Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

Guys, I just bought a 646 that I found out today needs another engine. Water got in, and caused major pitting in both cylinders. I found one at this company: https://www.barpce.club/detail/Original ... kmhhk.html Has anyone done any buisness with them? Seems like a pretty cheap price, IMO. Any light you can shine on this would be much appreciated!------Metalguy

No idea how legit that business is. Perhaps you can give them a call. How's the crankshaft and pistons and such?

I just looked at the website is selling cookies, cakes, and vacations and dental services to name a few. I would be leery of it.

Googling barpce club brings up one

Easy Healthy Desserts To Satisfy Your Sweet Tooth How to ...
barpce.club
https://www.barpce.club
Feb 11, 2023 — Address: 4729 Meadowview Drive Fredericksburg, VA 22408; Call Us: 540-760-4309; Email:support@barpce.club; Mon – Fri:8:00AM - 10:00PM.oid

Here is another listing

Barpce : My Blog – Otro sitio realizado con WordPress

CuteStat.com
https://barpce.club.cutestat.com
barpce.club is 2 years 4 months old. It has a global traffic rank of #3562935 in the world. It is a domain having club extension. This website is estimated ...

Metal guy I’m not sure of your location. I purchased a ccka a few years ago for the tins. It originally powered a welder. I know it turns over so it’s not stuck. Other than that I don’t need this engine and you are welcome to take it for free. Harry

So I took one for the team and ordered one of these, will update with any information regarding the results when/if it ships/arrives.

Bob

myerslawnandgarden wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 11:28 pm So I took one for the team and ordered one of these, will update with any information regarding the results when/if it ships/arrives.

Bob

But why? Are you rebuilding an engine Bob?

I looked again at the page. Fake sites don't have a phone and what seems like a real address listed. Most likely this is fine.

@Harry , that is very generous of you!

Harry, that is a generous offer! I am out here in Olympia, WA. I may wait it out a bit, and see how Bob gets on with his, though if that's OK.-----Metalguy

metalguy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 2:06 pm Harry, that is a generous offer! I am out here in Olympia, WA. I may wait it out a bit, and see how Bob gets on with his, though if that's OK.-----Metalguy

Not a problem it’s just sitting here with no plans to use it. The guy I bought it from said it was on a Hobart welder that his Dad had. I believe the governor balls are the same as a generator which run at 2500 rpm. So they would have to be changed to get the 3600 rpm for a GT. I’m flying to Portland Oregon to visit my son on Thursday. If I could put it in my pocket I would bring it with me. LOL. Harry

Here is a pic of why I need a new engine. The pitting in the cylinder is deep!

Group,

It appears that this short block is an elaborate scam, I will post details this evening. Please, no one order one right now. Metalguy, call me at the number I left in my reply to your PM.

Bob

Oh no, really sorry to hear that Bob. Hope you didn't lose any money on this.

Eugen wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:35 pm Oh no, really sorry to hear that Bob. Hope you didn't lose any money on this.

I think I'm going to eat this one, Eugen. Might need to start a "Go Fund Me" page, lol. Will post details later, the story is quite lengthy.

Bob

part 1:

So, regarding this item.....,guessing everyone has read the thread up to this point.

The listing was of interest, but here is a reminder... "if it seems too good to be true".... you all can finish it. Second reminder..... due diligence must be done in these cases.

So, my curiosity being what it is says "why don't we just order one and see if it is legit?" That being said, it was after 10 PM on Tuesday night and I will admit to possibly having hoisted a couple of pints by then which may have impaired good judgement. But, the thought process at that time was " why not?, PayPal/Visa-MC always protects the buyer if the goods are not received as advertised or received even if it takes a few weeks".

Placed the order and paid with my Capitol One Visa Business Card. After checkout, the site displayed an order confirmation with an order number which I printed off. So far so good. Did not receive an email confirmation but ok, it's late and I will check tomorrow. Tomorrow morning still no confirmation so time to do a bit of digging since an uneasy feeling is setting in. I did receive an email from PayPal noting that I had made a payment in the agreed amount using my Visa for funding. Which is ok, I also use PayPal to process bank card payment when anyone orders from our website. It's just simple and they are for the most part cheaper than most CC processors. First red flag....... the PayPal account goes to a name "Celeste Care LLC". I google it and it is an assisted living/memory care facility in Texas with 3 locations. The selling company is in VA.

