Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

I've watched several YouTube videos now that have referred to 3 pt. hitches "not having downpressure".

Do Case/Ingy 3 pts. have downpressure?

Bob

Yes. The sleeve hitch does not.

Yes. They have 2 way cylinder

The sleeve hitch has some but there is a slot in the arm from the mid lift to the sleeve hitch that may need to be filled to make better use of it. I made a plug for the slot to get more down pressure with my tiller.


Gordy

Thanks, that's what I thought. That's certainly how I built my 3 pt. But looking at things like Kubota and Deere subcompacts, they don't come with downpressure standard. That seems crazy to me!

Bob

thebuildist wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:38 pm Thanks, that's what I thought. That's certainly how I built my 3 pt. But looking at things like Kubota and Deere subcompacts, they don't come with downpressure standard. That seems crazy to me!

Bob

I'd have never expected that. Why not?

I have no idea. I'm dumbfounded. A video by Good Works Tractors talking about "top 15 attachments that use a 3rd hydraulic circuit" and he's like, "People really struggle with 3 pt post hole diggers, because you don't have any downfeed, and sometimes gravity just isn't enough..." and I'm thinking, "I must misunderstand. That can't be possible" but then he's like, "But you can buy this addon kit to add downpressure to your 3 pt. arms..."

And I'm just stumped. WHY? Why would you build a ground-engaging hitch that only has gravity drop? On a THIRTY THOUSAND DOLLAR machine?

I'm speechless.

Bob

thebuildist wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:38 pm Thanks, that's what I thought. That's certainly how I built my 3 pt. But looking at things like Kubota and Deere subcompacts, they don't come with downpressure standard. That seems crazy to me!

Bob

It does seem counter intuitive but most implements don’t need down pressure. If you think about what most people would attach to a 3 point it makes sense. Mowers need to float, tillage equipment doesn’t really need to be forced in the ground. They will dig in just fine as long as the implement and 3 point arms are adjusted correctly. Really if you forced a plow or disc into the ground you would probably either damage them or cause the tractor to loose traction. I have 2 tractors with after market 3 points and neither had down pressure, just single acting cylinders.

When the hoses and old cylinders on my 830 went bad I did replace them with a double acting cylinder but that was more for convenience of finding the parts than the need for down pressure.

I could see garden tractors possibly utilizing it more because the implements may be light but I have no practical experience to be able to prove that.

I found down pressure useful with the tiller, because I like it to go deep. The moldboard plow goes deep all by itself. I also have a ripper which works well stabbing the ground with down pressure, but the tractor isn't strong enough to pull it when it goes too deep. I could live just fine without down pressure, yet it's nice having it.

Eugen wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 11:49 pm I found down pressure useful with the tiller, because I like it to go deep. The moldboard plow goes deep all by itself. I also have a ripper which works well stabbing the ground with down pressure, but the tractor isn't strong enough to pull it when it goes too deep. I could live just fine without down pressure, yet it's nice having it.

Don’t get me wrong there are times when down pressure is great. Your tiller is a perfect example.

The post hole digger in Bob’s example is a good one for why you don’t want down pressure. You would think you would want to force the auger into the ground to get it to dig. The key word there is “ force”. There are a few things that usually go wrong.

1) you force the post hole digger into the ground and it catches. At 540 RPM is screws into the ground so fast you can’t move the hydraulic lever fast enough to stop it. The shear pin breaks. PTO only turn one way, you can’t back it out. Now you get to spend 5 hours with shovels, picks, bars digging the post hole digger out.

2) you force the post hole digger into the ground, and it starts to dig. The problem is it wasn’t designed to have down force on it. The auger snaps, or the ujoints, or the PTO shaft, or you get lucky and just keep breaking shear pins.

Either way you spend more time fixing the digger and not digging holes.

If these example I give seem to have stories behind them, your right! Been there done that.

In hard ground sometimes you have to hand dig first or soak the ground to get the digger to do what is should with no down pressure.

JSinMO wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 12:18 am

Eugen wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 11:49 pm I found down pressure useful with the tiller, because I like it to go deep. The moldboard plow goes deep all by itself. I also have a ripper which works well stabbing the ground with down pressure, but the tractor isn't strong enough to pull it when it goes too deep. I could live just fine without down pressure, yet it's nice having it.

Don’t get me wrong there are times when down pressure is great. Your tiller is a perfect example.

The post hole digger in Bob’s example is a good one for why you don’t want down pressure. You would think you would want to force the auger into the ground to get it to dig. The key word there is “ force”. There are a few things that usually go wrong.

1) you force the post hole digger into the ground and it catches. At 540 RPM is screws into the ground so fast you can’t move the hydraulic lever fast enough to stop it. The shear pin breaks. PTO only turn one way, you can’t back it out. Now you get to spend 5 hours with shovels, picks, bars digging the post hole digger out.

