Kohler K361

Troubleshooting, rebuilding, repairing Kohler engines.
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Eugen Canada
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Re: Kohler K361

Post by Eugen »

DavidBarkey wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:54 pm If you need to do guides , I have a whole pile of reamers for just that and seat cuter . Look up seat locking by peening . If the seat are still tight it might be wise to do before putting back together . As for guide , you maybe able to source them if needed by measurement . Replacement K341 guide maybe the same guide .
Thanks Dave! I appreciate it! If I can get myself to leave the comfort of my tent I'll come by! :rofl:

Good idea about the seats, I'll do that. I might reuse these valves, maybe hone them a bit on the valve grinder. I recently got a neway kit from Orilia
but it came with only one cutter, the 46 and 31 degree angles. I'm thinking this should be fine to touch the seats a little.

Measured the guides and valves, I'll put the numbers here, may as well keep a log of refreshing this engine.
PositionGuide IDValve ODWear (ID-OD)Wear limit spec
Intake0.3130.31050.00250.006
Exhaust0.31450.30850.0060.008
I'm inclined to leave the guides alone. I do think there's a little problem with these guides. They were easy to pull out of the head, whereas in the service manual they talk about heating up the head in the oven to get them out, and when you install new ones, to put them in the freezer and press them in. I gotta think of a way to make them be tight in the head.
Case 224, 444, 644, 680E
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Re: Kohler K361

Post by DavidBarkey »

@Eugen those guide need to be a tight fit . Do you have knurling tool for your lathe ? Knurl and loctite 620 If you need I have a small knurling tool .
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Re: Kohler K361

Post by Eugen »

DavidBarkey wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:14 pm @Eugen those guide need to be a tight fit . Do you have knurling tool for your lathe ? Knurl and loctite 620 If you need I have a small knurling tool .
I'm honestly afraid to knurl them on account I'll destroy them in the process. :109:


I'm thinking just blue permatex and just press them in. :writing: :geek:
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Re: Kohler K361

Post by myerslawnandgarden »

Eugen wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:42 pm
DavidBarkey wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:54 pm If you need to do guides , I have a whole pile of reamers for just that and seat cuter . Look up seat locking by peening . If the seat are still tight it might be wise to do before putting back together . As for guide , you maybe able to source them if needed by measurement . Replacement K341 guide maybe the same guide .
Thanks Dave! I appreciate it! If I can get myself to leave the comfort of my tent I'll come by! :rofl:

Good idea about the seats, I'll do that. I might reuse these valves, maybe hone them a bit on the valve grinder. I recently got a neway kit from Orilia
but it came with only one cutter, the 46 and 31 degree angles. I'm thinking this should be fine to touch the seats a little.

Measured the guides and valves, I'll put the numbers here, may as well keep a log of refreshing this engine.
PositionGuide IDValve ODWear (ID-OD)Wear limit spec
Intake0.3130.31050.00250.006
Exhaust0.31450.30850.0060.008
I'm inclined to leave the guides alone. I do think there's a little problem with these guides. They were easy to pull out of the head, whereas in the service manual they talk about heating up the head in the oven to get them out, and when you install new ones, to put them in the freezer and press them in. I gotta think of a way to make them be tight in the head.
Loose guides were one of the common problems with this engine as I recall, I think that back in the day there was a repair kit that contained two guides that were slightly oversize. Again, it's been a long time and I will do my best to remember to find the old service bulletins.

Bob
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Re: Kohler K361

Post by DavidBarkey »

Eugen wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:11 pm
DavidBarkey wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:14 pm @Eugen those guide need to be a tight fit . Do you have knurling tool for your lathe ? Knurl and loctite 620 If you need I have a small knurling tool .
I'm honestly afraid to knurl them on account I'll destroy them in the process. :109:


I'm thinking just blue permatex and just press them in. :writing: :geek:
The blue doe not have the holding power and will not take the heat loctite 620 will.
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Re: Kohler K361

Post by Eugen »

myerslawnandgarden wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:13 pm Loose guides were one of the common problems with this engine as I recall, I think that back in the day there was a repair kit that contained two guides that were slightly oversize. Again, it's been a long time and I will do my best to remember to find the old service bulletins.

Bob
It would be nice to have a look at those documents but would not want to inconvenience you over this Bob. One day if you come across them please upload them here.

@DavidBarkey I thought some more about it and I'll try to avoid any glue so that it could be serviced in the future. I'm thinking of adding a little material to the guides and turning them on the lathe with the tolerance needed for a press fit. Maybe JB weld? Not sure what they're made of, steel or bronze?
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Re: Kohler K361

Post by Eugen »

I scratched the bottom of one of the valve guides, not bronze, but steel. I think it would be better to add material to them, maybe with a little welding, and then turn them on the lathe. I'd rather do this, although more work, than knurling it, which would have more of a chance to damage the head when pressed in. Wish I had a TIG welder now, for fine work like this. :rolleyes:
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Re: Kohler K361

Post by propane1 »

If you weld it, is there a chance of warping it crooked and not be useable. Just wondering, cause I don’t know.

Noel
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Re: Kohler K361

Post by Eugen »

propane1 wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:50 am If you weld it, is there a chance of warping it crooked and not be useable. Just wondering, cause I don’t know.

Noel
I don't know Noel. With a TIG welder I could add a drop of material and let it cool, then do it again. Maybe I can do this with the wire welder too. Now that I know they're made of steel I could even try to turn new ones on the lathe.