Start to worry a bit! The physical address for the company is a valid street but the exact address in Fredericksburg, VA does not exist according to Google Maps and the USPS. The phone number when dialed goes to a cell # which is turned off, you receive the common message "the wireless caller is not available........" I do a "whois" inquiry of the domain and find it is owned by Alibaba whatever in China. So the next day I notified Capitol One that I felt the transaction was fraudulent, they froze my card and are sending a new one. The charge still was shown as pending on my account. So far so good.

I also went to my PayPal account and opened a dispute for the purchase, you have to choose from several reasons and "non receipt of goods" was the closet description. Dispute filed and the seller has 10 days to respond. In the meantime I have emailed the support address on the website requesting a tracking number, that email eventually was returned undeliverable "connection timed out" I emailed the address tied to the PayPal account which was a string of about 20 random letters @ hotmail.com requesting a tracking number and got no response. So at this point pretty confident that I will be reimbursed for the purchase as nothing was shipped.

Part 2:

Here's where the wheels start to fall off the bus.....

Friday, I get an email from PayPal saying that my dispute has been closed in the seller's favor. Reason? "Item has been received, seller provided the following tracking number". Look up the tracking number on USPS.com and it shows the package was delivered "at/in mailbox" at 10:11 AM on Thursday. Now, I remember exactly the contents of the mail on Thursday. There was a Priority Mail box from Jason at caseingersollparts.com who was helping me with a couple of items that were out of stock, a recall notice from Ford for my wife's new 2023 Escape with 1100 miles on it and a postcard for each of my kids to remind them of the upcoming NIU University homecoming weekend events. No Onan shortblook in the mailbox, by the mailbox or anywhere in site. Thinking that the rural carrier would remember an 80 lb box. So get to thinking, why don't I track the box from Jason to see when it was delivered? 9:58 AM. Hmmm.

Take this info the the post office Saturday morning, of course a part time employee is working. I was hoping that the package had been brought back to the office after the carrier had scanned it delivered but perhaps thought better of leaving it by the mailbox or at the door. Not there. Ask about the difference in delivery times, could someone else run the package out since it may not have fit in the carriers mail truck? No. So why the difference in the delivery times? "I don't know, I don't know how these people think". Is your building 13 minutes off the road from your mailbox? "No I could throw a rock to the street". Then you need to come back Monday to talk to the postmaster and the guy that knows more about this.

This is me now, "so should I go down the road 13 minutes to see where my package was delivered to?"

After this, the clerk decides to check the tracking number on their system which sometimes has more detail than what is shown to consumers on the UPSP.com site and offers that the package was 4 oz not 80 lbs ashipped from Medinah, OH and would have been in my mailbox.

My guess is that the very clever scammers shipped a small box or envelope with the tracking number that they provided to PayPal but not to our address, likely by entering our address into Google Maps or a similar database found an address that was serviced from the same post office. That way, the USPS tracking shows it arrived at the post office,went out for delivery on our carriers hand held scanner and showed delivered on her scanner but at a later time than she was at our address, likely at different location. That way, when tracked, the USPS information would show all of that including that it was left at/in my mailbox. Likely my name was changed or not shown so that a neighbor would not know to bring the misdelivered mail to me. So they have proof that the package was shipped and received and if the post office left it at the wrong address it's not their problem.

I am going to the post office tomorrow AM to see if they can see where the package was left so that I can possibly retrieve it and claim to Visa that the item received was not as described. As they now scan all mail in their system to provide customers pics of incoming mail under their "informed delivery" option, and their scanners are gps linked just as our cell phones are they should be able to provide a pic of the label with a return address as well as have GPS longitude/latitude coordinates of the address that it was delivered to. (if they want to)

Anyone having a question or suggestion please help me out!

