Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

Posted: **Mon Dec 18, 2023 2:33 pm**

Been looking awhile about E_Z clutches ... you might have seen some of my earlier posts. So we have talked a little about some aspects of the EZ clutch but I really thought, and hope eventually that we can set up a thread especially to cover this to its end.

As you all know PTO clutches are part of our lives and how they work or not is what makes our GT's great! If we can't get that right how can we say our GT's are the best!!!

When I started looking at this issue earlier in the new year I thought it would be easy looking from others advice... little did I know that I was walking into a hornets nest..

I have set up this thread, I hope to just talk through our issues, I want to keep this to E-Z adjust clutches only please.

I thought when I started down this path I was looking at a single entity having moved on from the shim adjust version - was I sooooo wrong!

Since my initiation I have found different cam styles, fork styles, even quantity and thickness of wavy washers and shims, etc. Yeah there is always larking in the background parts lists for each year, etc if you can find them..

So I took to YouTube to start and found a couple of good video's that are helping a lot but I really have one main issue - I have 4 "sets" of parts and there are subtle differences between them - forks are different lengths, cams are different styles, etc. Yes I have the parts list and operator manual for my year (1985 but I also have a 1979 lurking not too fa behind needing attention too before summer).

For me, I need more ... how do we as enthusiasts overcome this challenge? Seems the only thing that seems constant are the bearings and I have those.

Want to help me build my new 1985 448 PTO? tell me how? Oh, to get you guys motivated my ONLY snow machine right now is a green one...!

Posted: **Tue Dec 19, 2023 11:10 am**

So here's the first question and where I am trying to take this thread..

I have found two styles/types of PTO Cams (shown below)!
The outside dimension for both is the same and I thought it was just a different machine shop style but if you take a closer look the bearings are fitted from the opposite sides to each other? I assume one set are early production and the other later so which set are the ones intended for a 1985 448 GT..?

I have checked the parts list drawings for all the 448 variants since conception till they move to four digit and they all show the cams with lobes..

If that is the case (pun very much intended) what is the "other style" used on?

Posted: **Tue Dec 19, 2023 11:32 am**

So lets continue this theme..
Almost all the parts I have for my "new" PTO clutch have a certain amount of surface rust that has developed over the years. Obviously, before i rebuild that just has to go and I have a new rust treatment to try from Amazon that just needs the parts submerged (let you know how well it works).. So obviously I don't want to paint the parts but how do you keep them rust free into the future?

Posted: **Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:49 pm**

I am told this works well and fairly easy to get your hands on . I have not tried it myself yet , but recommend by a friend .

Posted: **Tue Dec 19, 2023 1:23 pm**

The cams are used interchangeably, the earlier design C23033 is a cast part and the later design C47925 (part of the C47520 kit) is CNC machined steel. Both perform the same function with the steel part being more durable.

Bob

Posted: **Tue Dec 19, 2023 1:26 pm**

Thanks again Bob, but why is the entry of the bearings reversed/ From what you have said I will be using the machined version as I have two sets of those...

Posted: **Tue Dec 19, 2023 2:21 pm**

When I viewed the YouTube videos they made a great point of repacking the new bearings with grease before install and I am going to follow that advice. I bought new bearings from Brian at SalemPwr (Titan 6206 RSLC3) and noted they came from China. My question is if I repack the grease what do people recommend? I was thinking a Moly grease (STP Moly EP Grease) but looking for suggestions too.

Posted: **Tue Dec 19, 2023 3:06 pm**

So, yet another question for the experts.

The pulley and disk assembly are different sizes in my stock of parts? How can this be? my only guess is 200 to 400 series but I am truly at a loss.

I have two pulleys that have an OD of 5 inches and one that is 4 5/8 inches.. Tending to the 5 inch pulleys but what would the 4 5/8 pulley be used for?

Posted: **Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:47 pm**

So from what I know so far..

The 1985 PTO clutch fitted to my GT is at best a hybrid! and at worst cobbled together!!!!

Seems to have parts from early clutches and others from 1985-87 production. Just as well I have quite a stash of parts that I have collected over the past few years.

In some respects I feel I should follow Harry and just change everything to electric (one of my GT's that has a B&S implant already is and works faultlessly too). At least I am trying to stay original with my two remaining GT's with Onans but...

So now I have ordered new shim washers (already have new wavy washers) for the whole clutch together with new nuts (yeah the previous even fitted lock nuts!) so now I wait on Brian to ship the parts.

Posted: **Tue Dec 19, 2023 10:57 pm**

Ras101, I really try to support this forum with accurate information and will survive without your business. But looking back at your posts for the last couple of months you have referenced your primary parts supplier 3 time or more. If you have a technical question, why don't you call your supplier instead of asking for advice here? How many times have they responded? I don't care where you buy your parts, but why advertise that here when someone is trying to help you?

While I appreciate the business that other's provide on this site, I cannot continue to spend time that I could otherwise use for better purposes.

Anyone else, please feel free to contact me directly.

Sorry Eugen, I think I need to take a step back..............

Bob

Posted: **Tue Dec 19, 2023 11:46 pm**

@myerslawnandgarden Bob, I have not purchased any parts in over a year because life has gotten in the way. I have been very happy with the set of tiller tines purchase from you. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=940&p=13870&hilit=tines#p13870. There is a long todo list that will require a lot of parts when the day comes.

Bob, I for one appreciate your input and will purchase more parts from you!

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 7:51 am**

I'm sorry Bob @myerslawnandgarden, not sure what's really happening here.

I'm sure all other vendors are great people but as far as I'm concerned you are more than a vendor here, a member of our group helping us with valuable information and sharing the experience. That's why when I need Case parts I will buy them from you.

Let's take a step back though, and take a good look at the bigger picture. This site is small, we're just a handful of people here. This site was created as a response to the Walmart taking over and running the other site. If ALL we care about is the "lowest price", Walmart wins? Is it bad if everything is Walmart? For some yes, for some not, not all is bad and so on. So,

here I am, an existential crisis? No. Without active people there is no community, no site. I personally thank you all who are active here. I get nothing material out of this, zero dollars. In fact I pay every month some dollars. I do it because I want to, and because I think some little guy should stand up to Walmart. In my opinion it's healthy to not give it all up to the big bucks. There, my ramble for today.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:31 am**

I also appreciate all the detailed info @myerslawnandgarden has provided in answering questions on the forum here. I haven't purchased many genuine Case/Ingersoll parts from US suppliers (I'm :canada:

) but when I am ready to buy your participation certainly makes a difference as to which vendor I choose... Thanks again...

