Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

Eugen wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:09 pm Do you guys have any experience with the Kohler K361? Asking for a friend of a friend

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:43 pm

Never seen one up here , only the odd one for sale south of the border . A little more on the rare side form what I can see .
Why did you find one ?

Eugen wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:09 pm Do you guys have any experience with the Kohler K361? Asking for a friend of a friend

myerslawnandgarden wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:36 pm I've worked on a few, not one of Kohler's more successful designs. Economy (Power King) used them as well as Ariens.

Bob

myerslawnandgarden wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:54 pm Dave,

It's been years, but as I remember both the valve guides and seats commonly came loose in the aluminum heads. I know there were several service bulletins published regarding the subject which I probably have on microfiche. I'll take a look and supply any additional information that I can. The block itself was the usual bullet proof Kohler cast iron.

Bob

Eugen wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:02 pm Thanks Noel, indeed I've come across all those reports about the valve seat problems. So, aluminum head with steel valve seat inserts. People say that if the head's damaged, bye bye engine, as those heads can't be found.

Not sure what to say about the fuel consumption, you know how it is, you want more power, you pay more.

propane1 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:07 pm I wonder if it could be converted back to a k341?


Noel

Jancoe wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:16 pm Just doing a little poking around at the k361 on the net and it does seem to have its issues but given the issues it still seems like a desired engine. Came across a forum that people were referring work to this company. Seems they do alot of work to them. Just passing this info along.
http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/a1e ... headrepair

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DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:34 am The number one issue with valve seats in Aluminum heads is heat . Iron/ steel expands slower that aluminum but expands greater amount . So if it gets to hot , it will stretch the pocket it is in and come loose when cooled . This is metallurgy fact . Doesn't mater liquid or air cooled . Bronze is almost the exact same expansion rate making it a better choice . This is what happens to the Onan valve seat if run without oil filter seal . This also happen to all the other makes if the cooling system is plugged or is run lean and over heats . Some engines have better cooling that other so are less prone to it . The same can happen to valve guides in OHV engines if overheated due to cooling issues , typically mouse nest under fan shroud . This engine has a higher compression rate than it flat head counter part , so it will naturally run hotter . Making sure the head stays cool and run a slight bit rich will definitely help it out .
My 2 cents worth . You may keep the change .

Eugen wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:12 pm

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:34 am The number one issue with valve seats in Aluminum heads is heat . Iron/ steel expands slower that aluminum but expands greater amount . So if it gets to hot , it will stretch the pocket it is in and come loose when cooled . This is metallurgy fact . Doesn't mater liquid or air cooled . Bronze is almost the exact same expansion rate making it a better choice . This is what happens to the Onan valve seat if run without oil filter seal . This also happen to all the other makes if the cooling system is plugged or is run lean and over heats . Some engines have better cooling that other so are less prone to it . The same can happen to valve guides in OHV engines if overheated due to cooling issues , typically mouse nest under fan shroud . This engine has a higher compression rate than it flat head counter part , so it will naturally run hotter . Making sure the head stays cool and run a slight bit rich will definitely help it out .
My 2 cents worth . You may keep the change .

This is good info Dave, thanks! It seems that there is at least one company that offers brass valve seats for this engine. If it turns out that the steel valve seats came off I'll try to find some brass to turn new seats out of brass. Same with the valve guides?

Tried to start the engine last night using some starter fluid spray, but no go. It does have spark. The guy who sold it said he was able to start it with gas down the carb throat. Now I'm really curious what's inside.

Eugen wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:00 pm You know the Kohlers, they got the Automatic Compression Release, can't run a regular compression test. I'll think of something.

Eugen wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:01 pm

propane1 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:07 pm I wonder if it could be converted back to a k341?


Noel

I think the block is different, as it doesn't have valves like that.

Eugen wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:00 pm You know the Kohlers, they got the Automatic Compression Release, can't run a regular compression test. I'll think of something.

Jancoe wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:09 pm Humm? 18 on the piston for 18hp? Lol does the k341 have a 16 on the piston?

