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New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 6:43 pm
by thebuildist
I could not help myself. $300 for a supposedly running 3 cylinder Kubota powered generator. 1400 hrs.

It was the power plant out of an electric company line truck, and it even has an attached (belt driven) hydraulic pump. I presume that drove the boom/crane.

It's still in the back of the truck and :wife: knows nothing about it. So I can't go out and play around with it and examine it just yet.

But it appears to be an Onan 4.0 DKD. Which would be powered by a Kubota D650. 15HP at 3200 RPM. (which is the max RPM) And the pictures I'm finding online seem to confirm that.

So now I just need to decide what to do with it.

1. Install a fuel tank, get it generating, and sell it for much more than I paid?
I already have a whole house NG genset, so I don't need this for power purposes.
2. Remove the generator head and install it as the powerplant for the towable backhoe that I'm going to resume building any day now.
(I had planned to power the backhoe by long hoses inserted inline with the quick disconnects that are driving my loader)
3. Keep it onhand for the fateful day when the 20HP Linamar in my Loader gives up the ghost. Clearly not a simple repower. But conceivable. And I'd love to have a diesel powered machine.
But 15HP isn't terribly much. With the power steering, I figure my hydro system can make use of about 15hp. And I currently have 5 extra HP to drive the PTO. On the other hand, my old 442 did just fine, and it was only 12hp. So I know that 15 ought to be at least minimally enough.

And I'm not sure anyone has yet successfully done a diesel swap and preserved the PTO drive for the deck and such. And that's not optional for my purposes. It has to mow with no compromises.

And the 3200 max rpm would slow down my travel speed and force me to play pulley games to keep my blade speed up to normal.

So as cool as a diesel mower sounds, it would take a lot to get it to work right.

So I guess I'm leaning toward having my towable backhoe be self-powered.

What would you do if you were me?

Bob

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Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 8:52 pm
by JSinMO
I really like the idea of using it to power the backhoe. That would be a nice setup

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 9:04 pm
by Spike188
thebuildist wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2024 6:43 pm I could not help myself. $300 for a supposedly running 3 cylinder Kubota powered generator. 1400 hrs.

It was the power plant out of an electric company line truck, and it even has an attached (belt driven) hydraulic pump. I presume that drove the boom/crane.

It's still in the back of the truck and :wife: knows nothing about it. So I can't go out and play around with it and examine it just yet.

But it appears to be an Onan 4.0 DKD. Which would be powered by a Kubota D650. 15HP at 3200 RPM. (which is the max RPM) And the pictures I'm finding online seem to confirm that.

So now I just need to decide what to do with it.

1. Install a fuel tank, get it generating, and sell it for much more than I paid?
I already have a whole house NG genset, so I don't need this for power purposes.
2. Remove the generator head and install it as the powerplant for the towable backhoe that I'm going to resume building any day now.
(I had planned to power the backhoe by long hoses inserted inline with the quick disconnects that are driving my loader)
3. Keep it onhand for the fateful day when the 20HP Linamar in my Loader gives up the ghost. Clearly not a simple repower. But conceivable. And I'd love to have a diesel powered machine.
But 15HP isn't terribly much. With the power steering, I figure my hydro system can make use of about 15hp. And I currently have 5 extra HP to drive the PTO. On the other hand, my old 442 did just fine, and it was only 12hp. So I know that 15 ought to be at least minimally enough.

And I'm not sure anyone has yet successfully done a diesel swap and preserved the PTO drive for the deck and such. And that's not optional for my purposes. It has to mow with no compromises.

And the 3200 max rpm would slow down my travel speed and force me to play pulley games to keep my blade speed up to normal.

So as cool as a diesel mower sounds, it would take a lot to get it to work right.

So I guess I'm leaning toward having my towable backhoe be self-powered.

What would you do if you were me?

Bob


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Sometimes a deal comes along,that in spite of having to much on your plate, it has to be put in your dream chest. It just cant be passed up. This one is a keeper.