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 4:21 pm**

Bob, I am sorry, you are very right and I must admit you have been more than supportive of me and this forum too. I guess I got into a mode of looking up parts by just clicking on my saved links rather than supported users here tha are more than supported me too. From now on, I have set my go to you and will only venture elsewhere when you are not able to supply. Just know Bob I really look forward to your responses to my queries and I know others do to..

Ray

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:00 pm**

So one thing I did not mention in my posting on bearings was that I had bought those in the early part of the year and not, say last week. Still no excuse but just saying.
So today I called into Harbor Freight, in Webster NY, and bought a O-Ring hook scribe set to remove the seal on one of the Tritan bearings and also bought a set of 3/8 drive SAE long reach hex sockets too -

When I opened the Tritan bearings I found LITTLE! to no grease!!!! no wonder the YouTube video says to open and pack. I bought "STP Moly-EP" grease for this purpose and will be doing that in a couple of days unless anyone can recommend a better alternative. Remember I only want to do this once!
A couple of other things I have decided. The first is I have two a 1979 and 1985, (Onan engines B43M and B48M) that I want to fit/replace PTO clutches on. I have decided through members feed back to retain these as manual clutches (EZ PTO Clutch). My other GT has a B&S 18HP engine and is already fitted with an Electric clutch.

After I sent this photo, I opened a second bearing just because.. I found the same thing... one side had a little grease applied but the other side NOTHING! yeah these are China bearings! We could all act out and say well what do you expect?d though that it is the same worldwide and American made bearings are the same. For me from now on I will not assume and open up al my sealed bearings and fill to capacity. As no one responded to my grease type question I will assume that my Moly Grease is good or better. I know the grease used is colored BLUE but Moly grease is black, and for a reason too. I intend to fill the bearings to capacity and let the seals decide the total fill- thank you YouTube!

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:55 pm**

So just a question for members here...
When you order parts from a Case/Ingersoll parts supplier what do you expect to get? Pristine stock or are you prepared to take new stock that has quite bad surface rust as I found on shims and washers I ordered?

Just had that happen with the supplier I have been using (look it up on past posts here) Never buying from them again!

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 1:07 pm**

Ras101, my 446 which has a B series Onan, I converted it to an electric clutch. It originally was a manual with shims not an EZ. It was a PITA to deal with so I changed it to an electric clutch that I picked up off of CL. It has not given me any problem what so ever.

Harry

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 1:17 pm**

Harry, I would like to talk a lot more about your change here! How did you do the change? Did you keep the original shaft or did you modify it in some way? etc.I know from my change to B&S engines and change to an electric clutch that I much prefer just flipping a switch!

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 6:24 pm**

The original shaft that bolts to the flywheel had to be turned down to 1” OD. That’s because the electric clutch needed that size of shaft to fit. I also had to fabricate a bracket to bolt to the clutch bracket. Of course the electric needed to be wired to a switch with a fuse inline. That’s about all I remember currently.

Harry

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 6:32 pm**

ras101 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:55 pm So just a question for members here...
When you order parts from a Case/Ingersoll parts supplier what do you expect to get? Pristine stock or are you prepared to take new stock that has quite bad surface rust as I found on shims and washers I ordered?

Just had that happen with the supplier I have been using (look it up on past posts here) Never buying from them again!

When you are dealing with NOS New OLDDDD Stock . there is possibility of surface rust . The fact that you still can get NOS parts in some cases is a miracl in its self .

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 6:47 pm**

ras101 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:00 pm So one thing I did not mention in my posting on bearings was that I had bought those in the early part of the year and not, say last week. Still no excuse but just saying.
So today I called into Harbor Freight, in Webster NY, and bought a O-Ring hook scribe set to remove the seal on one of the Tritan bearings and also bought a set of 3/8 drive SAE long reach hex sockets too -

When I opened the Tritan bearings I found LITTLE! to no grease!!!! no wonder the YouTube video says to open and pack. I bought "STP Moly-EP" grease for this purpose and will be doing that in a couple of days unless anyone can recommend a better alternative. Remember I only want to do this once!
A couple of other things I have decided. The first is I have two a 1979 and 1985, (Onan engines B43M and B48M) that I want to fit/replace PTO clutches on. I have decided through members feed back to retain these as manual clutches (EZ PTO Clutch). My other GT has a B&S 18HP engine and is already fitted with an Electric clutch.

After I sent this photo, I opened a second bearing just because.. I found the same thing... one side had a little grease applied but the other side NOTHING! yeah these are China bearings! We could all act out and say well what do you expect?d though that it is the same worldwide and American made bearings are the same. For me from now on I will not assume and open up al my sealed bearings and fill to capacity. As no one responded to my grease type question I will assume that my Moly Grease is good or better. I know the grease used is colored BLUE but Moly grease is black, and for a reason too. I intend to fill the bearings to capacity and let the seals decide the total fill- thank you YouTube!

You need to understand that , 1 That clear grease is synthetic , 2 if the bearing case is "Full" of grease it will expel excess grease when it heats up onto your friction disk , 3 Yes some China Bearings are inferior , but some are top grade and it is all about what the buyer at the factory level is paying for . Sometimes it is a matter of just a little less grease . And since No one else is making them here because labour is to $$ you need to learn to live with it .

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 11:18 am**

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 6:32 pm
ras101 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:55 pm So just a question for members here...
When you order parts from a Case/Ingersoll parts supplier what do you expect to get? Pristine stock or are you prepared to take new stock that has quite bad surface rust as I found on shims and washers I ordered?

Just had that happen with the supplier I have been using (look it up on past posts here) Never buying from them again!
When you are dealing with NOS New OLDDDD Stock . there is possibility of surface rust . The fact that you still can get NOS parts in some cases is a miracl in its self .

