Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

My 644 stopped working after about an hour and a half of gravel loader duty, a few days ago. Before stopping altogether it wanted more and more choke. Had no time to deal with it until today. Noticed it was also out of gas, so refueled it and tried to get it started again.

It would start only with the choke on, and does not stay running. The spark looks good, the pump seems to pump fuel, the carb bowl is full. So what now? I got a carb I knew works from the 244 and put it on the 644, same thing. Eventually I got it to run a little longer by plugging the two holes on the choke carburetor butterfly, but it runs at low rpm, and as soon as I open up the choke it dies. No matter what I tried, like adjusting the jets, nothing made it work better.

More troubleshooting needed.

My first thought was what David posted on the thread about mine not running right. Look for an air leak. Maybe in the intake seam or where the intake mates to the head.

ship the tractor to me Eugen. And I’ll fix it over a long time.


Noel

Eugen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:53 pm My 644 stopped working after about an hour and a half of gravel loader duty, a few days ago. Before stopping altogether it wanted more and more choke. Had no time to deal with it until today. Noticed it was also out of gas, so refueled it and tried to get it started again.

It would start only with the choke on, and does not stay running. The spark looks good, the pump seems to pump fuel, the carb bowl is full. So what now? I got a carb I knew works from the 244 and put it on the 644, same thing. Eventually I got it to run a little longer by plugging the two holes on the choke carburetor butterfly, but it runs at low rpm, and as soon as I open up the choke it dies. No matter what I tried, like adjusting the jets, nothing made it work better.

More troubleshooting needed.

@Eugen Start with a compression test . If you do not have a tester come borrow mine . Should have about 75lbs WOT. Check valve clearance , If ok disconnect muffler and try again ,
lean working hard make excessive heat . warped head, mufflers clolpsing internal , valve ware/ damage

@Eugen If the head gasket is gone I have the mill and plate for measuring and sanding flat . I might even have a gasket , have to check that . let me know .

Jumpins Dave. He might have shipped to me.


Noel

Thanks for your good suggestions guys! I'll take it one step at a time and report what I find. I got Thursday and Friday off so there's a chance I get to it.

Propane57 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:32 am ship the tractor to me Eugen. And I’ll fix it over a long time.


Noel

For a bowl of chowder!

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:05 am
@Eugen Start with a compression test . If you do not have a tester come borrow mine . Should have about 75lbs WOT. Check valve clearance , If ok disconnect muffler and try again ,
lean working hard make excessive heat . warped head, mufflers clolpsing internal , valve ware/ damage

Thanks Dave, I got a tester but the Kohlers have the automatic compression release remember?

Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines, valves, head. Didn't think of muffler collapse, that's interesting.

@JSinMO the Kohlers don't have an intake manifold like the Onans, the carb is bolted directly on the body. But when I took off the old carb I noticed that the thick gasket was very hard and maybe a little waroed, might have allowed air in thus make it run lean and overheat. hopefully not too much damage ensued.

Eugen wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:46 am

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:05 am
@Eugen Start with a compression test . If you do not have a tester come borrow mine . Should have about 75lbs WOT. Check valve clearance , If ok disconnect muffler and try again ,
lean working hard make excessive heat . warped head, mufflers clolpsing internal , valve ware/ damage

Thanks Dave, I got a tester but the Kohlers have the automatic compression release remember?

yes , thats why you only get about 75 psi

Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines, valves, head. Didn't think of muffler collapse, that's interesting.

If it has blown the head gasket it will be sucking air in there as well as loosing compression

@JSinMO the Kohlers don't have an intake manifold like the Onans, the carb is bolted directly on the body. But when I took off the old carb I noticed that the thick gasket was very hard and maybe a little waroed, might have allowed air in thus make it run lean and overheat. hopefully not too much damage ensued.

I should have a carb gasket too.

Note: I have a gasket , If need just come get the head flat grab the gasket and bring me a replacement gasket when get one . Get you back running fast .