BTW, I looked for some bronze bushing stock online, cannot find anything here in Canada. Of course I found some in the US, and priced very reasonably, but they don't ship to Canada :((

Edit: I did find bronze bar here too, $50 for 4 inches. It is what it is. :sigh:
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Re: Kohler K361

Post by Eugen »

Well, I thought I might be wrong about steel valve guides, and I was. Fortunately the internet knows more than I do about everything. Found this short blurb about materials used for valve guides, and it sounds very plausible to me. The short of it is, bronze or cast iron.

Knowing this, the current valve guides must be cast iron. Knowing it's cast iron, makes me leery of welding it. :rofl: fine, we're getting somewhere, bumping into walls in the dark. :giggle:



Valve guides - Materials and usage
Material choices for guides are down to two distinct types - cast iron and bronze. Yes, cast iron. NOT steel as described in many adverts and by vendors. Never have been, never will be. These are as fitted to the various A-series cylinder heads as standard in all applications. Cast iron is used because it is a very dissimilar metal from any used in valve manufacture - important to eliminate galling that causes seizure of the valves in the guides - is softer, yet resilient enough to wear well. Bronze, on the other hand, is a very general description as there are a variety of 'bronzes' used by various folk. In days gone by, the bronze base type used was 'PB1' (also known as 'Navy Bronze') - a phosphor-bronze alloy that was very orange in colour, and very soft, used primarily in race engines. Unfortunately they wore out very quickly. Silicone-brass content bronze is probably the most popular now - often with a high aluminium or manganese content - is very yellow/gold in colour; modern technology facilitating very controlled manufacture of these specialist alloys.

Valve materials are very varied, but essentially there are three groups. The first is the old-style standard road spec, second up-rated standard road spec, and lastly race spec. The material types for both road spec valves are both complicated and irrelevant. All you need to know is that the early types had plain finished stems and seats because leaded fuel was very kind to them, the up-rated (or modern) ones have chrome-plated stems with triple-material heads giving a super-hard seat area - both to improve longevity, especially in later years where unleaded fuel is used.

Race spec valves are almost universally EN214N stainless steel. Despite what folk have been lead to believe, they are generally not as hardwearing as the standard type valves. This material is used because it is easy to form and machine yet resilient enough to perform reliably in the combustion chamber's extremely harsh environment. Used in their 'raw' form, they're OK when used with leaded fuel, effective lead-substitute treated fuel, or proper race fuels but wear very quickly when unleaded fuel is used. Paul Ivey's 'Specialised Valves' company have been chrome-plating the stems for many years - instigated on his Rimflo valves so folk could use them in the standard cast iron guides. However, chrome plating is an expensive process and difficult to apply correctly without causing weakening of the valve stem - something Paul Ivey found out early on - so up-to-date designs use Tuftriding or nito-carburising instead. The latter are easily identified by the grey/black finish it leaves.

Unleaded fuel is the bugbear as can be seen from the former text; largely because of the 'high-drying' solvents used in it. These are extremely abrasive, cleaning away any traces of normal lubrication - such as engine oil. Material mis-match between valves and guides will cause galling leading to seizure of the valve in the guide, exaggerated by the unleaded fuel thing. So which valves do you use with which guides?

Cast iron guides; use either standard road spec valves - preferably the up-rated, chrome-stemmed items for longevity - or race spec valves that have been chrome-stemmed. DO NOT use raw EN214N race valves - they will seize in the guides. It is possible to run the Tuftrided/nitro-carburised type valves in iron guides - but I have had mixed success with this, so cannot heartily recommend it.

Bronze guides; easy this as you can use any type of valve material you like. The earlier standard road spec valves that have no surface-treatment on the stems will wear out quite quickly though - especially on the more modern manganese/silicone-brass alloys as they are very hard.

As to where to use which - the controlling factor is more about rpm than anything else. I have already stated that the road spec valves are predominantly multi-piece - not only the way the heads are formed from different materials, but by the way they are made. A manufacturing process called 'fusion welding' is used - the stem and head are two different pieces. Each are spun up to high speed then pressed together. The friction developed creates heat so immense it physically welds the two pieces together - hence 'fusion welding'. Convenient for mass-manufacture of valves having the same stem diameter with a multitude of optional head diameters it may be, but it adds a weak point. This process negates the more expensive process of forging the valve heads where only a limited number of diameters can be turned out of one 'blank', but the joint is a weak link. For road use, they are not a problem. But when higher rpm is used along with the necessary higher strength valve springs to stave off valve bounce, the valve head can break off. Serious engine damage ensues.

So where is the limit? Difficult to give a definitive answer that won't have someone beating a path to my door to sue me over engine damaged accrued because of my ruling. Generally though, most road-going engines will be fine on the road spec valves - particularly the later spec ones. It's constant high rpm use that's the killer. The odd visit to 7,500rpm won't hurt them IF the valve springs used are up to the job and correctly fitted, and missed gear changes are a rarity. The English racing series 'Mighty Minis' for the 1.3i single point injection cars use the standard MG Metro road spec valves (very good quality) where the engines are held against the rev limiters constantly (6,500rpm); as far as I'm aware there hasn't been a dropped valve yet. Continual and protracted visits to 7,500rpm and above will have the heads popping off their stems after not too long. Therefore ANYTHING that is going to see any kind of race use - autotesting, pylon racing, autocross, sprinting, hill-climbing, rallying, circuit racing, etc. - on a regular basis and where sportier profiled cams are used really requires the race spec valves if long faces are to be avoided.
Case 224, 444, 644, 680E
Kubota B26 :blush:
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