Dave, i somewhat agree with you but the rust was quite pronounced and the part was actually in worse state than what I was going to replace! IMO there is no reason whatsoever for a new part to be rusty it only takes a spray of oil in the container/bag prior to putting on the shelf and that's not rocket science or costly. Yeah I could de rust the parts before use but that is what I am paying for when I order new parts. I think we, as a community, have just accepted that that is how it is - I for one will not accept that - Too old! BTW, when I sent a message, complaining to the supplier, I got an apology and new "selected" parts for free and the statement that the parts were new stock to them and after exam were not to their quality either! The new parts that they have now sent were from OLD STOCK! Pays to complain...

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 12:02 pm**

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 6:47 pm
ras101 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:00 pm So one thing I did not mention in my posting on bearings was that I had bought those in the early part of the year and not, say last week. Still no excuse but just saying.
So today I called into Harbor Freight, in Webster NY, and bought a O-Ring hook scribe set to remove the seal on one of the Tritan bearings and also bought a set of 3/8 drive SAE long reach hex sockets too -

When I opened the Tritan bearings I found LITTLE! to no grease!!!! no wonder the YouTube video says to open and pack. I bought "STP Moly-EP" grease for this purpose and will be doing that in a couple of days unless anyone can recommend a better alternative. Remember I only want to do this once!
A couple of other things I have decided. The first is I have two a 1979 and 1985, (Onan engines B43M and B48M) that I want to fit/replace PTO clutches on. I have decided through members feed back to retain these as manual clutches (EZ PTO Clutch). My other GT has a B&S 18HP engine and is already fitted with an Electric clutch.

After I sent this photo, I opened a second bearing just because.. I found the same thing... one side had a little grease applied but the other side NOTHING! yeah these are China bearings! We could all act out and say well what do you expect?d though that it is the same worldwide and American made bearings are the same. For me from now on I will not assume and open up al my sealed bearings and fill to capacity. As no one responded to my grease type question I will assume that my Moly Grease is good or better. I know the grease used is colored BLUE but Moly grease is black, and for a reason too. I intend to fill the bearings to capacity and let the seals decide the total fill- thank you YouTube!

You need to understand that , 1 That clear grease is synthetic , 2 if the bearing case is "Full" of grease it will expel excess grease when it heats up onto your friction disk , 3 Yes some China Bearings are inferior , but some are top grade and it is all about what the buyer at the factory level is paying for . Sometimes it is a matter of just a little less grease . And since No one else is making them here because labour is to $$ you need to learn to live with it .

So on this one Dave. Until I watched the Case tractor NE video on YouTube I would never have thought about checking grease in a sealed bearing!
Because they made such a big deal of checking I did this time and was appalled at what I found. For starters the grease used in the bearings I checked was Blue and not clear and definitely not synthetic and my grease if add is Moly , i.e Black!. It was obvious the bearing had only been filled with grease haphazardly from one side only and the reverse side had NO GREASE WHATSOEVER!. The bearings used on the PTO are sealed and not open so filling the bearing with grease will not only not leak out as you suggest but also the bearing is fitted away from the clutch surface face too. Any leakage, which I doubt will just maintain the surface of the shims and washers and stop them rusting. BTW, I love your input into my posts and find them very informative so I hope I don't offend when I push back a little..Thank you!

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:06 pm**

So, I mentioned a little while ago about rust. Our EZ PTO clutches are prone to that.. right up front behind the cooler, not painted or protected in any way, etc. So I have ALL these parts, some rusted, some badly, others that just, well you get it!, We also have grip surfaces, somewhat like a brake disk that can and does get contaminated with oil, etc. what do we do? Yeah we could take to cheap approach and try cleaning with say brake cleaner and flattening the surface with sand/emery paper (I thought about that too) but lets face it how many times do you want to do this? for me ONLY once! remember most of what we are going to work on has been working fine for 20-50 years! and its our turn to fix...

So I really, I mean really, took a very critical look at the PTO parts. First thing I did was to select the two best sets that I have! , I must admit they tended to be from the latest parts too, read that as being the most recent (I have at least 4 and often several more sets to choose from). When I looked at the metalwork, most (all) needs major rust removal using chemicals, etc and other treatments so even though the remaining pad thickness is fine I have decided to rebuild totally from scratch . I have bought/ordered new clutch linings, obtained a B&D toaster oven for $14 on Craigslist.. can you see where I am taking this thread...

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:04 pm**

@ras101 I think I know where you are going with your recent purchases... have you considered DIY electroplating of your "prone to surface rust" metal parts?
I personally haven't tried the process, but there does seem to be some info on Google and other places. I wonder if it might be more durable than paint or powder coating?
What ever you decide, your rust proofing adventures probably deserve a thread on their own - I'd certainly follow it

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 7:14 pm**

RoamingGnome wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:04 pm @ras101 I think I know where you are going with your recent purchases... have you considered DIY electroplating of your "prone to surface rust" metal parts?
I personally haven't tried the process, but there does seem to be some info on Google and other places. I wonder if it might be more durable than paint or powder coating?
What ever you decide, your rust proofing adventures probably deserve a thread on their own - I'd certainly follow it

That 'safe thought! I did some over 20 years ago but never gave it consideration for this. I will take a look.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:54 pm**