Thanks Dave! Let's see what's wrong and I might take you up on it.

Well, there are tell-tale signs that there was blow by between the head and body. Some fresh oil on two parts of the head gasket.

Cleaned it up a bit and measured the head flatness. Not to spec; three areas more than 0.003 inches.

Dave, I really appreciate your offer to have it milled in your shop but you know it's hard for me to go away from home plus this could be done easily on sandpaper. Which I did.


I'm not sure if I should lap the valves since the head is off anyway. What do you guys think?

She’s a big valve engine. Woo hoo. Extra power.
And standard bore, that’s great. Neat to see the markings on the piston. Looking good Eugen.

Noel

Looking good, glad you found the issue. I don’t know if lapping the valves is necessary in this case, but I dont think it’s gonna hurt.
Do you guys use copper cote on your gaskets? I started using it years ago on head gaskets and haven’t had a leak yet.

Nice job Eugen, your workmanship is commendable.

Keep the Peace
Harry

Nice work, Eugen!

Check your valve clearance . if it is close to speck leave alone and just make any adjustment needed . If the clearance is very low then you have ware and yes do it . Sometimes it is better not to fix what is not broke .

Thanks guys!

@DavidBarkey that was my thought, and adjusted the clearance last night after the kids went to bed. Let me tell you, the mosquitoes were vicious!!!

Valves were a little loose, 0.020 for the exhaust, and a little more than 0.010 for the intake. Adjusted to 0.018 and 0.008, since the specs say 0.017-0.019 and 0.007-0.009 and for lack of better intelligence I tend to adjust valves in the middle of the spec range.

This got me thinking though. Assuming that the valve adjustment nut doesn't get out of adjustment on its own, why would the gap get smaller, or bigger. Makes sense that wear on the valve seat or valve itself would make the gap smaller. But larger? All I can think of is carbon deposit in between the valve and the seat. Now I wish I had at least tried to clean the valve-seat contact. because the valve cover is back on and I'm really not in the mood to take it all out again. Meh!!

Eugen wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:04 am Thanks guys!

@DavidBarkey that was my thought, and adjusted the clearance last night after the kids went to bed. Let me tell you, the mosquitoes were vicious!!!

Valves were a little loose, 0.020 for the exhaust, and a little more than 0.010 for the intake. Adjusted to 0.018 and 0.008, since the specs say 0.017-0.019 and 0.007-0.009 and for lack of better intelligence I tend to adjust valves in the middle of the spec range.

This got me thinking though. Assuming that the valve adjustment nut doesn't get out of adjustment on its own, why would the gap get smaller, or bigger. Makes sense that wear on the valve seat or valve itself would make the gap smaller. But larger? All I can think of is carbon deposit in between the valve and the seat. Now I wish I had at least tried to clean the valve-seat contact. because the valve cover is back on and I'm really not in the mood to take it all out again. Meh!!

Valve lash getting smaller on a flat hear is the ware of the valve and or seat .
Valve lash getting bigger is ware from the cam and or lifter.
Or was not set properly the last time is possible if you don't know who did it last . Since it is not much out . It could be a combination of . Some go on the low side for better performance . Some go on the high side so it is longer before it needs resetting . I perfer the middle as well, I am not racing it .

JSinMO wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:12 pm Looking good, glad you found the issue. I don’t know if lapping the valves is necessary in this case, but I dont think it’s gonna hurt.
Do you guys use copper cote on your gaskets? I started using it years ago on head gaskets and haven’t had a leak yet.

Jeff, are you talking about this product?


I happen to have a can of this product. Found a gasket that I haven't really used, just installed once and tried an engine with. Will use the spray on it, thanks for suggesting it!

Well, it should teach me to look things up on google. The manual says 0.008-0.010 for intake clearance, not what I found on google somewhere which said 0.007-0.009. It looks like I set my intake valve clearance at the tight end but I think Noel @Propane57 would like it like this because it goes faster

For the record and so I don't look it up on google, here's the next relevant thing.