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 9:24 pm
by DavidBarkey
@thebuildist Bob you do not have an all terrain diesel-electric locomotive and passenger cars to take the grand-kids for rides in . That deal was just meant to be. :giggle:

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 9:44 pm
by Harry
Bob what ever you decide to do with it, it will be totally cool. That’s the deal of the Century. :thumbsup: :69: :clap: :peace: Harry

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 4:51 am
by thebuildist
DavidBarkey wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2024 9:24 pm @thebuildist Bob you do not have an all terrain diesel-electric locomotive and passenger cars to take the grand-kids for rides in . That deal was just meant to be. :giggle:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You're wicked even to put the idea in my head!!!

Bob
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Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 4:00 pm
by thebuildist
It turns out that the Kubota d650 engine was used in the b6100 tractor. And I presume that that tractor wasn't terribly underpowered. So I think I'll keep it in mind down the road if and when my Onan / linamar dies.

But the real problem with doing a diesel swap is that I don't think I could bear to be without my loader long enough to do the work on it!
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Meanwhile I did have a look at it. It had not a single drop of oil in it. And had nothing on the stick. And I eventually added three quarts just to get it to be on the stick. That either means that it was winterized / sanitized before it was removed from the truck. Or that it was for whatever reason run without oil... And that's why it was so cheap. It certainly shows no signs of having a hole in the pan or it cracked block or anything like that. So I'm still optimistic.

No time to look at it today. But as soon as I can I'm going to remove the shroud from around the fan and just get my hands on the crankshaft pulley and confirm that it can turn over.

Bob

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 6:59 am
by Harry
Bob can’t live without the availability of his GT loader. To me that means you find another GT for the Kubota diesel engine. :highfive: :peace: Harry

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 9:38 pm
by thebuildist
I played with it some yesterday, and the news is very positive:

I pulled the guard and the two fanbelts off. (1 for crank/waterpump/alternator, another from alternator to hydro pump.) The belts were so aged and stuck that the core of the belts each stayed stuck in the pulley grooves, and had to be duck out with a pick. It's like they were glued in there with contact cement. It's been sitting a VERY long time.

Meanwhile, the engine turns over just fine, made a full rotation by hand.

So I hooked up a jumper battery and activated the solenoid, and it turns over. You can tell it has at least some compression.

So I rigged up a hanging fuel tank and started trying to bleed the system, using the downloaded owner's manual. Did all the steps, but no fuel coming out of the filter vent screw.

Unspun the filter, and no fuel out of the filter at all.

Disconnected the electric pump, and nothing coming out of the pump. It makes a nice rattling noise, but nothing happens.

So we need a new pump. Parts manual specifies a part number, that part number leads to a "4 to 5 psi" pump. OEM is 120. Universal "4 to 7 psi" pump is $17. Ordered one of them.

Meanwhile I did gravity feed straight to the filter housing, where upon I got fuel to the bleed screw. So I cracked the injector lines, removed the air intake cover (In case I need to smother it) and hit the starter for almost a full minute. Nothing. Meanwhile my gravity feed fuel was dripping out of the filter housing at about 4 different places. I tried tightening them up, etc, to no avail. At the very least it needs a new filter. It's an integrated water separator and filter, and the filter element is like $35. And all the nylon bleed screws and such need to be replaced. I couldn't find them for sale separate, I can get a whole new one for like $150.

Looked on Amazon, and an entire universal fit separator/filter head with new filter is only $19. So I ordered one.

So no progress for a few days until these parts come in. But once I have real fuel pressure and an airtight filter system, I think there's a decent chance I'll be able to bleed the air out up to the point of the injectors. And if I do, it might just start right up.

Crazy. Seems too good to be true.

MEANWHILE, I'm new to diesels, and here's what I DIDN"T know: Diesel fuel stinks. Now, I'm not squeamish. I don't mind brake cleaner, or liquid wrench or oil or WD-40 or gasoline or almost any other solvent. Bulk Kerosene is nasty. And it turns out diesel is too.

Just leaning over this engine to mess with it made my clothes smell so bad that they stunk up my laundry room/kitchen. I had to exile my clothes to the driveway to air out. I darn near got exiled with them. :wife: :wife: :wife:

So I'm going to have to give some thought on how to work on this thing without tracking in the aroma. Nitrile gloves for sure, maybe dedicated pants shirt that gets worn just for this?