Have not been able to come here as often as we have been busy but a few things to touch on. I agree with Bob as the frustration can get real when lots of "good" and "free" advice is given all the time and then when it comes time to support those that helped, often people either conveniently forget or are penny shopping over a little difference in price etc. I say all the time "what was the advice, info given or experiences shared worth?" And at the "time" of your issue or emergency when you were frustrated how much at that time would you have been willing to pay for a answer or solution? I am sure far more than the a little price difference or shipping difference you you find when price shopping, and Auto Zone, Amazon, Mcmaster, EBay etc are not going to answer your questions, give advice, point things out etc. And people always seem to be happy or point out they found something cheaper etc than from a dealer... And When the dealers get frustrated and go away so wont the knowledge as I am sure many will have a bad taste in their mouth. Most of us do this because we have a passion for these tractors and the community and have fun doing it! As truth be told there is not a lot of money in moving parts and the margins are not big at all with these, nothing like auto parts or other businesses. We made a video about who we are and our business model and touches a few times about similar situations about free advice and price shopping and I think can speak for others on this. As we often spend 10 to 15 hours a week on average "fixing other peoples tractors for free" over messenger, emails, texts, phone calls etc. and I do not know anyone who will work 40 plus hours a month for free? So just keep that in mind when you need parts, service etc. That people are spending their time to help. So maybe Amazon is cheaper or someone has better prices, or free shipping or can walk into Napa right away etc, but are they helping you on a forum or group when you post, or answering emails,messages PHONEs at 10 o clock at night and weekends (happens every week/end night...) or can you call Amazon or Mcmaster and get a answer to your tractor question? Bob is a great guy and a great resource and we do a lot together and I am glad to call him a friend above all and most the CI dealers are good people with lots of knowledge to offer. I am glad that us talking about packing new bearings helped you and most do not think about it. We appreciate you watching thank you. In today's world profit comes ahead of all for 99 percent of manufactures. They make bearings and in the business of selling bearings, can we blame them for putting minimum grease in it? Blame no, morally, ethics....another topic. So we at CIT Northeast try to source the best quality for the best price and its a fine line balance to walk and trade off before you pay very little but for junk or or you pay lots, and lots for better quality. We try to source US and or top quality when we can, when available, and when makes financial sense. The market will only support so much as far as what you guys are willing to pay. With most bearings we found no matter where the bearings were made and from what company, very little grease is in them. Also there are garbage over seas parts and there are many good quality ones now a days, so we can no longer lump "made in China" all into the same trash can. Often there are little to no options for some stuff. Our PTO Bearings too are Imported as are the ones Directly from Ingersoll on many items. We found in our opinion better quality bearings than what OEM is now offering and thats what we choose to use and offer for sale in our PTO kits. Sure we all would like top brand and quality. But One, these are garden tractors not race cars so we have to be realistic, second are you guys going to pay $50 or more a per bearing for name brand even when made overseas often, lots to spend for a PTO on a mower? I know the market wont support $150 for 3 PTO bearings for example? When our rebuild kit includes 3 bearings, all new spacers, spring washers and clutch disk for far less than $150.. Ok Lets talk rust. I 100 percent get your point and frustration and feel it too. That said do not blame the dealers. Many, many of the parts that have been coming from Ingersoll and elseware for years now (Bob can better tell you roughly when its changed) now come raw and uncoated un painted, unfinished often and frankly sometimes things with workmanship thats sad... But Thats what we are stuck with and as they say We should be happy we can get anything.. We have thousands and thousands of inventory with surface rust, shelves filled. Now we try to coat and wrap, bag etc what we can and even paint some stuff. But the time and expense to do so and to do more is a lot and at some point is counter productive cost wise for us. The lack of quality control or unfinished products all goes against my old school work ethic and morals and quality control so thats why we often will source some things else-ware even if the cost is a little more as to do best by our customers and pride of our business. But again as dealers we can only do so much on what we receive in. I have probably 20 mower hubs assemblies on the shelf we are talking many thousands of dollars and all covered in surface rust on hubs, spindles and bearings etc....It makes me sick and before we send them out we try to clean them all up once again the best we can or sometimes get paint on them on our own time and expense. Same with tie rods, drag links steering shafts and many other things we have to clean up or coat or paint before shipping out. Its out of our hands and prices for things are high enough so again how much will the market bare and support? Will it support painted and finished items like they use to be? IDK when I see so many play the price shopping and comparison game already. But point is 95 percent of the rust or raw product issues is not on the dealers but manufactures and distributors etc. Ok lets talk PTO quick. SO yes there are different parts used and combination of parts used and sometimes I still shake my head at what I find that should not be there or used when taking them apart. As many are disasters and can not tell you the things we find on PTOs, the things we dont find lol and well sometimes things that look factory and never touched, they worked but according to parts books they are wrong lol. That said what I feel are the biggest differences are the pulleys and what you use for spacers with each style pulley one with a shoulder and one without and I think basically you make up for no shoulder one with spacers etc. The forks are I believe based off the tractor/engine than necessarily anything off the PTO itself. PTO's are over complicatedly simple lol... Once you "get it" they are pretty easy but sometimes we still get aggravated at one from time to time lol. My advice watch our video, and set your PTO up to your pulley style according to parts book and go from there it may work right off the bat. If not then post back lol Hope everyone has a Merry Christmas!

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:56 pm**

Heres a link to the video about who we are I mentioned above if anyone is interested lol https://youtu.be/IejMcesn8ps?si=fjuX0P9Oq9qOD7Bi

Posted: **Sat Dec 23, 2023 9:51 am**

ras101 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 12:02 pm
DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 6:47 pm
ras101 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:00 pm So one thing I did not mention in my posting on bearings was that I had bought those in the early part of the year and not, say last week. Still no excuse but just saying.
So today I called into Harbor Freight, in Webster NY, and bought a O-Ring hook scribe set to remove the seal on one of the Tritan bearings and also bought a set of 3/8 drive SAE long reach hex sockets too -

When I opened the Tritan bearings I found LITTLE! to no grease!!!! no wonder the YouTube video says to open and pack. I bought "STP Moly-EP" grease for this purpose and will be doing that in a couple of days unless anyone can recommend a better alternative. Remember I only want to do this once!
A couple of other things I have decided. The first is I have two a 1979 and 1985, (Onan engines B43M and B48M) that I want to fit/replace PTO clutches on. I have decided through members feed back to retain these as manual clutches (EZ PTO Clutch). My other GT has a B&S 18HP engine and is already fitted with an Electric clutch.

After I sent this photo, I opened a second bearing just because.. I found the same thing... one side had a little grease applied but the other side NOTHING! yeah these are China bearings! We could all act out and say well what do you expect?d though that it is the same worldwide and American made bearings are the same. For me from now on I will not assume and open up al my sealed bearings and fill to capacity. As no one responded to my grease type question I will assume that my Moly Grease is good or better. I know the grease used is colored BLUE but Moly grease is black, and for a reason too. I intend to fill the bearings to capacity and let the seals decide the total fill- thank you YouTube!

You need to understand that , 1 That clear grease is synthetic , 2 if the bearing case is "Full" of grease it will expel excess grease when it heats up onto your friction disk , 3 Yes some China Bearings are inferior , but some are top grade and it is all about what the buyer at the factory level is paying for . Sometimes it is a matter of just a little less grease . And since No one else is making them here because labour is to $$ you need to learn to live with it .
So on this one Dave. Until I watched the Case tractor NE video on YouTube I would never have thought about checking grease in a sealed bearing!
Because they made such a big deal of checking I did this time and was appalled at what I found. For starters the grease used in the bearings I checked was Blue and not clear and definitely not synthetic and my grease if add is Moly , i.e Black!. It was obvious the bearing had only been filled with grease haphazardly from one side only and the reverse side had NO GREASE WHATSOEVER!. The bearings used on the PTO are sealed and not open so filling the bearing with grease will not only not leak out as you suggest but also the bearing is fitted away from the clutch surface face too. Any leakage, which I doubt will just maintain the surface of the shims and washers and stop them rusting. BTW, I love your input into my posts and find them very informative so I hope I don't offend when I push back a little..Thank you!