2) you force the post hole digger into the ground, and it starts to dig. The problem is it wasn’t designed to have down force on it. The auger snaps, or the ujoints, or the PTO shaft, or you get lucky and just keep breaking shear pins.

Either way you spend more time fixing the digger and not digging holes.

If these example I give seem to have stories behind them, your right! Been there done that.

In hard ground sometimes you have to hand dig first or soak the ground to get the digger to do what is should with no down pressure.

Two very experienced posts by JSinMO. The other thing is, If you have down pressure on your attachments while pulling them with the tractor, you could lose traction because of lifting the rear of the tractor. So adding weight to put the tool into the ground is a better option. If you watch plow matches, they normally have weights on the plow. Most of these tractors would have down pressure. But losing traction is the trouble so they use weights on the plow to help push it into the ground sooner. Which is what’s needed at a plow match.
Those sub compact tractors, that Bob is talking about, they lift and lower the 3 point and mower deck at the same time. Don’t need down pressure on mower deck. So maybe that’s why they are like that, no 3 point down pressure. I never liked that. Seems cheap to me.

Any way, there’s a Monday morning ramble. Haven’t had one in a while.
I’m taking my 1951 tea20 Ferguson tractor, with down pressure, to a plow match this weekend. Just an old tractor with the most basic hydraulic 2 sod plow you can get. I do it for fun. Some of them are a little more serious. If I had a plow that had easily adjustable settings, I might do better. Came in second one year out of six of us. But I’ve come in last many times too.
Hopefully have a few pictures.


Noel

Really good points @JSinMO ! I have no experience with an auger, but it's a great example of things one should know. My 644 has up/down/float on the 3ph. Float is great for the moldboard plow and IF the plow is adjusted correctly it'll go to the right depth and stay there.

@Propane57 I think you're saying something similar, better know how to use down pressure or whatever feature, because it can work against you. In my case I have no way to add weight to the tiller, but I have big weights for the tractor rear wheels. Wheel weight, ag tires, plus some down pressure from the hitch and works great for tilling for me.

Have fun at the pull! Looking forward to see some pics!

Noel, I'm surprised your Tea has down pressure. The Ag tractors I have known have depth control. There's a lever on the right hand side that you can set to a position. But they didn't push down.

I was going to mention lifting the rear wheels, but Noel already covered that.

I'm also thinking that in the early days of 3PH, a lot of Ag hydraulics was single acting, so, perhaps that set the standard. When I was a kid I use to drive an old IH crop master/narrow front with a loader/manure fork with manual latch release and single acting boom cylinders. Perhaps Noel knows what I'm talking about.

Well, I guess I've gotten what I asked for: A full-on masterclass about 3pts and downpressure.

I guess by having float on my 3 pt I get the best of both worlds.

Bob

FUTZ wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:05 am Noel, I'm surprised your Tea has down pressure. The Ag tractors I have known have depth control. There's a lever on the right hand side that you can set to a position. But they didn't push down.

I was going to mention lifting the rear wheels, but Noel already covered that.

I'm also thinking that in the early days of 3PH, a lot of Ag hydraulics was single acting, so, perhaps that set the standard. When I was a kid I use to drive an old IH crop master/narrow front with a loader/manure fork with manual latch release and single acting boom cylinders. Perhaps Noel knows what I'm talking about.

Well I could be explaining the down pressure wrong on my tea FUTZ. But the more down I put the lever the harder it pushes down. Then the spring and cylinder that connect to the top link, keep the position it’s set at. If you drive over uneven ground the 3 point system will keep the setting with out it going up and down with the tractor. So in a way, I don’t have real down pressure I guess. Like you say, a depth control. My tea tractor has transmission pto, meaning the pto only operates with the tractor moving. Or put in neutral and let the clutch out. This will run the pto. And the hydraulic pump is run by the pto. So transmission hydraulics are quite different than live hydraulics. And there is a lever to turn the pto on or off on my tractor, but is normally left in the on position.
On a tractor with 3 point down pressure, having a float position would be a good thing. But if you where using the 3 point in the down pressure setting and when going over uneven ground, the 3 point attachment would follow the tractor. So I believe you then need draft control to let the tractor follow the uneven ground and the 3 point attachment would stay level. I could be wrong on that.

Yes I do FUTZ. Pressure up on the loader, gravity down. With a trip bucket. And they worked fine.

Well I got away of track on that ramble, didn’t I. All rambles are subject to change and can be done at any time.


Noel

Like Gordy said, sometimes down pressure helps when tilling, but I I like the down pressure on my J26 3pt when I install the rear wheel weights for Fall and Winter. I put jack stands under the 3pt (with F27 adapter) to raise the rear wheels so I can rotate them and fasten the weights.
Bob