Bob

Thanks for the run down Bob . The level of scamoligy today has got to a level that only was seen in spy movies before . I got word a local buisness got hacked when they had shut down for summer hollidays . Small buisness , they are devistated . As they all were away on holidays , no one was there to see what was going on . Not sure if they are going to survive . It is sad .

Good call on paying with Paypal, Bob. As far as I know to be able to withdraw money from Paypal you need to be registered with a bank account. I suggest you open another dispute with Paypal and tell them not that you didn't get the parcel, but that you were scammed.

What seems odd to me is that the site does look quite legitimate; the list of items they have for sale have mostly pretty legitimate prices as well. Seems almost too sophisticated for a scam. Then again, if anything, scams and lies and cheating will only get better and more sophisticated in this day and age.

Eugen wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:08 am Good call on paying with Paypal, Bob. As far as I know to be able to withdraw money from Paypal you need to be registered with a bank account. I suggest you open another dispute with Paypal and tell them not that you didn't get the parcel, but that you were scammed.

What seems odd to me is that the site does look quite legitimate; the list of items they have for sale have mostly pretty legitimate prices as well. Seems almost too sophisticated for a scam. Then again, if anything, scams and lies and cheating will only get better and more sophisticated in this day and age.

Eugen,

I forgot to add that it looks like the shortblock information that the seller used on their site was copied from a legitimate business called OSMI Parts. They have an EBay store with many Onan items although priced as you would expect. I think the block was probably listed a couple of years ago during Covid, the first line of the description is "OSMI Parts is open and shipping Monday-Friday having been defined an essential business as a provider of key transportation, heavy equipment, and power generation parts. Shipping to the lower 48 states is included in our price."

Bob

Checked with the post office today and they confirmed that the 4 oz package sent by the seller was addressed and delivered to another address a couple of miles away. Now back to PayPal and Capitol One to open another dispute.

Bob

Sneaky little devils...

@myerslawnandgarden Great write up on an unfortunate situation. Thank you for sharing the story. Its certainly a warning to all of us to look before we leap, especially when we’re chasing hard to find stuff. Now that you got the information from the post office I hope you get a refund quickly.

My hats off to you Bob, I’d be so aggravated I don’t know if I could stand to do the leg work you’ve gone through to track this down. But I guess thats what scammers count on.

@myerslawnandgarden Bob, Thank you for the follow up. A number of years ago I rebuilt a Case 630 with a gas engine. That adventure broke all trust in online searches. Several scammers tried reaching out to sell parts that they didn't own or have. Bill at Barneveld was able to put me in touch with a farm tractor rebuilder as a good source for parts.

Once again, Thank you for speaking up.

Spike

As of today with the proof from the post office that the 4 oz package was not addressed to our address, PayPal support did issue a full refund and without commenting too much on the seller it appears that there were previous notes on the account that allowed them to refund the purchase immediately rather than doing their usual investigation. Ironically, in checking the transaction on my PayPal account later today, the seller added another tracking number which supposedly was delivered today (NOT), this time being shipped from Utah. Sneaky little buggers indeed.

Bob

Yay!


Glad this had a happy ending for you.

Good out come. Bob
Those dirty buggers work harder at stealing our money than we work on our tractors.

Well Bob as we have talk in depth about this on the phone I too appreciate you "taking one for the team" as I was hours away from pulling the trigger too before you told me you did lol. And then "when" we got our first $250 engine (LMAO...) I was already mentally trying to figure out where the heck I was going to store my first dozen lol.... Glad you got your money back my friend lol PS thanks for the link to this site!
This CCK here is more legit lol posting.php?mode=reply&f=4&t=1587#