Looks like new, eh @JSinMO ?

This gasket was once tightened on an engine but not run.

Ya. Racey Eugen. Some thing I do when tightening the head bolts. Now this is just me. I learned this from a fella in Australia. He is a tractor mechanic. Do the tightening in stages. I do 20 ftlb, leave it for 15-30 minutes, then 25 ftlb, same wait time, last one 30 ftlbs. Same wait time then recheck. His theory is the gasket will squeeze in the wait times. I tend to agree. Then do the normal heat up and cool down, then check again at 30 ftlbs.

Just the way I do it. Not sayin this is how you have to do it. You do it what ever way you want.

Hopefully she’s back on track soon.

Noel

I'm reporting success on the first start. Noel, the Kohler manual has a similar procedure to what you do

Eugen wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:24 pm

JSinMO wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:12 pm Looking good, glad you found the issue. I don’t know if lapping the valves is necessary in this case, but I dont think it’s gonna hurt.
Do you guys use copper cote on your gaskets? I started using it years ago on head gaskets and haven’t had a leak yet.

Jeff, are you talking about this product?

Screen Shot 2022-06-29 at 13.22.06.png



I happen to have a can of this product. Found a gasket that I haven't really used, just installed once and tried an engine with. Will use the spray on it, thanks for suggesting it!

Yes that’s it. My dad used to keep a can of copper cote that you brushed on, very thick stuff. I don’t think you can get it anymore. I’ve used the spray can version like you have a few times and it has worked well. I don’t skimp on applying it, I put a good couple of coats on it.

That’s great news that you back up and running! Now it’s time to get it out of the work bay and back to moving gravel!

Hey @Eugen . How does it run now compaired to before .

Yeah, seems to run better, but hunting at high rpm. Spent some time hugging the governor last night, this engine is a different type k321 than what we usually have on the 224 or 444, seems to me it's a John deere perhaps transplanted . Has a long governor spring and different linkages.

Anyway, it also had the thick carburetor gasket, and I put back with a thin gasket. could this cause the surging or I didn't open up the riching jet

Eugen wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:05 am Yeah, seems to run better, but hunting at high rpm. Spent some time hugging the governor last night, this engine is a different type k321 than what we usually have on the 224 or 444, seems to me it's a John deere perhaps transplanted . Has a long governor spring and different linkages.

Anyway, it also had the thick carburetor gasket, and I put back with a thin gasket. could this cause the surging or I didn't open up the riching jet

Excessive play in the governor linkage can cause hunting too. Without a gas anilizer , the only way I know is to start with a fresh spark plug warm it up set idle mix then adjust main jet if adjustable run WOT for about ten min. shut down . When cool enough pull the plug and read the colour . If your colour is good (tan) then you have governor issues.

Two steps forward one step back. I gave it a little richer mixture from the main jet and it wasn't hunting so much. Moved some soil to fill up some holes, and when it got hot the engine stopped, just like before.

I'll check the points gap for no better thing to do. Really wish I knew if it overheats.

@DavidBarkey I'll also clean up the spark plug and see what it'll look like when it stops again.

Check the timing. Late timing will make it run hot. Did you check the timing yet. ??????

Thick carb gasket makes more power too !!!! Atomizes the fuel better and makes big power Eugen.

To set the high speed jet, run at full throttle warmed up. Turn jet to the lean side. When engine starts to change sound stop. Then turn out to the rich side, counting the turns out until the engine changes sound. If 4 turns, then turn back towards the lean side 2 turns. Should be sounding good at that setting. Now turn the jet to the rich side, 1/4 turn. It’s now set correctly.
Your turns could be any amount. I just used 4 as an example. So whatever the amount of turns out, go back 1/2 the amount of turns.

Clear as mud ayyy. Sorry if I don’t explain very well.


Noel

Propane57 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:38 pm Check the timing. Late timing will make it run hot. Did you check the timing yet. ??????

