Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

So I'm having problems with my 48" deck on my 444. I've done everything I can think of and have not come up with a solution. Every time I even turn the mower deck by hand, the belt instantly flips inside the pulley on the deck. If I run it like that it will snap after less than a minute.
Now I'm not necessarily going to change it over to hydraulic but I was thinking of it. I know from searching around on the internet it's been done before but no one has ever said what motor they use.
Now from what I understand our machines put out about 8 gpm.
People always make it a big deal to the motor has to be perfectly sized for the implement. But I've noticed that implements for skid steers have a wide range of GPM requirement. Very often the range will allow the doubling or more. Why is it so much more important to size a mower deck motor than something like that?
Was just curious on what other people's ideas were on this

Following this because I like the subject, theoretically speaking. Although I must say I'm not at all unhappy with my belt driven deck.

After you had posted in another thread about the belt rolling over issues, I did a little searching around on the problem, as you have probably also done. There didn't seem to be a consistent cause, but belt size was one of the more common causes. I know cost and availability are an issue, but have you gave a OEM 9/16" belt a try.

As for the hydraulic's it seems like a simple solution, but it's not as simple as it would appear.

Matching the motor size is important, to small would spin to fast, too big not fast enough. Changing pulley size could help dial you in.

The design of the hydraulic system on these tractors with a single pump dictates the need to closely match the motor to the pump. The system is set up in series, the oil goes from the pump to the pto, to the hydraulic motor, then to the TCV, then to the drive motor for the wheels, then back to filter, and reservoir. On the skid loader there is a much larger pump or multiple pumps. They are not running in series and so a flow control valve can be used.

Hydraulic motor protection is also a must to protect the motor so you don't blow the shaft seal out of your motor or blow-up the motor during spin down. A case drain and/or a cross over check/relief valve should be installed.

Hydraulic oil cooling is another issue to consider.

Ingersoll did this and made it work on the All Hydraulic series tractors. These tractors ran larger 11gpm pumps and larger coolers. They used hydraulic motors around .85ci displacement.

Hydraulic motors used on some of the standard attachments ran around the .7 to .75ci. This would be the size to look for.

Some of the attachments, like the rear mount finish mower, used the same motor for both the standard tractors and the All Hydraulic's, but just changed the pulley size to get the right deck rpms.
Tim

Thank you. I take talked to Charlie at Barneveld and he said the proper belt is 1/2". So I've only tried local1/2" Kevlar belts. Interesting on the motors. What do you mean the pulley size? Wasn't the motor attached directly to the deck belt system? Also if you know, what is the rpm the deck is supposed to turn if I were to direct drive it?

You'll still turn a pulley. That pulley turns the other two via the belt connecting them.

The service manual section has some info on servicing V belt drives and a V belt size chart.

I've looked into the service manuals. It just shows a part no.

Look for the belt guide here

manuals/ServiceManuals/

Also the relief valve, would that be built into the pto valve I have?

Eugen wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 6:17 pm Look for the belt guide here

manuals/ServiceManuals/

Thank you. The belt guide shows the length of the belt, basically 71", not the width.
Even if it is the wrong width, I know a lot of people use a 1/2" belt successfully.
I do wonder if it may be my pulley on the deck. One the PTO and two mule pulleys, the belt sits in the groove and is slightly proud. On the deck pulley, it is recessed in quite a bit. It feels fine but I wonder if that has been significantly worn inside. Unfortunately, I have no "good" deck to compare against.

Vicv07

Can you post a picture of the mule drive and lug attachment
.

Spike

The manual lists "A cross section 70.94" +-0.42" ". "A cross section" belts are 1/2", "B cross section belts are 5/8". There are charts available online that break down the letter codes and belt lengths. A71 is not the same length as B71 either.

Disclaimer... I'm not sure exactly what deck you have on your Case 444. I just scrolled down to belts that were ~71" in length.

Now regarding using a 1/2" belt when case specified 9/16" belt... one problem you can have is the belt bottoms out in the pulley and does not make good contact between the belt sides and the pulley. Another problem is the pulleys can become worn over time causing the belt to no longer make good contact.

It is a J-46 deck. A cross section belt

Spike188 wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 7:52 pm Vicv07

Can you post a picture of the mule drive and lug attachment

mule repair 2.jpg.

