Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

My 1974 446 has got me baffled. I have used this tractor for 4 years, and have had few real problems, but this has me stumped. I drove it onto the tractor lift for maintenence, and before I did any work to it, when I started it back up to move it a bit forward, it wouldn't move...at all! So I tried the lift lever for the deck, and nothing. My heart dropped, as I am thinking the pump went out. I looked, and plenty of oil in the tank, lovejoy spinning, etc. Drive handle in low, etc. So.... I bought, and changed the pump (After removing engine, and everything in the way) I put on the lovejoy, with new spider joiner, and after filling the oil, gave the starter a spin....and still no hydraulics. Only thing I can think of is it is bypassing completely through the travel control?? I have zero hydraulics. Any ideas, guys? I have swapped the pump on my 1974 646, so it isn't like this is new to me, but I am pretty flustered with this one.-------Metalguy

@metalguy I feel your pain. Last week a neighbor called for help. His sawmill powered by a 40 hp Kubota would not start after he serviced it. During the drive to hos place, a mental check lost and wiring layout was thought through. On my arrival, he wasn't in the shed, I turned the ignition switch, nothing happened not even a click. Checking the battery voltage returned a reading of just over 10 volt. A short time on jumper cables and the engine started. His system had an electrical cutout when the voltage dropped below a certain point.

My first thought about your tractor was, "the high/low gear selector is in neutral. Buy reading on you have no deck movement with indicates no hydraulic pressure.

I rule out control issues because the lift control and forward reverse systems are separate. I am falling asleep while mid typing. Maybe I will dream up answer tonight and have a suggestion in the morning.

It's hard to have an opinion without more detailed troubleshooting info. Like, here are some questions/suggestions that come to mind
1 you said you gave the starter a spin. What happens if you run the engine for a minute, while moving the lever(s) so you chase any air out of the system?
2 is the pump shaft moving for sure?
3 did you try to see if you got oil returning to the tank? Either by removing the return hose from the tank, or by peeping inside the tank.
4 are the tcv spools moving when you actuate the levers?

I guess it would be possible for the TCV to have some sort of an internal failure but I can't think of a way to test without replacing it. Seems very unlikely, but still possible.

My guess is, the line from the reservoir tank to the pump is blocked some how.

Noel

I did not wake up with a solution. Eugen and Noel both have valid points. I have dealt with collapsing hoses in the past, and jave learned to look for sympoms cuased by one. They will sometimes look and function ok until a demand for full flow is encountered. An example would be looks good at idle speed but collapses at full throttle.
When the oil is flowing properly, turbulence can be observed in the tank.

As an engineer service tec said years age. Let's not make this complicated by over thinking it. Check off the simple stuff first. Is the final drive in low range. Jack up the rear of the tractor and make it stable. Start the motor and move the speed control. Did the wheels turn at all, even a little bit?

Another thought is some hydraulic pumps can be configured so that the inlet and outlet ports are switchable. This involves taking the pump apart to reconfigure the input shaft position.

metalguy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 9:47 pm My 1974 446 has got me baffled. I have used this tractor for 4 years, and have had few real problems, but this has me stumped. I drove it onto the tractor lift for maintenence, and before I did any work to it, when I started it back up to move it a bit forward, it wouldn't move...at all! So I tried the lift lever for the deck, and nothing. My heart dropped, as I am thinking the pump went out. I looked, and plenty of oil in the tank, lovejoy spinning, etc. Drive handle in low, etc. So.... I bought, and changed the pump (After removing engine, and everything in the way) I put on the lovejoy, with new spider joiner, and after filling the oil, gave the starter a spin....and still no hydraulics. Only thing I can think of is it is bypassing completely through the travel control?? I have zero hydraulics. Any ideas, guys? I have swapped the pump on my 1974 646, so it isn't like this is new to me, but I am pretty flustered with this one.-------Metalguy

First thing first . Did you try the lift cylinder at all to validate "no hydra" ? Second, are you 100 % sure your new pump is not the wrong direction . There are CKW and CCKW pumps .
Pumps don't just stop pumping , they loose pressure and volume . Unless there is a drive failure like a key or seal failure .
Is there any squeeling from the hydra on use.
Try rolling the tractor with the trans in low and the engine off and the travell selector handle in neutral. See if there is resistance from the hydradalic drive motor like when it over run on a hill .

Lots of good suggestions. I'm thinking though that reversing the in/out of the pump is not easy on Case tractors because the inlet is usually a different size and more over, straight pipe coming out of the pump with 3/4 suction hose on it. One needs to modify the original setup quite a lot to reverse it.

Anyway, at this point step by step careful troubleshooting is what's needed.