Ras101, yes I use the black moly grease myself. I posted some pics of my 446 snow machine front end rebuild. I showed how I use a needle tip on a grease gun to fill the bearings. If it has a plastic cover I pop them off and put them back on after greasing. If they have a metal cover I have drilled a very small hole in the metal cover, enough to get the needle inside. Grease then spin the bearing until full. Then I clean the metal cover with solvent snd put a dab of silicone over the hole. This is the only way for myself to have peace of mind that I know the bearings have grease in them.

Harry

Posted: **Sat Dec 23, 2023 9:53 am**

CaseIngersollNE wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:54 pm Have not been able to come here as often as we have been busy but a few things to touch on. I agree with Bob as the frustration can get real when lots of "good" and "free" advice is given all the time and then when it comes time to support those that helped, often people either conveniently forget or are penny shopping over a little difference in price etc. I say all the time "what was the advice, info given or experiences shared worth?" And at the "time" of your issue or emergency when you were frustrated how much at that time would you have been willing to pay for a answer or solution? I am sure far more than the a little price difference or shipping difference you you find when price shopping, and Auto Zone, Amazon, Mcmaster, EBay etc are not going to answer your questions, give advice, point things out etc. And people always seem to be happy or point out they found something cheaper etc than from a dealer... And When the dealers get frustrated and go away so wont the knowledge as I am sure many will have a bad taste in their mouth. Most of us do this because we have a passion for these tractors and the community and have fun doing it! As truth be told there is not a lot of money in moving parts and the margins are not big at all with these, nothing like auto parts or other businesses. We made a video about who we are and our business model and touches a few times about similar situations about free advice and price shopping and I think can speak for others on this. As we often spend 10 to 15 hours a week on average "fixing other peoples tractors for free" over messenger, emails, texts, phone calls etc. and I do not know anyone who will work 40 plus hours a month for free? So just keep that in mind when you need parts, service etc. That people are spending their time to help. So maybe Amazon is cheaper or someone has better prices, or free shipping or can walk into Napa right away etc, but are they helping you on a forum or group when you post, or answering emails,messages PHONEs at 10 o clock at night and weekends (happens every week/end night...) or can you call Amazon or Mcmaster and get a answer to your tractor question? Bob is a great guy and a great resource and we do a lot together and I am glad to call him a friend above all and most the CI dealers are good people with lots of knowledge to offer. I am glad that us talking about packing new bearings helped you and most do not think about it. We appreciate you watching thank you. In today's world profit comes ahead of all for 99 percent of manufactures. They make bearings and in the business of selling bearings, can we blame them for putting minimum grease in it? Blame no, morally, ethics....another topic. So we at CIT Northeast try to source the best quality for the best price and its a fine line balance to walk and trade off before you pay very little but for junk or or you pay lots, and lots for better quality. We try to source US and or top quality when we can, when available, and when makes financial sense. The market will only support so much as far as what you guys are willing to pay. With most bearings we found no matter where the bearings were made and from what company, very little grease is in them. Also there are garbage over seas parts and there are many good quality ones now a days, so we can no longer lump "made in China" all into the same trash can. Often there are little to no options for some stuff. Our PTO Bearings too are Imported as are the ones Directly from Ingersoll on many items. We found in our opinion better quality bearings than what OEM is now offering and thats what we choose to use and offer for sale in our PTO kits. Sure we all would like top brand and quality. But One, these are garden tractors not race cars so we have to be realistic, second are you guys going to pay $50 or more a per bearing for name brand even when made overseas often, lots to spend for a PTO on a mower? I know the market wont support $150 for 3 PTO bearings for example? When our rebuild kit includes 3 bearings, all new spacers, spring washers and clutch disk for far less than $150.. Ok Lets talk rust. I 100 percent get your point and frustration and feel it too. That said do not blame the dealers. Many, many of the parts that have been coming from Ingersoll and elseware for years now (Bob can better tell you roughly when its changed) now come raw and uncoated un painted, unfinished often and frankly sometimes things with workmanship thats sad... But Thats what we are stuck with and as they say We should be happy we can get anything.. We have thousands and thousands of inventory with surface rust, shelves filled. Now we try to coat and wrap, bag etc what we can and even paint some stuff. But the time and expense to do so and to do more is a lot and at some point is counter productive cost wise for us. The lack of quality control or unfinished products all goes against my old school work ethic and morals and quality control so thats why we often will source some things else-ware even if the cost is a little more as to do best by our customers and pride of our business. But again as dealers we can only do so much on what we receive in. I have probably 20 mower hubs assemblies on the shelf we are talking many thousands of dollars and all covered in surface rust on hubs, spindles and bearings etc....It makes me sick and before we send them out we try to clean them all up once again the best we can or sometimes get paint on them on our own time and expense. Same with tie rods, drag links steering shafts and many other things we have to clean up or coat or paint before shipping out. Its out of our hands and prices for things are high enough so again how much will the market bare and support? Will it support painted and finished items like they use to be? IDK when I see so many play the price shopping and comparison game already. But point is 95 percent of the rust or raw product issues is not on the dealers but manufactures and distributors etc. Ok lets talk PTO quick. SO yes there are different parts used and combination of parts used and sometimes I still shake my head at what I find that should not be there or used when taking them apart. As many are disasters and can not tell you the things we find on PTOs, the things we dont find lol and well sometimes things that look factory and never touched, they worked but according to parts books they are wrong lol. That said what I feel are the biggest differences are the pulleys and what you use for spacers with each style pulley one with a shoulder and one without and I think basically you make up for no shoulder one with spacers etc. The forks are I believe based off the tractor/engine than necessarily anything off the PTO itself. PTO's are over complicatedly simple lol... Once you "get it" they are pretty easy but sometimes we still get aggravated at one from time to time lol. My advice watch our video, and set your PTO up to your pulley style according to parts book and go from there it may work right off the bat. If not then post back lol Hope everyone has a Merry Christmas!