Any advice appreciated.

Bob

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:01 pm
by Harry
I’m not sure Bob how to get the nasty diesel fuel smell off your clothes. What I do know is I too hate that smell. When I was in the army I had to fuel up some diesel generators in the middle of the night. I end up with diesel fuel on my hands and my fatigues. I ended up burning the fatigues and ever since then the smell makes me sick. Even if I’m in traffic and driving behind a diesel powered vehicle the exhaust smell is horrible. Good luck on getting that diesel generator running and keep us updated on your progress. :thumbsup: :peace: Harry

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2024 12:36 am
by JSinMO
@thebuildist I don’t know of a way to keep the smell off of your clothes.

The gloves are a good idea. And maybe look into some of these Tyvek coveralls.
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Just throw them away after your done.
I’ve used them before and they work pretty well but they are hot to wear.

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2024 6:18 am
by DavidBarkey
I darn near got exiled with them. :wife: :wife: :wife:/quote]
:rofl:
I am not overly fond of it either . For me and especially the :wife: it is burnt gear oil . That Bob is a whole other level of smell that you can't get rid of . Being a wrench turner for 30 plus years I have rebuilt many of rear axles and there were times that the :wife: made me sleep on the couch . :violin:
nitrate gloves and a Tyvek monkey suit will help , but like Jeff said they are hot to ware . But wurst of all is that there is only one place for your own personal body aromas to leave the suit and that is through the neck opening . :barf: :))

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2024 7:42 am
by Harry
I agree with the tyvek suit idea. I use them for thevery dirty jobs. I also use to use them back in the day whenI only had a walk behind snowblower. It kept me warm and dry at the same time. :peace: Harry

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2024 11:10 am
by RoamingGnome
Nitrile gloves and the Tyvek suit are pretty fool proof (but warm)

if it's just the diesel fumes on your clothes a dedicated pair of regular cloth coveralls might be enough protection. My laundry protocol with really oily / stinky clothes was presoak for a day in a bucket full of simple green / water mixture followed by one or two runs through the washing machine with extra laundry soap and a half cup of borax powder to kill the smell of the simple green... works ok for "work clothes" and if they weren't "work clothes" before, they probably will be afterwards... :giggle:

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2024 3:33 pm
by thebuildist
Sounds like great advice.

I already have a tyvek coveralls that I bought a while back and just stuck in the trunk of the wife's car in case I ever need to change a tire and I'm not dressed for it.

So I'll get those out and give it a shot. I don't like working in gloves. And I'm pretty sure I'm not going to like working in coveralls. But if it'll help, it'll be well worth it!

And@DavidBarkey I'm sure you're right. The molybdenum in gear oil smells overpowering when it's not burnt. I can only imagine what it must be like after it's burnt.

Bob

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2024 5:11 pm
by Eugen
I wrote a fairly long reply and lost it when the browser page got refreshed somehow :headbash:.

Anywho, from my limited experience with small diesel engines, these things need attention for starting: fuel shutoff valve needs 12v continuously, short battery cable bolted directly as opposed to jumper cables, and 20 seconds of juice to the glow plugs before cranking. Pump not necessary if diesel comes from above the engine. One of my diesels would not start with jumper cables, periid. Looking forward to seeing it running!

I too dislike strongly the smell of all fuels, and engine oil, and exhaust fumes. :cheers:

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:49 pm
by MattA
If your looking for relief from breathing the exhaust fumes, I found my 3M paint respirator worked great while I was attempting to tune my vanguards carb and governor.

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2024 10:28 pm
by thebuildist
I got my new electric fuel pump and combo fuel filter/separator installed. While I was at it, I ordered some 1/4" steel line and a double flaring tool, so that they're piped together properly.

Fuel priming up to the point of the injector pump wend quickly and easily.

Hooked up the battery, turned it over 4 or 5 cycles, and still no fuel up to the injectors.