Wow, guys, thanks for the replies. Ok, when running, there is no movement when in gear (low range), and the lift will not move at all. When the pump on my 646 died, it just lost more and more pressure until it would barely move, but the three point would still go up and dow, just not much force. The pump I have in it is the correct drive direction, and even has a little arrow showing direction that is correct. I will check for turbulence in the tank whiloe running, great idea! If there is some kind of air bubble, preventing flow/pressure, how would I relieve it? The suction line to the pump is new, and not collapsed. Does the pump need to be primed? Never had to do that. The pump itself is from Surplus supply, same type I put on the 646, with a lesser, and more appropriate volume. I'll try and get on it this weekend, and see how it goes. Please keep the inquiries/suggestions coming. I just know it has to be something very simple, just don't know what it is. I'll keep digging until I get it figured! -------Metalguy

Oh, so you didn't install a used original pump. The most important troubleshooting step now is to make sure you got oil coming back into the tank.

If the pump doesn't push oil either the gears are reversed, or it's broken, or it has no oil coming to it. Most new pumps are reversible flow by reconfiguring the internal gears. Can you point to the pump you got from surplus?


Here's an excerpt from a regular hydro pump we can get here at the local store, as an example how it can be reversed.

Just to back up a step... the original problem was no hyd - no drive + no attachment lift (suspected no flow)
the pump was changed and still no flow...

I would be tempted to check the old pump now that it's out of the machine - you should be able to turn the pump by hand, cover the inlet port with your hand and feel some suction... my initial guess would be something maybe stuck in the relief valve allowing all the flow to just return to tank.

See if you can find an online service manual for your machine and look through the hydraulic system... I quickly looked in the technical section here but could only find a Hyd troubleshooting guide... https://manuals.ccigt.com/ServiceManual ... marked.pdf

Well. It sounds like the trouble happened all of a sudden with the original pump. So the second pump is not the trouble. The drive system is not the trouble, because the lift cylinder doesn’t work either. So, in my mind there is a blockage some where, that happened all of a sudden.
I’m still just guessing. Looking in the tank to see oil flow is the first thing to do.
Does this tractor have the hill holding valve, can’t remember name of it, or the flow control valve ?
Maybe the flow control valve got into the, no flow position by accident. If it has a no flow position. I don’t know anything about those valves. Just a guess again.

Noel

I’m with you Noel. Sounds like a problem before the new pump. Possibly there was nothing wrong with the old pump. Thinking out loud here, a test station to hook up a pump and test the flow would be nice. Harry

Like @RoamingGnome says, you will feel suction on your thumb if you turn the pump by hand. I also test it by pouring some 15w40 oil in the inlet and turning it by hand and covering the outlet. Even a tired pump will create enough pressure to push the oil past your thumb.

Hey all, if anything is so stuck anywhere along the circuit that it does not allow the pump to push oil the engine dies immediately. Those of you who have the hydraulic PTO will have noticed how you cannot start the engine even if you have quick attach fittings on the PTO, and if you don't have the hose to loop the hydraulic PTO, and if the lever is not in the middle. Many a times my kids slipped the PTO lever to one side and I was stumped as to why the tractor isn't starting.

Harry wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 11:31 am I’m with you Noel. Sounds like a problem before the new pump. Possibly there was nothing wrong with the old pump. Thinking out loud here, a test station to hook up a pump and test the flow would be nice. Harry

for a simple test of the original pump - you could put it on the bench with the inlet port facing up, - pour some oil into the inlet port and turn the pump shaft - oil should disappear into the pump and come out the outlet port on the bottom...

Big failures like a pump or motor grenading generally cause some (lots of) noise... and give some warning signs before total failure - a broken spring on a relief valve or a relief valve stuck open could cause sudden loss of pressure with very little noise or warning...

I am suspecting the relief valve. You guys are awesome! I'll first see if there is movement in the tank while running, then look into the relief. I have complete service manuals for the tractor, so that should help a lot. I really want to get this tractor back to running, and kicking butt again. My little 130 has been doing the mowing duties, and it needs to rest. -----Metalguy

There is no movement in the tank that I can tell. I have it about half full, but it isn't going down, so it should be ok for tests. After looking at the TCV, how the heck do you get at the pressure relief valve with it in the tractor? It looks like it has to be pulled to get at it? It is the one under the large hex cap, correct? The diagram looks to be a ball seat affair, so not much to the actual valve itself. It is getting to it that seems like the tough part. I suppose I can lift the front of the tractor up and get at it that way best.---------Metalguy