CINE, quite the ramble, thanks for taking the time and effort for your thoughts.

Harry

Posted: **Sat Dec 23, 2023 11:30 am**

CaseIngersollNE wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:54 pm Have not been able to come here as often as we have been busy but a few things to touch on. I agree with Bob as the frustration can get real when lots of "good" and "free" advice is given all the time and then when it comes time to support those that helped, often people either conveniently forget or are penny shopping over a little difference in price etc. I say all the time "what was the advice, info given or experiences shared worth?" And at the "time" of your issue or emergency when you were frustrated how much at that time would you have been willing to pay for a answer or solution? I am sure far more than the a little price difference or shipping difference you you find when price shopping, and Auto Zone, Amazon, Mcmaster, EBay etc are not going to answer your questions, give advice, point things out etc. And people always seem to be happy or point out they found something cheaper etc than from a dealer... And When the dealers get frustrated and go away so wont the knowledge as I am sure many will have a bad taste in their mouth. Most of us do this because we have a passion for these tractors and the community and have fun doing it! As truth be told there is not a lot of money in moving parts and the margins are not big at all with these, nothing like auto parts or other businesses. We made a video about who we are and our business model and touches a few times about similar situations about free advice and price shopping and I think can speak for others on this. As we often spend 10 to 15 hours a week on average "fixing other peoples tractors for free" over messenger, emails, texts, phone calls etc. and I do not know anyone who will work 40 plus hours a month for free? So just keep that in mind when you need parts, service etc. That people are spending their time to help. So maybe Amazon is cheaper or someone has better prices, or free shipping or can walk into Napa right away etc, but are they helping you on a forum or group when you post, or answering emails,messages PHONEs at 10 o clock at night and weekends (happens every week/end night...) or can you call Amazon or Mcmaster and get a answer to your tractor question? Bob is a great guy and a great resource and we do a lot together and I am glad to call him a friend above all and most the CI dealers are good people with lots of knowledge to offer. I am glad that us talking about packing new bearings helped you and most do not think about it. We appreciate you watching thank you. In today's world profit comes ahead of all for 99 percent of manufactures. They make bearings and in the business of selling bearings, can we blame them for putting minimum grease in it? Blame no, morally, ethics....another topic. So we at CIT Northeast try to source the best quality for the best price and its a fine line balance to walk and trade off before you pay very little but for junk or or you pay lots, and lots for better quality. We try to source US and or top quality when we can, when available, and when makes financial sense. The market will only support so much as far as what you guys are willing to pay. With most bearings we found no matter where the bearings were made and from what company, very little grease is in them. Also there are garbage over seas parts and there are many good quality ones now a days, so we can no longer lump "made in China" all into the same trash can. Often there are little to no options for some stuff. Our PTO Bearings too are Imported as are the ones Directly from Ingersoll on many items. We found in our opinion better quality bearings than what OEM is now offering and thats what we choose to use and offer for sale in our PTO kits. Sure we all would like top brand and quality. But One, these are garden tractors not race cars so we have to be realistic, second are you guys going to pay $50 or more a per bearing for name brand even when made overseas often, lots to spend for a PTO on a mower? I know the market wont support $150 for 3 PTO bearings for example? When our rebuild kit includes 3 bearings, all new spacers, spring washers and clutch disk for far less than $150.. Ok Lets talk rust. I 100 percent get your point and frustration and feel it too. That said do not blame the dealers. Many, many of the parts that have been coming from Ingersoll and elseware for years now (Bob can better tell you roughly when its changed) now come raw and uncoated un painted, unfinished often and frankly sometimes things with workmanship thats sad... But Thats what we are stuck with and as they say We should be happy we can get anything.. We have thousands and thousands of inventory with surface rust, shelves filled. Now we try to coat and wrap, bag etc what we can and even paint some stuff. But the time and expense to do so and to do more is a lot and at some point is counter productive cost wise for us. The lack of quality control or unfinished products all goes against my old school work ethic and morals and quality control so thats why we often will source some things else-ware even if the cost is a little more as to do best by our customers and pride of our business. But again as dealers we can only do so much on what we receive in. I have probably 20 mower hubs assemblies on the shelf we are talking many thousands of dollars and all covered in surface rust on hubs, spindles and bearings etc....It makes me sick and before we send them out we try to clean them all up once again the best we can or sometimes get paint on them on our own time and expense. Same with tie rods, drag links steering shafts and many other things we have to clean up or coat or paint before shipping out. Its out of our hands and prices for things are high enough so again how much will the market bare and support? Will it support painted and finished items like they use to be? IDK when I see so many play the price shopping and comparison game already. But point is 95 percent of the rust or raw product issues is not on the dealers but manufactures and distributors etc. Ok lets talk PTO quick. SO yes there are different parts used and combination of parts used and sometimes I still shake my head at what I find that should not be there or used when taking them apart. As many are disasters and can not tell you the things we find on PTOs, the things we dont find lol and well sometimes things that look factory and never touched, they worked but according to parts books they are wrong lol. That said what I feel are the biggest differences are the pulleys and what you use for spacers with each style pulley one with a shoulder and one without and I think basically you make up for no shoulder one with spacers etc. The forks are I believe based off the tractor/engine than necessarily anything off the PTO itself. PTO's are over complicatedly simple lol... Once you "get it" they are pretty easy but sometimes we still get aggravated at one from time to time lol. My advice watch our video, and set your PTO up to your pulley style according to parts book and go from there it may work right off the bat. If not then post back lol Hope everyone has a Merry Christmas!

Thank you for your contribution to my post here. I agree totally with your comments, as I did with Bob and apologize once again to all. For me personally and I'm sure the forum as a whole take great store in your valued participation in our posts and help in understanding the bigger picture. Just for the record when I started researching EZ clutches (my prior knowledge was with a 1977 shim style), I went to YouTube and well your video was invaluable in my knowledge. I know, thinking about it more since, that it took time and effort on your companies part to make that and share on line. I also know we Case/Ingersoll enthusiasts only have a limited number of dealers now that stock the parts we need too. I am also guilty perhaps on chasing the dollar too, even when that might only be a penny or two! chalk that down to living on a pension!
Ray

Posted: **Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:57 pm**

So, I got a couple of new nuts, 129-125 1/2" NF to replace the lock nuts fitted b the PO. Neither screw onto a NEW, repeat NEW Hub by hand? Yeah, they get about 4-5 threads on, no issue, but after that lock tight. Don't want to use a wrench right now but have ordered a die to chase the threads... is this normal?