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Eugen wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:22 am I don't know if you guys have the same disease as I do, but ever since I was a kid it gave me GREAT pleasure to take things apart, much to my parents' chagrin. Couldn't resist opening this engine. You know every old engine is a bit of a lottery, and when it gets open, you wonder if you'll find some really bad stuff, or so so, or be surprised with something nice. So far no big bad stuff in this one. The valve seat inserts seem to be still solidly mounted in the head. The valve guides are easily pulled out, I guess by design. Haven't measured the guides or the valves yet, but on visual inspection they seem pretty good. Didn't get the micrometer out last night, but measured the bore with a telescoping gauge and the digital callipers, seems around 2.75", together with the fact that there is no .010 or .020 or .030 mark on the piston, it's most likely a STD piston. This is good news, there's room to grow.

Dave, the pistons of K341 and K361 seem to be identical, according to
http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/engspecs.htm

In fact, apart from the head, all specs seem the same as the K341. This is also good news, it means I can still find parts for a rebuild.

The not so good news is that the valve guides are somewhat loose, and if they don't measure well I'll have to make them out of bronze or something, as they're unobtanium. Also, there is evidence of PO having been in the head, there's orange high-temp RV silicone everywhere. There are some o-rings which I need to source too, item 28 in the picture below.

Screenshot 2022-12-15 at 11.19.20.png


I think you're right @DavidBarkey about the wide base. I haven't measured the base, but it does seem wider then the K321.

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:54 pm If you need to do guides , I have a whole pile of reamers for just that and seat cuter . Look up seat locking by peening . If the seat are still tight it might be wise to do before putting back together . As for guide , you maybe able to source them if needed by measurement . Replacement K341 guide maybe the same guide .

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:14 pm @Eugen those guide need to be a tight fit . Do you have knurling tool for your lathe ? Knurl and loctite 620 If you need I have a small knurling tool .

Eugen wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:42 pm

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:54 pm If you need to do guides , I have a whole pile of reamers for just that and seat cuter . Look up seat locking by peening . If the seat are still tight it might be wise to do before putting back together . As for guide , you maybe able to source them if needed by measurement . Replacement K341 guide maybe the same guide .

Thanks Dave! I appreciate it! If I can get myself to leave the comfort of my tent I'll come by!

Good idea about the seats, I'll do that. I might reuse these valves, maybe hone them a bit on the valve grinder. I recently got a neway kit from Orilia
but it came with only one cutter, the 46 and 31 degree angles. I'm thinking this should be fine to touch the seats a little.

Measured the guides and valves, I'll put the numbers here, may as well keep a log of refreshing this engine.

Position	Guide ID	Valve OD	Wear (ID-OD)	Wear limit spec
Intake	0.313	0.3105	0.0025	0.006
Exhaust	0.3145	0.3085	0.006	0.008

I'm inclined to leave the guides alone. I do think there's a little problem with these guides. They were easy to pull out of the head, whereas in the service manual they talk about heating up the head in the oven to get them out, and when you install new ones, to put them in the freezer and press them in. I gotta think of a way to make them be tight in the head.

Eugen wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:11 pm

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:14 pm @Eugen those guide need to be a tight fit . Do you have knurling tool for your lathe ? Knurl and loctite 620 If you need I have a small knurling tool .

I'm honestly afraid to knurl them on account I'll destroy them in the process.


I'm thinking just blue permatex and just press them in.

myerslawnandgarden wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:13 pm Loose guides were one of the common problems with this engine as I recall, I think that back in the day there was a repair kit that contained two guides that were slightly oversize. Again, it's been a long time and I will do my best to remember to find the old service bulletins.

Bob

propane1 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:50 am If you weld it, is there a chance of warping it crooked and not be useable. Just wondering, cause I don’t know.

Noel

Valve guides - Materials and usage
Material choices for guides are down to two distinct types - cast iron and bronze. Yes, cast iron. NOT steel as described in many adverts and by vendors. Never have been, never will be. These are as fitted to the various A-series cylinder heads as standard in all applications. Cast iron is used because it is a very dissimilar metal from any used in valve manufacture - important to eliminate galling that causes seizure of the valves in the guides - is softer, yet resilient enough to wear well. Bronze, on the other hand, is a very general description as there are a variety of 'bronzes' used by various folk. In days gone by, the bronze base type used was 'PB1' (also known as 'Navy Bronze') - a phosphor-bronze alloy that was very orange in colour, and very soft, used primarily in race engines. Unfortunately they wore out very quickly. Silicone-brass content bronze is probably the most popular now - often with a high aluminium or manganese content - is very yellow/gold in colour; modern technology facilitating very controlled manufacture of these specialist alloys.