Not yet Noel, you didn't tell me to do that before so I thought it wasn't needed! I'm just following orders! Now I have to look at how I check timing, but I don't have a timing light.

Thick carb gasket makes more power too !!!! Atomizes the fuel better and makes big power Eugen.

Oooooooh! Great! I will put two or three gaskets then!!!

To set the high speed jet, run at full throttle warmed up. Turn jet to the lean side. When engine starts to change sound stop. Then turn out to the rich side, counting the turns out until the engine changes sound.

I tried, it doesn't change sh**t sound, I can close it completely, or open it completely. Newish looking carb from the People Republic of you know where.

If 4 turns, then turn back towards the lean side 2 turns. Should be sounding good at that setting. Now turn the jet to the rich side, 1/4 turn. It’s now set correctly.
Your turns could be any amount. I just used 4 as an example. So whatever the amount of turns out, go back 1/2 the amount of turns.

Clear as mud ayyy. Sorry if I don’t explain very well.

Noel

Explanation is perfect Noel, just like in the manual, by the way. Did you write the manual? I'm not kidding, it's almost exactly the same.

I have an old Kohler genuine carb that I think I cleaned up some time ago, maybe I try that one.


Hey, the place I work gave us a day off today, President day they say. I am not complaining, I got to dig a little with the backhoe, and move a little dirt with the 644.

Hehe. I’m not writing it out of the manual Eugen. It’s just the way I do it. Learned some how thou.

If your not getting any changes. Some thing is screwy with the carb I'd guess.

Don’t need a timing light Eugen to check timing. Look up static timing on that engine.
I could tell you but it’s been a few month since I did it. And can’t quite remember exactly. And I would be a lot of typing. Hehe. But you do need a continuity tester. Static or timing light will give basically the same results and you'd never know and difference between the two methods. But they say the timing light is more accurate.


Noel

Propane57 wrote: ↑
Check the timing. Late timing will make it run hot. Did you check the timing yet. ??????


I was teasing you some there Eugen. Hehe. But, if it’s running hot, it’s one thing to check. Happened to me on two engines. Engine bonnet was so hot you couldn’t touch it.

And why it hot when you have late timing is, hopefully I explain this right.
Spark happens late, explosion is then late. So when the piston gets to the end of its power stroke, and it starts back up on exhaust stoke a bit, the fuel mixture is still exploding some. So it sends hotter exhaust gasses than normal out the exhaust system which makes the engine and surrounding components hotter. And this is why a late timed engine has lack of power. The fuel mixture is still burning at the very end of the power stroke, which at that point doesn’t produce any power. Fuel wasted. Fuel mixture should stop exploding about 3/4’s or a little more from the end of the power stroke. Now to far advanced spark is a whole or story. Again lack of power and othe troubles.

Holy cats , that was quite a ramble. I’m tired out now.


Noel

Thank you Noel, good ramble! I'm learning!


I'll check the service manual for how to check timing.

But it seems I'm facing a very difficult problem, because it happened exactly when it was out of gas in the tank.

Looks good.

They don’t work very well with out fuel.

Eugen.


Noel

I hate when that happens!

@Eugen Colour looks good, good mix . No sign of detonation ,and there is still some black around the end of the threads which tells me that it is not to hot or did not run long .

Well done, Eugen! Hopefully all sorted now. You've inspired me to take the head off my main 444 for a clean and then valve check. Gotta love the simplicity and ease of working on those K series Kohler's.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

Chad wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:20 am Well done, Eugen! Hopefully all sorted now. You've inspired me to take the head off my main 444 for a clean and then valve check. Gotta love the simplicity and ease of working on those K series Kohler's.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

Go Chad go! I have to say I really like the k series! So much that my Onan powered 446 will go on sale as soon as I can get it cleaned up for the show!

Eugen wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:51 pm Screen Shot 2022-06-29 at 13.47.15.png


Well, it should teach me to look things up on google. The manual says 0.008-0.010 for intake clearance, not what I found on google somewhere which said 0.007-0.009. It looks like I set my intake valve clearance at the tight end but I think Noel @Propane57 would like it like this because it goes faster

For the record and so I don't look it up on google, here's the next relevant thing.