Well, I found an OLD CCK that used to be on welder duty. It doesn't have provisions for an oil filter, or a starter! Can it be converted using parts from the original CCKA that is in the 646? I figure that flyball count will be different, but that is swappable from what I have read. But...what about the lack of starter? Is the starter mounted to the oil pan on the original? Interesting, and odd engine. It has what appears to be a magneto setup for the ignition, instead of a coil? Very odd, indeed!------Metalguy

metalguy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 4:13 pm Well, I found an OLD CCK that used to be on welder duty. It doesn't have provisions for an oil filter, or a starter! Can it be converted using parts from the original CCKA that is in the 646? I figure that flyball count will be different, but that is swappable from what I have read. But...what about the lack of starter? Is the starter mounted to the oil pan on the original? Interesting, and odd engine. It has what appears to be a magneto setup for the ignition, instead of a coil? Very odd, indeed!------Metalguy

pictures of ignition parts please . You need a engine rebuild gasket kit , change governor balls to 5 . use only the short block and transfer all you parts over from the dead engine . You should be able to take the oil filter bypass plate of and use the oil filter adapter from old engine . You may need to to swap heads as well . This is the time to do the valves ect. while it is torn down .

Here are pics of the ignition system. Looks similar to old B+S magneto set ups, just two plug wires.

You said it has points , that would be to time the ignition . That being said , what I would do is pull the timing cover and oil pan off the old engine and make sure they will fit this block . So far I have not found where they won't fit as long as they were all "small block" which you have but never worked with a block that old before . If they fit . I would use the ignition system , oil pan and pickup, timing cover , stator , flywheel ,starter, and anything else you can transfer . Get a low oil pressure switch for an older chevy and make an "idiot light" up , they turn on below 7 lbs and are the same thread (1/8" npt).
My to cents , you make keep the change.

The magneto set up had to go, and I put on the ignition from the original engine. I checked, and it has the correct flyball count, so no need to change that. I installed the original oil sender in the threaded hole in the block. Everything from the old block was easily transferred except the oil filter, as this block has no provisions for it. I have the starter, ring gear, sump, etc installed after they all received a good cleaning, and some paint touch up. Valves adjusted, heads decarboned, etc. I still need to taper the lovejoy to fit the crank, but that will be easy. While the engine was out, I wanted to see if the hydraulics were any good, so I put a socket over the input shaft on the pump, and used a drill to turn it, while running various hydraulics. Pretty happy to see that they all function, and that the pump works, even at a lower RPM, as my drill is a large, slow drill. 3 point, loader, bucket belly cyl. all function. I didn't try the TCV, as it is on a lift, and I'd like it to stay there, LOL. Hoping to fire up this engine by end of week. I now have to fix the original muffler, as the P.O. really did an interesting job on modding it! -------Metalguy

Sounds like your making good progress

Sounds like you about have it wrapped up! I hope to here you have it run again soon!

@metalguy I not sure if I mentioned it before but the P220 with the tapered shaft I have . When I cut the taper in the love joy I also cut a small countersink releaf to accept a thick flat washer with a tapered centre for a 3/8" flat head cap screw to maintain the lock on the shaft . It was done to fit under the spider . Also cut a key way into the taper parallel to the centre line of the crank to match what was let of the keyway in the lovejoy . I used a coupler that sized with the small end of the taper . Can not remmember if it was 7/8 or 1 " There is documentation on this on this or the old sight , sorry can't remmeber which .

Spike, I am currently using a tapered lovejoy I modded for the last tapered shaft ccka I installed in my first 646 with no issues. I see no reason why it would be a detriment at all. ------Metalguy

Lovejoy are only manufactured for straight shaft installation. Lovejoy specifies minimum gaps between opposing shafts and Lovejoy faces. That is because there intended use was for field instalation where shafts are often misaligned. In some cases of extreme torsional loading and start/stop forces are high the rubber will fail.

Dave's method of machineing a step in a coupler half to except a bolt/washer to ensure a tapered LJ stays on a tapered shaft. Another method is to machine a keyway in the LJ that is tapered negative to shaft keyway and driving a tapered key into the way, wedging the coupler on the shaft.

Case pump/engine combinations are tame beasts. Shaft alignment, and torsional loading are all very well below the forces that Lovejoys are designed for. A good machinist can match tapers and have longevity in the fit. A sloppily ground straight shaft is forgiving when matched with a Lovejoy, and JB Weld.