Valve materials are very varied, but essentially there are three groups. The first is the old-style standard road spec, second up-rated standard road spec, and lastly race spec. The material types for both road spec valves are both complicated and irrelevant. All you need to know is that the early types had plain finished stems and seats because leaded fuel was very kind to them, the up-rated (or modern) ones have chrome-plated stems with triple-material heads giving a super-hard seat area - both to improve longevity, especially in later years where unleaded fuel is used.

Race spec valves are almost universally EN214N stainless steel. Despite what folk have been lead to believe, they are generally not as hardwearing as the standard type valves. This material is used because it is easy to form and machine yet resilient enough to perform reliably in the combustion chamber's extremely harsh environment. Used in their 'raw' form, they're OK when used with leaded fuel, effective lead-substitute treated fuel, or proper race fuels but wear very quickly when unleaded fuel is used. Paul Ivey's 'Specialised Valves' company have been chrome-plating the stems for many years - instigated on his Rimflo valves so folk could use them in the standard cast iron guides. However, chrome plating is an expensive process and difficult to apply correctly without causing weakening of the valve stem - something Paul Ivey found out early on - so up-to-date designs use Tuftriding or nito-carburising instead. The latter are easily identified by the grey/black finish it leaves.

Unleaded fuel is the bugbear as can be seen from the former text; largely because of the 'high-drying' solvents used in it. These are extremely abrasive, cleaning away any traces of normal lubrication - such as engine oil. Material mis-match between valves and guides will cause galling leading to seizure of the valve in the guide, exaggerated by the unleaded fuel thing. So which valves do you use with which guides?

Cast iron guides; use either standard road spec valves - preferably the up-rated, chrome-stemmed items for longevity - or race spec valves that have been chrome-stemmed. DO NOT use raw EN214N race valves - they will seize in the guides. It is possible to run the Tuftrided/nitro-carburised type valves in iron guides - but I have had mixed success with this, so cannot heartily recommend it.

Bronze guides; easy this as you can use any type of valve material you like. The earlier standard road spec valves that have no surface-treatment on the stems will wear out quite quickly though - especially on the more modern manganese/silicone-brass alloys as they are very hard.

As to where to use which - the controlling factor is more about rpm than anything else. I have already stated that the road spec valves are predominantly multi-piece - not only the way the heads are formed from different materials, but by the way they are made. A manufacturing process called 'fusion welding' is used - the stem and head are two different pieces. Each are spun up to high speed then pressed together. The friction developed creates heat so immense it physically welds the two pieces together - hence 'fusion welding'. Convenient for mass-manufacture of valves having the same stem diameter with a multitude of optional head diameters it may be, but it adds a weak point. This process negates the more expensive process of forging the valve heads where only a limited number of diameters can be turned out of one 'blank', but the joint is a weak link. For road use, they are not a problem. But when higher rpm is used along with the necessary higher strength valve springs to stave off valve bounce, the valve head can break off. Serious engine damage ensues.

So where is the limit? Difficult to give a definitive answer that won't have someone beating a path to my door to sue me over engine damaged accrued because of my ruling. Generally though, most road-going engines will be fine on the road spec valves - particularly the later spec ones. It's constant high rpm use that's the killer. The odd visit to 7,500rpm won't hurt them IF the valve springs used are up to the job and correctly fitted, and missed gear changes are a rarity. The English racing series 'Mighty Minis' for the 1.3i single point injection cars use the standard MG Metro road spec valves (very good quality) where the engines are held against the rev limiters constantly (6,500rpm); as far as I'm aware there hasn't been a dropped valve yet. Continual and protracted visits to 7,500rpm and above will have the heads popping off their stems after not too long. Therefore ANYTHING that is going to see any kind of race use - autotesting, pylon racing, autocross, sprinting, hill-climbing, rallying, circuit racing, etc. - on a regular basis and where sportier profiled cams are used really requires the race spec valves if long faces are to be avoided.

Eugen wrote:When things are cleaned up they can reveal surprises. The guides must be cast iron with a bronze inner sleeve. Interesting.

DA41BBF8-89A8-4E2F-90FF-922D314112C1.jpeg

Jancoe wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 5:37 pm Time to get some bronze and make complete new valve guides.

Bronze valve guides are very nice for extended wear life, but they do have a slight problem with increased thermal expansion compared to iron guides. This requires machining the bronze guide to have slightly more running clearance with the valve stem to prevent valve seizure when the guides run hot. One function of the guide is to transfer heat from the valve stem into the head for cooling the valve. Smaller running clearance promotes better heat transfer.