Posted: **Sat Dec 23, 2023 3:05 pm**

So here's where I am at right now.

Bought parts - shims, etc from SalemPwr - really not impressed at all at the shims were rusty right out the bag.. Complained and they checked and agreed and have sent replacements that are due after Christmas now.. In my opinion that is, and never has been, acceptable! It never has been rocket science to add a little oil spray to a bag to stop rust!
Bought the same shims from Casegardentractorparts.com and they were perfect! no rust, individually packed, etc.!! thank you Bob! (sorry to call out suppliers but when its due...)

So I now have a new Onan PTO Hub, I have new wavy washers and shims too and new sealed bearing that I will fill with STP Moly grease and refit the bearing seals.

I have new clutch pads friction discs and have a B&D toaster oven to install them at 400 degrees..

I have Evapo- Rust solution to remove rust from the PTO parts mainly the clutch pulley and will be removing the existing clutch disk first

A brake cleaner to remove surface oil from parts before I start too.

What am I missing??

Posted: **Sat Dec 23, 2023 4:06 pm**

ras101 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:57 pm So, I got a couple of new nuts, 129-125 1/2" NF to replace the lock nuts fitted b the PO. Neither screw onto a NEW, repeat NEW Hub by hand? Yeah, they get about 4-5 threads on, no issue, but after that lock tight. Don't want to use a wrench right now but have ordered a die to chase the threads... is this normal?

Clutch hubs are often shipped to us from our supplier with up to ten in a box, smaller quantities are often bagged and the threads can get banged up a bit in transit. Yes, a thread chaser could be used to clean them up, perhaps that's something that we can look at in the future before shipment. What I usually do when installing a new hub is to back the bolt out of the hub and reinstall it to the proper torque. The removal usually cleans up any nicked threads so that the EZ adjust nut and lock nuts thread on correctly.

Bob

Posted: **Sun Dec 24, 2023 11:50 am**

So this is going to sound very weird, but perhaps not, except I am probably trashing a perfectly good clutch surface. Anyone removeed an old surface and placed with new? What is the best way you have found to remove? I have great direction for install but not the best way to remove. Is there a solvent that works of is it just manual labor? I have two to remove...

Posted: **Sun Dec 24, 2023 12:14 pm**

myerslawnandgarden wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 4:06 pm
ras101 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:57 pm So, I got a couple of new nuts, 129-125 1/2" NF to replace the lock nuts fitted b the PO. Neither screw onto a NEW, repeat NEW Hub by hand? Yeah, they get about 4-5 threads on, no issue, but after that lock tight. Don't want to use a wrench right now but have ordered a die to chase the threads... is this normal?
Clutch hubs are often shipped to us from our supplier with up to ten in a box, smaller quantities are often bagged and the threads can get banged up a bit in transit. Yes, a thread chaser could be used to clean them up, perhaps that's something that we can look at in the future before shipment. What I usually do when installing a new hub is to back the bolt out of the hub and reinstall it to the proper torque. The removal usually cleans up any nicked threads so that the EZ adjust nut and lock nuts thread on correctly.

Bob

Bob, did a little more digging on the thread issue and I am not at all convinced that it is a hub thread issue at all! All the adjuster nuts (I have 4 sets fit and run on the hub threads just fine by hand. The new nuts I bought though don't!! I think I am going to buy new nuts from a different source and try. Thank you though for listening and reacting too. My understanding is the nuts are 1/2"X20 NF. I will buy new grade 8 nuts to try.. keep you informed.

Posted: **Sun Dec 24, 2023 12:34 pm**

Anyone used "Evapo-Rust" for surface rust removal? I searched the web and this stuff had a very good rating. I bought a quart to try but wondered whether members had best practices when using?

Posted: **Sun Dec 24, 2023 1:22 pm**

I have, yes. It depends what parts you are working on; in my experience it's good for small parts that you can submerge in the liquid. For bigger parts that I want to paint, after some wire wheeling, a treatment that contains phosphoric acid, as it primes the metal for painting.

Posted: **Sun Dec 24, 2023 2:23 pm**

Eugen wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 1:22 pm I have, yes. It depends what parts you are working on; in my experience it's good for small parts that you can submerge in the liquid. For bigger parts that I want to paint, after some wire wheeling, a treatment that contains phosphoric acid, as it primes the metal for painting.

Eugen, any recommendations you care to share?

Posted: **Sun Dec 24, 2023 2:47 pm**

For large parts and preparation for painting you guys in the :usa:

have Ospho. I wish we could get that here.

Posted: **Sun Dec 24, 2023 2:52 pm**

Ospho is available from Amazon!

What do others think? is this a great buy?

Posted: **Sun Dec 24, 2023 4:43 pm**

Just know guys, I know we are small group, and probably an off shoot from the large forum too. For me though I feel comfortable to share more of myself here too.. also think sometimes that larger groups tend to get more territorial and regulated too and that does not help us to share our thoughts as some might be controversial too., I can only thank Eugen for allowing conversation for that to happen too. Thank you!

Posted: **Tue Dec 26, 2023 12:18 pm**

Ray hope it did not come across as I was singling you out, by no means I was. Was just responding in general and thanking you for watching our video and the shout out. So I can see how it may have seemed so lol.

Posted: **Wed Jan 03, 2024 11:54 am**

ras101 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 11:10 am So here's the first question and where I am trying to take this thread..

I have found two styles/types of PTO Cams (shown below)!
The outside dimension for both is the same and I thought it was just a different machine shop style but if you take a closer look the bearings are fitted from the opposite sides to each other? I assume one set are early production and the other later so which set are the ones intended for a 1985 448 GT..?

I have checked the parts list drawings for all the 448 variants since conception till they move to four digit and they all show the cams with lobes..

If that is the case (pun very much intended) what is the "other style" used on?

First edit: I had never seen the last version of the PTO parts. I was not even aware that they made one out of machined parts or cammed parts.