You are correct metalguy, it’s a bugger getting in there to adjust the relief valve. I do mine on the lift so I don’t have to get up and down so much. Take your time and it will be easy. Harry

metalguy wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 5:29 pm There is no movement in the tank that I can tell. I have it about half full, but it isn't going down, so it should be ok for tests. After looking at the TCV, how the heck do you get at the pressure relief valve with it in the tractor? It looks like it has to be pulled to get at it? It is the one under the large hex cap, correct? The diagram looks to be a ball seat affair, so not much to the actual valve itself. It is getting to it that seems like the tough part. I suppose I can lift the front of the tractor up and get at it that way best.---------Metalguy

If there is no movement in the tank , it is not the releaf valve . If it was stuck open you would have flow and see movement in the tank . If it was stuck closed you would blow a seal when dead heading cylinder .
The problem has to be at the pump . Possible air lock and not priming . I still question if the original pump was bad . Did you do this test , ? Quote
for a simple test of the original pump - you could put it on the bench with the inlet port facing up, - pour some oil into the inlet port and turn the pump shaft - oil should disappear into the pump and come out the outlet port on the bottom... Quote
How was the pump key in the old pump ?
Did you take the old pump apart to see if it failed and ejected it inners into the system ?
Did you remove the dust seal from the inlet of the new pump before installing ?
Something does not add up .

When you changed out the pump, did you drain the tank first? If so how did you drain it?

The reason I'm asking is, it's hard to imagine the return line being plugged on the way back to the tank. Because that would develop so much back pressure that a line would blow or you wouldn't be able to start the tractor.

But if the suction/supply line that feeds the inlet of the pump were blocked, then the pump would happily spin but there'd be no fluid movement whatsoever.

Now it will destroy your pump if that happens in general terms. So I don't mean to say that all is well. But it is possible for that line to get plugged either the line or the bottom of the tank...

And that would give you these symptoms: no hydraulics whatsoever.

So if you remove the feed line to the pump the tank should just drain its oil all over the ground. Right? Would yours do that right now?

Bob

I agree that this is a strange one and just my 2 cents....... I know the pump coupling was said to be replaced but in my experience a total no hydraulic complaint usually points to the coupling assembly.

Bob

Ok, here is where I'm at: I accidently engaged the hydraulic PTO , and didn't notice it, then started the engine (My PTO has quick disconnects, no connecting hose between them) . What then happened was this: the engine started, and burst the hose that was on the outlet side of the new pump. What I got from this, other than having to buy a new hose, is that the new pump develops pressure. The second thing is that the hose that burst had had a good amount of damage prior to it bursting, and had been chafing against the frame for years, by the looks of it. So... here is what I think happened: I think this hose had a layer tat came loose inside, stopping flow, and because of that, I had a zero flow condition. Many of the tests were from just cranking the engine on the battery, and not actually running. I do know the PTO was not engaged this whole time, as I had checked it numerous times, and it was not. I must have bumped it in the crowded garage while swapping out the pump. I'll know more soon, but I am dead in the water until my new hose comes in. The takeaways are these: The new pump, lovejoy connecter, and all work, and provide pressure, so those can be ruled out. I will install the new hose when it gets here, and test again, then go from there. I am hoping it was the entire problem, but will see.... Someone asked how I drained the Resevoir before. I simply removed the supply hose from the pump side, and drained into a used oil container. I have not tested the old pump, and it is probably fine, and will check it later when I have time. Thank you all for the comments! Ruling out the relief valve due to no movement in the tank was excellent. It made sense, for sure. I have been looking through the diagrams in my shop manuals, and see how that all works out through the various items added to the tractor. Very helpful. --------Metalguy

Metalguy,

I do hope this solves your problem, but my question would be, if the high pressure hose lost some of the internal lining and is lodged in the tcv, then why didn't the hose burst when you first started the engine with the old pump and found that there were no hydraulics? Perhaps there was some oil flow, just not enough to get the tractor to move or give much flow to the the lift circuit but not a total blockage as to build enough pressure to blow the hose as dead heading the pto circuit did? Do you plan to disassemble the tcv to verify and clean then?

I would definitely recommend that you make up a loop hose with quick connectors to install between the work ports of your pto valve. It that lever gets caught on a tree branch for instance with the engine running at full throttle it doesn't just kill the engine or burst a good high pressure hose, the usual result is a pump split in half.

Bob

So just a thought...are you sure the pump is even rotating? I would check out the key has not sheared.

Guys, the problem is solved. The line from the pump (pressure side) was the entire problem, it turns out. The inside had come loose, and caused a no-flow condition. I had already replaced the pump, so it has a new pump too, so I guess all has worked out ok. Thankyou all for your help, and advice! I guess things don't last forever, and need replaced from time to time. --------Metalguy