Installation of bronze valve guide liner Installation of bronze valve guide liner Here we have an alternative to the bronze valve guide. You can install a thin bronze sleeve in the original iron guide to give the desired bronze bearing surface while avoiding the problem of excess thermal expansion. For engines with cast in place valve guides this is often done to reduce machining cost. For engines with replaceable guides this method can still be used to achieve minimal valve stem running clearance without excess thermal expansion or valve seizure.

propane1 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 11:57 am Interesting. Nice it have the tools to make stuff. I don’t have a lathe.


Noel

Eugen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:01 pm @propane1 what do you think about this? I sure would like one.

A04F78DA-8CAC-43F1-9E63-672A8D3235C7.jpeg

thebuildist wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:06 pm That's a South Bend 10" Jr. lathe. It's a pretty nice unit. Quick change gearbox, power feed in both axes. You're looking at a South Bend salesman's car, and it was an effective tactic.

There were some lathes that were arguably superior, or a better value than the South Bend, but South Bend became the gold standard.

I have its big brother, a 1941 South Bend Heavy 10. Similar overall, but built heavier, with a larger spindle with a larger through-hole and a factory taper attachment. Either it or my loader is my favorite possession. Depends on the weather.

You definitely do not want a Heavy 10 in the back of your station wagon.

Bob

thebuildist wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:25 am I can't imagine not having my lathe, though I've only had one for the last 10 years or so.

And there are very few things I need done that I can't find way to do, and I really do enjoy the process.

But I'm no master machinist. I'm too messy. I'm too impatient. I'm not methodical enough. I'm too eager to do it "quick and easy" instead of "perfect and repeatable." I care too much about "easy and functional" and not enough about producing "a work of art."

propane1 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 6:02 am I have never even used a lathe, couple people I know have them. I’ve made or fixed stuff at home here using back yard tools. Some fairly crude methods I used to make or fix stuff. A true machinist might have a stroke, looking at some of the stuff I’ve used and done. Hehehe. Certainly only minor stuff I’ve done. I did cut a slot in a 3/4 rod once for a woodruff key. I did it with a dremial tool, with the little cut off disks.

Short ramble.

Noel

Gordy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 6:10 pm

propane1 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 6:02 am I have never even used a lathe, couple people I know have them. I’ve made or fixed stuff at home here using back yard tools. Some fairly crude methods I used to make or fix stuff. A true machinist might have a stroke, looking at some of the stuff I’ve used and done. Hehehe. Certainly only minor stuff I’ve done. I did cut a slot in a 3/4 rod once for a woodruff key. I did it with a dremial tool, with the little cut off disks.

Short ramble.

Noel

Shadetree lathe, clamp a drill in the vise with the rod in the chuck and lock the trigger on Been there done that One job was for Dad, he was looking for toys for the grand kids at garage sales, found a real .22 pistol in a big box of toys labeled $5 each The pin that held the 6 shot cylinder in place was replaced with the chromed handle section of one of those mini screwdrivers with the swivel plate on the end. The rod I had was .015 too big around, so chucked it in the drill and used a file and fine sand paper with the drill spinning. one end of the rod needed a nipple and the other end needed some groves for gripping with your fingers and another groove for the spring loaded keeper pin to catch in. Took about 45 minutes,tools used were dial caliper, several files and a hacksaw. The first 6 shots were done chicken style with the gun in a vise and a looong string on the trigger


Gordy

Timj wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:17 pm

Gordy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 6:10 pm

propane1 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 6:02 am I have never even used a lathe, couple people I know have them. I’ve made or fixed stuff at home here using back yard tools. Some fairly crude methods I used to make or fix stuff. A true machinist might have a stroke, looking at some of the stuff I’ve used and done. Hehehe. Certainly only minor stuff I’ve done. I did cut a slot in a 3/4 rod once for a woodruff key. I did it with a dremial tool, with the little cut off disks.

Short ramble.