So I took off the cover that contains the engine shutoff lever, to confirm that the throttle/shutoff rack slides freely. (Thanks, YouTube!) and: it's locked solid. So I'll have to pull the injector pump and see if I can free it up.

But, one step at a time, steady as she goes. Unless I hit "a wall", I figure I'll have it running in a couple weeks or so.

Bob

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2024 8:10 pm
by thebuildist
Well, now I've had the privilege of tearing down and (hopefully) re-assembling an injector pump.

I didn't enjoy it. My British friends would call it "fiddly." Very fiddly.

I couldn't find precisely the correct manual or video for it, but I watched a couple that were consistent enough that I was able to apply the knowledge to this one.

It turns out that each of the 3 "pumping units" are actually small (5/32" or so) precision ground pins reciprocating inside precision honed sleeves. The pin is the piston, and the sleeve is the cylinder.
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The pin has a vertical slot (think keyway) and the sleeve has a hole in its "cylinder wall" near its midpoint. So if the pin is rotated to a certain position in the sleeve, then the "keyway" slot can draw fuel through the cylinder wall hole, and with each stroke a bit of that fuel will be "pushed" upward to the injector. But if it's rotated to a different position, then the keyway is away from the hole in the cylinder wall, and no fuel is pumped.

So the volume of fuel is controlled by rotating that pin.

The pin is indexed inside a gear-toothed collar.
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And moving the control rack rotates that collar.
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So sliding the rack rotates the pins, which causes them to pumpeither a little or a lot of fuel.



But those 1 inch long pins sitting in those 1 inch long sleeves, with maybe a thousandth of clearance were very solidly glued in place. They couldn't move up or down, they couldn't rotate. So the geared collars couldn't rotate, so the rack couldn't slide.

I had to drive the pins down out of the sleeves with a punch. (Delicately). Cleaned everything up, washed it in gasoline, lubed it all up with wd-40, and reassembled everything. Now the pins reciprocate and/or rotate freely. Rack slides effortlessly.

It'll probably be Thursday before I can put it all back together and confirm it pumps when the engine turns over.

Assuming it does, I expect to have a runner!

Bob

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2024 10:18 pm
by RoamingGnome
Congratulations on your first Injection pump rebuild... :worship:

As a side note before you give it it's first start up make sure you have something you can use to cover the air intake to smother the engine - just in case there any issues with the fuel rack getting stuck at full throttle, every diesel shop I've worked in has a story of a rebuilt injection pump with a stuck fuel rack that couldn't be shut down because it was instantly locked at full throttle once it started... :pullhair:

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2024 10:26 pm
by Harry
thebuildist wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 8:10 pm Well, now I've had the privilege of tearing down and (hopefully) re-assembling an injector pump.

I didn't enjoy it. My British friends would call it "fiddly." Very fiddly.

I couldn't find precisely the correct manual or video for it, but I watched a couple that were consistent enough that I was able to apply the knowledge to this one.

It turns out that each of the 3 "pumping units" are actually small (5/32" or so) precision ground pins reciprocating inside precision honed sleeves. The pin is the piston, and the sleeve is the cylinder.

image.png

The pin has a vertical slot (think keyway) and the sleeve has a hole in its "cylinder wall" near its midpoint. So if the pin is rotated to a certain position in the sleeve, then the "keyway" slot can draw fuel through the cylinder wall hole, and with each stroke a bit of that fuel will be "pushed" upward to the injector. But if it's rotated to a different position, then the keyway is away from the hole in the cylinder wall, and no fuel is pumped.

So the volume of fuel is controlled by rotating that pin.

The pin is indexed inside a gear-toothed collar.

image.png

And moving the control rack rotates that collar.

image.png

So sliding the rack rotates the pins, which causes them to pumpeither a little or a lot of fuel.



But those 1 inch long pins sitting in those 1 inch long sleeves, with maybe a thousandth of clearance were very solidly glued in place. They couldn't move up or down, they couldn't rotate. So the geared collars couldn't rotate, so the rack couldn't slide.