Some boring reading can be found here. Unfortunately there are no pictures.

https://www.lovejoy-inc.com/resources/t ... -handbook/

This section discusses mounting to a tapered shaft.
One of the tapered applications described is similar to a compression ferrule inserted inside the coupling.

https://www.lovejoy-inc.com/resources/t ... 92ce194e07

The end plate and bolts or nut will serve to prevent axial movement under loads. Tapered shafts are used for ease of maintenance. A popular tapered shaft device is the mill motor that uses a standard tapered shaft with key.

@metalguy I noticed my first reply is in red. That was not intentional and can't find font color choice on my phone. Except my apologies.

My question is how you are holding the tapered Lovejoy on the shaft. Are you using a setscrew against the original key?

Spike, I am holding the lovejoy on using a key, and set screws. I ground a flat on the key for the set screws to seat on. ---------Metalguy

I used the set screw, and also fabbed up a stepped washer that allowed me to install a bolt into the end of the crank as well. The engine is now setting in the 646, and only fuel, and wiring to finish up! ------Metalguy

Been a while, but I have the engine installed, and running pretty well. Sadly, it does smoke some, probably worn rings. It has .030 over pistons. Are rings readily available for this? At any rate the 646 runs, drives, stops, starts, and digs like only a 646 can. ------Metalguy

metalguy wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 7:45 pm Been a while, but I have the engine installed, and running pretty well. Sadly, it does smoke some, probably worn rings. It has .030 over pistons. Are rings readily available for this? At any rate the 646 runs, drives, stops, starts, and digs like only a 646 can. ------Metalguy

That is great you have it running . Being .030 over . I assume it is stamped on the pistons . So you would have had a chance to see the cylinders . Was the a ware ridge at all ? I have seen where low grade parts were use to save money and the rings are soft and ware fast . Not a bad thing as it save the bore .https://onanparts.com/index.php?main_pa ... cts_id=828
Is just on option . There are many more . When in doubt contact Boomer Onan parts , he is the expert in all things Onan . boomersonanparts.com
One other thing . Onans will burn/ fill breather oil if the slightest bit over full . So I have learned

Yes, when I decarboned the heads, I saw that the pistons were marked with .030 on top. There was no ridge.I may just pick up those pistons you linked to. Seems parts are often hard to find for these guys.------Metalguy

metalguy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:28 am Here is a pic of why I need a new engine. The pitting in the cylinder is deep!

A guy brought me 2 tractors last year. Both were to be refurbished. One of the things I always do is open the engine up, that is taking the heads off along with the intake and exhaust. Both tractors had water damage just like the one in this post. That is so sad.

I bought a new old stock short block on eBay for $500 shipped. Boomer helped out with picking the one that would work in 1975 646 I have that I need to fix up. I got it in a trade deal. It was running and driving when I got it. But the engine smoked. I should get that project done. It will make a nice tractor for someone. And, it gets some money in my pocket.

That means I will have a previously running short block that could be rebuilt. I just have no idea when that will be. It is rather silly to be sitting on that 646 for years.

The priority of getting going on that changed when I bought a 648 that came loaded.

I started with a 644. That was my Project Basket Case. When I bought it it was literally in a basket crate completely disassembled. And, it was the first 600 series I had seen in person at the time. I loaded it in my trailer by hand, piece by piece. I had to both fix it and use the parts I got with it to put it back together. It went well and was a very nice tool to have. I ended up doing some more horse trading and got a freshly rebuilt Kohler for it that was a stator charge rather than a generator.
I sold the 644 after I got the 648. I had to take the 648 engine apart first. That all went well.

Both the 646 and the 648 are bypassing well below the stated psi of 2,400 or whatever it is. The 648 has my gauge on it and it bypasses at 1,800 psi. The 646 has be about the same as the way it squealed during moderate use.

I have some projects.

This is my second 646. My first one was a complete basket case also. The loader had been cut off of it, and the arms were cut forward of the cylinder attach points, engine had pitting in the cylinders, much of the three point was missing, and the only two cylinders it had were the three point, and the belly cylinder. I put in loads of work, and money, and it is a fully functional, great tractor now. I plan on making this second one very nice as well, then selling one of them , as I really don't need two, but they are fun and handy to have! -----Metalguy