up your parts cylinder. Your rod looks to be in great shape. A hydraulic shop might have o rings locally.
Definitely have some options.
Still amazed just how simple it is.
Tim

I have a cylinder hone for brake cylinders but I think it'll end up too rough. I think I should buff it like with felt and paste, like they put the finish shine on knives. But I don't have a felt wheel of this diameter. Maybe with a dremel tool.

I have a question for you guys. How concerned should I be for air left on the hoses and cylinder? I'm thinking to fill the cylinder through the bottom hole or top, with the rod at one end. But the hoses are hanging down so the pilot must be gone out of them. Open the lever until some oil pours out and then connect it to the cylinder?

Eugen wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:21 am I have a cylinder hone for brake cylinders but I think it'll end up too rough. I think I should buff it like with felt and paste, like they put the finish shine on knives. But I don't have a felt wheel of this diameter. Maybe with a dremel tool.

I have a question for you guys. How concerned should I be for air left on the hoses and cylinder? I'm thinking to fill the cylinder through the bottom hole or top, with the rod at one end. But the hoses are hanging down so the pilot must be gone out of them. Open the lever until some oil pours out and then connect it to the cylinder?

Brake hone will do just fine . I prefer to chamfer the edges first .
I personally like to put what ever oil I can into the cylinder , top is probably easier . When together and system full start up and bring to low idle cycle once in both directions and shut engine off . The air you displaced will be beat to a froth by the pump if left running . Let sit until air has dissipated from the oil . Repeat a couple of more times .
My 2 cents worth , you may keep the change .
Dave

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:24 am
Brake hone will do just fine . I prefer to chamfer the edges first .

the cylinder edges? or the hone stones edges?

I personally like to put what ever oil I can into the cylinder , top is probably easier . When together and system full start up and bring to low idle cycle once in both directions and shut engine off . The air you displaced will be beat to a froth by the pump if left running . Let sit until air has dissipated from the oil . Repeat a couple of more times .
My 2 cents worth , you may keep the change .
Dave

makes sense Dave, thanks! I'm lucky to get good advice and I appreciate it!

Eugen wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:47 am

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:24 am
Brake hone will do just fine . I prefer to chamfer the edges first .

the cylinder edges? or the hone stones edges?

I personally like to put what ever oil I can into the cylinder , top is probably easier . When together and system full start up and bring to low idle cycle once in both directions and shut engine off . The air you displaced will be beat to a froth by the pump if left running . Let sit until air has dissipated from the oil . Repeat a couple of more times .
My 2 cents worth , you may keep the change .
Dave

makes sense Dave, thanks! I'm lucky to get good advice and I appreciate it!

cylinder edges . NP. Happy to help When I can .
Dave

ALso check the holes the mounting pin goes through, they can get mushroomed and sharp enough to damage the O ring during assembly. On the other group someone also mentioned sliding in the header/end plate and removing the paint from the inside of the cylinder to make it easier to disassemble and reassemble.


Gordy

Gordy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:25 pm ALso check the holes the mounting pin goes through, they can get mushroomed and sharp enough to damage the O ring during assembly. On the other group someone also mentioned sliding in the header/end plate and removing the paint from the inside of the cylinder to make it easier to disassemble and reassemble.


Gordy

Both items checked, thanks Gordy! After drilling the new mounting holes 90 degrees to the original (some of you already see what's coming ) I smoothed the interior and also removed the paint using a dremel tool. Also beveled the edges of the new holes. Washed everything in mild dish soapy water and blew it dry.
Well, what do you know, now the upper oil port is right against the rod bracket! So there's no way the hydraulic line gets there! Yeah, should've thought this out a little better.

The new holes really need to be as close as possible to the old ones, such that the upper hydraulic line just clears the cylinder rod mounting bracket.

And so plowing gets another delay.

never an easy fix. So, what gets you up and going quick and easiest?
-drill two more holes in the base.
May weaken base more.
-drill and tap a new hydraulic port and plug old
Need proper tap and plug.
-just throw the other cylinder on and see how it goes. May leak a little?
-polish other cylinder and use.

Think I'd do whatever was quickest and polish up the parts cylinder when I had time to do a good job.
Tim

ÀH guy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:53 pm never an easy fix. So, what gets you up and going quick and easiest?
-drill two more holes in the base.

Done, about 35 degrees to the original. Still not enough clearance for the line.

May weaken base more.
-drill and tap a new hydraulic port and plug old
Need proper tap and plug.
-just throw the other cylinder on and see how it goes. May leak a little?
-polish other cylinder and use.

Think I'd do whatever was quickest and polish up the parts cylinder when I had time to do a good job.
Tim

at this point I was tired of fooling around. Put the old rod on the slightly pitted cylinder with mix of the best o rings. The old base plate, hopefully it doesn't leak, I kinda banged the steel line coming out of it.

Let me tell you, there so little wiggle room, only a particular sequence of moves will get that cylinder back to where it came from. I'll describe it in a post later, maybe it'll save someone a little time.

When I was about to put in the last clip on the upper pin I heard crying on two different voices which meant the boys are up and I need to run in.

Stay tuned folks, there may be another instalment tonight, or if not, tomorrow.

After the kids were fast asleep I sneaked out like a ninja, singlemindedly focused on that last spit pin! My blood offering to the mosquito lord seemed to have been accepted, as many little blood suckers descended upon me. Put the split pin on, added Rotella 15w-40. No matter how careful I am, I always see to overfill a little, and then need to clean up.