I had to drive the pins down out of the sleeves with a punch. (Delicately). Cleaned everything up, washed it in gasoline, lubed it all up with wd-40, and reassembled everything. Now the pins reciprocate and/or rotate freely. Rack slides effortlessly.

It'll probably be Thursday before I can put it all back together and confirm it pumps when the engine turns over.

Assuming it does, I expect to have a runner!

Bob
Bob your a braver man than I. I would not have the patience to do the fiddly work, plus I’m always saying my hands just don’t work like they use to. I commend you on your patience and workmanship. :thumbsup: :peace: Harry

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 6:05 am
by DavidBarkey
Well done Bob . I found a place in UK that sell rebuild kits for small deisel injector pumps . I plan on doing the Kubota 2 cyl. in the bride before firing it up.

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 9:24 am
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2024 6:05 am Well done Bob . I found a place in UK that sell rebuild kits for small deisel injector pumps . I plan on doing the Kubota 2 cyl. in the bride before firing it up.
Please share the link Dave. :wave3:

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 7:54 pm
by DavidBarkey
https://injectionpumps.co.uk//
Kit came Royal mail. A red jacket with big fuzzy black hat put in a paper air plain and through it hard to Canada .

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 8:32 pm
by JSinMO
@thebuildist Good work Bob! Should be a nice running engine. Most of my experience is with gas engines but I have seen a run away diesel. They go wide open real fast! @RoamingGnome has a good idea to have something ready to put over the air intake just in case. I’ve seen guys keep a piece of wood bigger then the intake close by for the first start up.

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 11:06 am
by thebuildist
Wellllll...

I have bad news.

And worse news.

It's time to point out, "This deal always seemed too good to be true."

Oh well.

I may have mentioned that I bought this on FB from a guy at a shop who works on big diesel trucks. What you might call a "diesel mechanic". I presumed it was at his shop because he had worked on stripping down an old bucket truck, and this equipment came off. It was clearly removed at least partly with a torch.

And he told me, "the guy said it runs fine, but I don't know for sure."

And then it had a drained oil pan. How odd. Even for long term storage, why drain the oil?

Anyway, the bad news is, my reassembled injector pump is only putting out fuel on 2 out of 3 lines. Maybe I got something installed wrong? Or it's not sealing or whatever? I'll have to tear it apart again to see.

But with fuel to two cylinders, it really shimmies over pretty good, and ALMOST starts up.

But that's where the worse news comes in. A really loud clunking noise with every rotation, once it's spinning over pretty fast. It took my ears just a second to analyze it and tell me what it is:

A rod knock. A bad one.

Now it makes sense: THAT'S why it was at a diesel mechanic's shop. THAT'S why the oil had all been drained out of it.

I haven't decided yet how to proceed. If I could order rod bearings for 20 bucks or so, it would probably be worth standing it on one end and pulling the pan, and putting in a new bearing. Then see if I can fix the pump, then see how it runs/sounds. Check for blowby/etc. to determine the condition of the engine overall.

But if it's hundreds of dollars, if I have to buy a whole rebuild kit, then I'm probably going to let it go and move on.

Oh well.

Bob

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 11:27 am
by thebuildist
$53 for a set of standard rod bearings. I guess I have to at least pull the pan off and see what I find.

Bob

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 11:51 am
by Harry
Bob I feel your pain. I’ve been caught up in one of those before. It ran when I parked it deals. I’m sure you’ll get it sorted out and be ahead of the game. :peace: Harry

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 10:49 pm
by JSinMO
Dang I was hoping you got a good one. But it still may be salvageable. If what you’re thinking is right I’d be interested to know if there is any indication the diesel shop had the pan off. Loose pan bolts, broken gaskets? If the crank journals look ok maybe it just needs bearing maybe the guy just didn’t want to pay for repairs.

I’ve got my fingers crossed on this one. Looking forward to what you find.

Re: New to me: Kubota D650 15HP

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 11:19 am
by thebuildist
This morning on my workbench I found an "extra" part left over from the pump rebuild. The round spacer that goes in between the cam follower and the "piston" shaft. Without that spacer the piston isn't moving enough to pump.

So that explains that.

Still have to pull the oil pan some time.

Bob