Noel

Shadetree lathe, clamp a drill in the vise with the rod in the chuck and lock the trigger on Been there done that One job was for Dad, he was looking for toys for the grand kids at garage sales, found a real .22 pistol in a big box of toys labeled $5 each The pin that held the 6 shot cylinder in place was replaced with the chromed handle section of one of those mini screwdrivers with the swivel plate on the end. The rod I had was .015 too big around, so chucked it in the drill and used a file and fine sand paper with the drill spinning. one end of the rod needed a nipple and the other end needed some groves for gripping with your fingers and another groove for the spring loaded keeper pin to catch in. Took about 45 minutes,tools used were dial caliper, several files and a hacksaw. The first 6 shots were done chicken style with the gun in a vise and a looong string on the trigger


Gordy

That's awesome Gordy.

Eugen wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 2:42 pm A rainy day and no parts here to do the 644 cylinders. Thought I'd take a look at the k361 head for warping. Sure enough a feeler gauge thicker than 3 thousands slipped between the head and a sheet of glass. Spending some time with a 60 grit surface. The seems somewhat surprised at all the attention it's getting. Still got more to go before switching to finer grit.


C81E71CE-BAA2-403B-8847-36A2BA305688.jpeg

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:29 pm
How is the top of the block for flat?

Eugen wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:31 pm

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:29 pm
How is the top of the block for flat?

Ahm... no idea

JSinMO wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:16 pm I have no doubt you’ll get it flat. Just take some time. Remember copper coat is your friend!

Eugen wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:50 pm Was in the mood to do something different today so I heated these guys up with the propane torch and added some material to make it thicker. The plan is to throw them in the lathe and turn to size for interference fit and cold/hot pressing in the head.


F4C6707A-47FD-480A-B96F-55B84C72D400.jpeg

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:14 pm You may have to ream them out after pressing in the head . The weld will contract and shrink the bore .

Eugen wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 7:56 am

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:14 pm You may have to ream them out after pressing in the head . The weld will contract and shrink the bore .

For sure!
Dim dim dim,
I scream
Spit the Jim Beam
I'm ready to ream
Weld with a light beam
Have no seam
Work like a team!

That's my morning rap.

Eugen wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 7:56 am

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:14 pm You may have to ream them out after pressing in the head . The weld will contract and shrink the bore .

For sure!
Dim dim dim,
I scream
Spit the Jim Beam
I'm ready to ream
Weld with a light beam
Have no seam
Work like a team!

That's my morning rap.

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:53 pm @Eugen I will have to drop over when it is running in something . Curious to hear the difference between flat head and ohv Kohlers under load .

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:41 am Do you have lapping compound ?
If not I have lots .

Eugen wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:22 am

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:41 am Do you have lapping compound ?
If not I have lots .

Yes sir, thank you, got a tube of permatex. Even though some people say you don't need to do that with seats cut and valves faces re-ground I still do.

RoamingGnome wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:37 am Nice job!
Do you have a valve grinding machine or did you take it to a shop?

RoamingGnome wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:07 pm I'll remember that

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:48 am

Eugen wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:22 am

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:41 am Do you have lapping compound ?
If not I have lots .

Yes sir, thank you, got a tube of permatex. Even though some people say you don't need to do that with seats cut and valves faces re-ground I still do.

I always do . If nothing more than to check the contact.

myerslawnandgarden wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:34 pm
Standard practice nowadays with valves and seats is to machine with a 1 degree difference. Problem with lapping compound is that you destroy the interference angle. With regard to checking the contact and the location of the seat on the valve face, most of us use machinists blue dye and slap the valve against the seat a couple of times, then view the results.

Bob

Eugen wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 2:33 pm It's alive indeed Dave! Took my time to put it back together. The valve guides will never become loose again me thinks. This engine can benefit from a temperature gauge so as to not overheat.

The valves and seats are nicely done now, clearance adjusted. New gaskets in a lot of places, got a full set from eBay the other day.

I'm kinda sorry to put it in the loader, seems like wasted power. Not sure at all what to do with it.

Eugen wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:46 pm That 20hp Honda engine will make your 644 a beast!

Thanks @JSinMO ! There are some tractors here with broken engines. Just thought this engine could go into something more special. There was a guy on marketplace selling a thermo king 3-cyl diesel engine and I asked if he'd trade it for the k361 but he refused me. I'd have wanted that diesel engine for the tracked trencher. I think the k361 is a little underpowered for the tracked machine. I would want 20 hp minimum for that machine. There's a kohler magnum 20 for sale around here, that would probably be ok, but unless I sell something, no $$

Dave, I don't have a 226 anymore

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 5:44 pm [I looked into the refer diesels , I don't like the way it add reads . Something is not right about that deal . Make your own K series 226 . out of a 22#