Fired it up a little, and moved the hitch up and down. Indeed the lever of hydraulic oil went down after some bubbles surfaced and the hitch moved. It was very dark and the mosquitos were relentless, but I could not see any leaks in that short time. I won't have the time to hook up a pressure gauge and adjust the pressure on the hitch lift. I do want to decrease the setting on the pressure relief valve on the lift. Soon(ish).

In the meanwhile we finally got some much needed rain last night, not a lot, but enough to hopefully loosen up the soil a little, so I can hit it with the plow in the next day or so. Followed by the tiller. It's late for potatoes and onion, I know. I just can't help myself.

Here's the sequence of moves I came up with to put the lift cylinder back on.

1. Insert the piston rod into the cylinder tube such that it comes out the other side about 3/4 to 1".
2. Insert the base plate such that the steel hydraulic line protruding from it is in the lowest position around the circle of the cylinder base. This gives the largest clearance to the 1/2" pin holding the cylinder in place at the bottom.
2. Screw in the top hydraulic line, by turning the cylinder. Yes, the line does not rotate, so the cylinder needs to rotate. I went hand tight.
3. Push both the base plate and cylinder rod in until the base plate clears the pin holes. I used the hammer handle to do this.
4. Insert a large screw driver in the pin holes at the bottom of the cylinder to have some counter force, and tighten the upper hydraulic line with the 5/8 wrench. I suppose you can do this after you install the cylinder, but at this point I found more room than at the end.
5. Hook up the lower hydraulic line. This can be done with a 5/8 wrench and another counter wrench, as the line has a sleeve nut.
6. Pull the cylinder rod out as far as it goes and rotate it so that the upper pin has a path clear of the upper hydraulic line. At this point the cylinder or rod are not pinned, and hanging only on the hydraulic lines.
7. Position the cylinder rod and install the pin.
8. Rotate the cylinder to the bottom holes are aligned with the holes in the frame mount, and insert the pin.
9. Put the split pins on.
10. Replenish hydraulic oil as needed and turn the tractor on, moving the hitch up and down a few times. Replenish oil as needed.

This worked for me, ymmv

Random question for you Eugen... When plowing are you using down pressure or up pressure or float on the attachment? I recall my snowcaster manual says to use the float position. I'm wondering if a broken lift cylinder is the reasoning...

I've never seen a sleeve hitch setup in person. Does up and down of the travel lever move the sleeve hitch up and down or is the movement reversed?

MattA wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:34 am Random question for you Eugen... When plowing are you using down pressure or up pressure or float on the attachment? I recall my snowcaster manual says to use the float position. I'm wondering if a broken lift cylinder is the reasoning...

I've never seen a sleeve hitch setup in person. Does up and down of the travel lever move the sleeve hitch up and down or is the movement reversed?

I plow on float. However, the plow goes deep and when I'd get stuck would lift the plow. Sometimes I reverse a bit and then lift. It's possible my plow isn't properly set up. When it's stuck deep and I lift the forces on that little cylinder are huge. I won't do that anymore now that I know what can happen.

The lever and movement of the hitch are reversed.

Your plow is going to want to dig in and go deep, it can't be helped much. If you flatten it out to much it won't go in the ground. Finding the sweet spot will help. They definitely put alot of strain on the system.
On my 3pt I've always had to get the plow in the ground and then hold up a little to keep it at right depth. If It was my plow I'd put a wheel on it to control the depth and plow in float.
Tim

The biggest advantage to a 3 pt. is that you can use clip on cylinder stops to hold the depth of implement . I am thinking you might be able to acheave the same result with a chain of the back of the diff for sleeve hitches .
Dave

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:47 am The biggest advantage to a 3 pt. is that you can use clip on cylinder stops to hold the depth of implement . I am thinking you might be able to acheave the same result with a chain of the back of the diff for sleeve hitches .
Dave

Dave, I don't really understand what you mean by a chain of the back of the diff for sleeve hitches?

So, here's my big dillema. My 446 has the 16" wheels with ag tires with big lugs and the JD combine weights, really diggs well into the soil, but no 3pt hitch. My 644 has the 3 pt hitch, but no rear wheel weights and worn out lugs on the rear tires. I'd have loved to put the 16" wheels from the 446 on the 644, but they won't fit under the fender grrrrrr!

Maybe try and put some sort of a wheel on the plough to keep it at a certain depth, like Tim says. That will need I find a wheel, and a way to attach it to the plough.

Here is a link to some guys running depth wheels for ideas.
https://youtu.be/ls9FSkdsIBc

Thanks Tim! I'll see what I can come up with.

BTW, why is it that at all plow days I've seen on youtube you almost never see Case tractors. Cub cadets and JDs. :puzzled:

Eugen wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:05 pm Thanks Tim! I'll see what I can come up with.

BTW, why is it that at all plow days I've seen on youtube you almost never see Case tractors. Cub cadets and JDs. :puzzled:

I've thought the same thing. And even when you see one in line they cut away before it comes by. Me thinks we're being discriminated against.

ÀH guy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:40 pm I've thought the same thing. And even when you see one in line they cut away before it comes by. Me thinks we're being discriminated against.

Tim, I found a lot of good information on the gauge wheel at this link

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/8 ... -required/

Wish I had the right parts. Got two contender wheels.. hm.. maybe a tad large.