Spike

I removed the deck today and it's getting dark now. I will take a pic in the next couple days

There's some pics of both the AHRM48 and HRM48H hydraulic decks in the attachments section of this Forum.
I had read that the drive pulley attached to the hydraulic motor on the HRM48H was 7" for standard tractors and 6.4" for the All Hydraulic tractors, but they used the same motor.
On my AHRM48 the drive pulley is the same size as the rest of the deck pulleys. About 4.5".
Your PTO valve should have a relief valve in it, but you have to still provide protection for your hydraulic motor. With high speed, high inertia attachments, when the hydraulic flow is shut off, the attachment continues to turn as it slows to a stop. This turns the hydraulic motor into a pump creating pressure with no place to go, which can blow the shaft seal, the hydraulic hose, or the motor. Throttling down to idle before shut down is best.
In early versions, Case left it to the relief valve, but in later they added a case drain line, or a cross over relief. Case offered retrofit kits to add these, so it would seem there was issues running without them.
A case drain is the third, smaller hydraulic line you see on attachments. It relieves excess pressure around the motor shaft and routes it to a low pressure area of the hydraulic system. Early systems ran them back to the TCV, later they T'd it in near the hydraulic filter.
A cross over relief is a line ran between the in and out lines, like an "H", near the hydraulic motor. There is a check valve in the crossover line, it is closed while operating, but opens during spin down, allowing the oil to circulate back to the motor.
Tim

vicv07 wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 7:39 pm

Eugen wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 6:17 pm Look for the belt guide here

manuals/ServiceManuals/

Thank you. The belt guide shows the length of the belt, basically 71", not the width.
Even if it is the wrong width, I know a lot of people use a 1/2" belt successfully.
I do wonder if it may be my pulley on the deck. One the PTO and two mule pulleys, the belt sits in the groove and is slightly proud. On the deck pulley, it is recessed in quite a bit. It feels fine but I wonder if that has been significantly worn inside. Unfortunately, I have no "good" deck to compare against.

PXL_20210527_201301557.jpg

I use only the OEM 9/16" belt. I still have the first belt I bought for the deck and the snow caster. They are both still in good shape.

The blue belts like in your photo just do not last for this application. It is said to be a result of the twists that are employed to route the belt.

Case used pulleys made for B section or 5/8" belts. That is why you "can" use 1/2" or 5/8" belts.

The OEM belts will last for a decade given the pulleys are in good condition. Good condition pulleys are a must no matter the belt used, though.

I have replaced the idler pulleys but not the deck pulley. The idler pulleys are the last pieces needing replacement to have a quiet deck or caster. My caster is so quiet that I often forget to turn it off and find this out by turning the key to start it and not getting anything.

I do not understand all the belt debates. When you have experienced people saying over and over to use the OEM belts because they are better, there is a reason. We are just as cheap as anyone else. The cheapest belt is the OEM belt, hands down, no debate.

I'm not being cheap. I'm being Canadian. For a belt that might cost you $30 costs me $100. But I've also been told that if I'm snapping a belt in 10 seconds, in OEM belt isn't that much better that it will last 4 years and I obviously have other issues. Which is why I'm trying to solve those issues.

I'd definitely not use a new expensive belt before the issue gets resolved. I'm 100% sure the belt doesn't disintegrate so quickly because it's 1/2", I am running 1/2" for 2 years on my deck and it's fine. I am in full agreement (theoretically and philosophically) that I would be better of in the long term with the OEM belt, but hey, I didn't know about it when I got my tractor, and the current belt is fine, so I'm not very motivated to get the OEM at the moment.

Vic, like Spike said, it's almost sure that you got some sort of misalignment problem. Just take it methodically front to back, let's examine all the hook up parts on both the tractor and the deck. I'm sure you'll solve this, just needs looked at it carefully.

You are free to come to my place with your tractor and try my decks. I know you're pretty far, but nonetheless I'm offering. As you know I'm not in a position to travel far myself.

I appreciate that Eugene thank you

Vic if you'd like to have a look at my setup let me know too - just realized were about 30 mins from eachother!

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Well I fixed it. Got the grass cut real nice

Chad wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:05 pm Vic if you'd like to have a look at my setup let me know too - just realized were about 30 mins from eachother!

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Hi Chad thanks. Where abouts are you?