Screen Shot 2022-06-29 at 13.46.16.png

The manual you are quoting is for the very old Kohler engines that did not have adjustable tappets. The top part of the spec sheet in your pr=icture talks about grinding the valve stem. You do not grind the valve stems if the tappets are adjustable. The first spec you had were for those engines with adjustable tappets.

@steadfast @ssmewing I believe the manual I am quoting is the correct manual, but I cropped the page and maybe that's what led to confusion. Here's the full page, sorry if it wasn't clear before.

Eugen wrote: ↑Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:47 pm @steadfast @ssmewing I believe the manual I am quoting is the correct manual, but I cropped the page and maybe that's what led to confusion. Here's the full page, sorry if it wasn't clear before.


0D91A3B0-9896-4CAC-9B2B-5F3569603638.jpeg

You are correct. Seeing the whole page shows it is the correct instructions.

My youngest wants me to start this tractor pretty much always when we're around it. So yesterday we start it and drive it around a bit when this happens.


This engine is so powerful that by the sheer strength of its exhaust blow it broke the weld and spit out the muffler on the ground.

Doesn't look like a stock muffler! What is that from?

Keep the Peace
Harry

I'll bet she barks now. you are going to have to go a little easier on the NOS.
The list of things to do never ends.

Harry wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:27 pm Doesn't look like a stock muffler! What is that from?

Keep the Peace
Harry

@Harry This is how this 644 came to me. The engine is a Kohler K321 but looks more like it was from a JD, definitely not the stock Case 644 engine.

Timj wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:28 pm I'll bet she barks now.

Bark she does Tim!

you are going to have to go a little easier on the NOS.
The list of things to do never ends.

I know, shower handle broke yesterday, lost my full wallet downtown Toronto the day before. Big backhoe seems to lose more oil on the boom cylinders, something needs to be done about it. The list is long and keeps on getting longer. Indeed, it never ends.

The muffler was shot on my 644 when I purchased it. I liked this on that Steve Guider made up and purchased one. Keep the Peace
Harry

0199F269-EC02-4A3D-B426-313E3B48AD74.jpeg


This engine is so powerful that by the sheer strength of its exhaust blow it broke the weld and spit out the muffler on the ground.
[/quote]




Noel

Harry wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:53 pm The muffler was shot on my 644 when I purchased it. I liked this on that Steve Guider made up and purchased one.
image.png
image.png

Keep the Peace
Harry

thank you for the recommendation @Harry

I actually like the muffler routed to pass all the gases below and to the back of the tractor, so I'll just weld it back into place.

Not a pretty weld but should hold. A little stove paint for good measure. On to the next adventure.

My 644 just hasn't been running thats well lately. Today I needed to do some work with it after sitting for about a week and a half but it just wouldn't start. Replaced the carb with one I knew was good, still nothing. Something made me have a look at the fuel pump. When it came off I noticed one of the two bolts that fastens it to the blocked was loose. Inspected the fuel pump, seemed to be fine. Put it back, added some fresh had and to my surprise the tractor starts much faster and the motorboating is gone completely. This Kohler K321 runs now nice and smooth, better than ever before since I got the tractor. Even got some seat time hauling some skid from here to there.

I love an easy fix! So since the fuel pump was loose, it wasn’t pumping as it should? Or do you think you cleared out some junk in the line?

JSinMO wrote: ↑Sun Aug 28, 2022 3:30 pm I love an easy fix! So since the fuel pump was loose, it wasn’t pumping as it should? Or do you think you cleared out some junk in the line?

Mind you it took me about 40 minutes trying two other carbs before getting to the fuel pump, but definitely it was an easy fix. Not sure, maybe some junk made it to the carb before I installed the fuel filter a little while ago. Let's hope it stays running well now as I need it for some work.