I am late to the thread. So, my replies are as I read along. The OEM PTO cams are the ones with the ears. The examples that are round all the way are made and as you found are made wrong. So, toss the made ones and get some replacements.

Posted: **Wed Jan 03, 2024 11:57 am**

ras101 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 1:26 pm Thanks again Bob, but why is the entry of the bearings reversed/ From what you have said I will be using the machined version as I have two sets of those...

I too am in the what about the bearing coming in from the wrong side camp. I know how each part works and has to be in harmony as in there is a 100% correct way of doing this and then all other ways are 100% wrong.

Posted: **Wed Jan 03, 2024 12:46 pm**

ras101 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 12:14 pm
myerslawnandgarden wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 4:06 pm
ras101 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:57 pm So, I got a couple of new nuts, 129-125 1/2" NF to replace the lock nuts fitted b the PO. Neither screw onto a NEW, repeat NEW Hub by hand? Yeah, they get about 4-5 threads on, no issue, but after that lock tight. Don't want to use a wrench right now but have ordered a die to chase the threads... is this normal?
Clutch hubs are often shipped to us from our supplier with up to ten in a box, smaller quantities are often bagged and the threads can get banged up a bit in transit. Yes, a thread chaser could be used to clean them up, perhaps that's something that we can look at in the future before shipment. What I usually do when installing a new hub is to back the bolt out of the hub and reinstall it to the proper torque. The removal usually cleans up any nicked threads so that the EZ adjust nut and lock nuts thread on correctly.

Bob
Bob, did a little more digging on the thread issue and I am not at all convinced that it is a hub thread issue at all! All the adjuster nuts (I have 4 sets fit and run on the hub threads just fine by hand. The new nuts I bought though don't!! I think I am going to buy new nuts from a different source and try. Thank you though for listening and reacting too. My understanding is the nuts are 1/2"X20 NF. I will buy new grade 8 nuts to try.. keep you informed.

You may want to invest in a set of thread chasers. The SAE set will come with with both thread counts for each bolt or nut size. These thread chasers are not as aggressive in their cut as you run them through. I take the heads off, the intake and exhaust off, and many other things as a way to see how everything is doing on every machine that I am told to do the Hemlock Case Guy run-through. That was a pun. I clean all the thread and bead blast the bolts and head washers to remove that aged rust. You cannot reinstall fasteners to torque specs if they are rusted and if they are oiled. Once they are installed you can surface coat them.

Posted: **Wed Jan 03, 2024 12:57 pm**

I have no way of knowing the other video is on these. But it will not hurt anything for you to look at mine as well. I made this one many years ago. Instead of just saying that you follow the manual and install it that way I tried to really expand on each part and what it does.

Some day I need to have someone take a video of me while I am doing the final adjustment, blindfolded. That is how easy it is once the light lights up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEr3lLbluzc&t=12s

Posted: **Fri Jan 05, 2024 9:55 pm**

Do not toss those non ear bearing retainer cam replacement.... I believe yours are OEM, they have been without ears for a long time and worth something so keep them unless for some reason you think yours are not OEM... Bob has them in stock.
https://www.casegardentractorparts.com/c4ptoclcam.html Happy New Year all

Posted: **Wed Jan 10, 2024 2:56 pm**

CaseIngersollNE wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 9:55 pm Do not toss those non ear bearing retainer cam replacement.... I believe yours are OEM, they have been without ears for a long time and worth something so keep them unless for some reason you think yours are not OEM... Bob has them in stock.
https://www.casegardentractorparts.com/c4ptoclcam.html Happy New Year all

Thank you! never intended too. Found that there are two versions of "cams". The first style is the "cast cam" with the lobes but the second style , since 2012 is the machined cam. As I have said before here, my choices are based on "want to this once" and I guess also to build the latest too, I have spent a lot of time, I mean a lot of time, working through the various options. getting ready to share my findings here too.

So far I have built the PTO clutch 3 times! hopefully the forth will prove my theory right. Lets be sure though that there have been many updates and adaptions of the PTO clutch over the years and since too.

Just for a starter.. anyone that is fitting new bearings - CHECK THEM! don't care of the make , model, source, as I have sourced several both USA and China made. ALL are lacking lubricant, some much more than others, but still short!

I am still working through my final solution and hope to be able to release in the next couple of weeks, and yes i will take pics..

Again , I want to do this once.. Well for the next 15 years or so at least

Posted: **Fri Jan 12, 2024 4:20 pm**

So where I'm I now? really good question! so I threw money at my issue... and as you should know that is not good for a pensioner to do...

My aim though as I live in WNY that gets snow, yeah I mean snow and not sprinkles is that the GT Works for a living!

So started working through the process and have picked a pulley (one of the larger sized ones I mention earlier) )and cleaned it using a brass brush on my drill press. and emery cloth too. I will show a pic soon of that.

I have bought and will use almost new parts for the whole assembly (because I have two to build (a 1979 446 and 1985 and a 448) . the current project, (a 1985) needs some attention. The PO really did a number on this! I am/will take a lot of pics as I sort this out and rebuilding is not easy. I have ended up buying new several parts and will identify those and others as I move forward. For this rebuild most parts therefore will be new or close to it. In addition ALL parts will be checked for size, etc using calipers, et c. Want a definitive guided to PTO clutch then follow this guide. Another thing I have learnt for posting here prior is that the only way to make a guide is to do off line, i.e pic and document then save and share as a whole document so that is what I will do here. My offerings though will be based entirely on the latest! Things such as cast cams or machined cams, etc, will not/ever be discussed by me as I know they are there (and I have two good condition sets of cast cams available (should you need them) and will be using machined cams myself.

So far I have totally removed all the rust/corrosion from the PTO pulley and removed and installed a new clutch disc. It was very easy following strict instructions and I did this using a wood chisel and heat to remove the old surface and following up with emery cloth till bright and cleaned with brake cleaner too.

Used a B&D oven set to 400 degrees for 30 minutes and set the clutch disk too. Yeah, I made a clamp, per instructions and then added the disc before using the oven. This is the first of two I will doing...

Just know I only want to do this once SO i AM GOING TO REPLACE PARTS THAT MIGHT STILL HAVE A FEW MONTHS/years of life left!

Ray

Posted: **Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:15 pm**

So, still working my Ez clutch on my 448! taken it down now several times to rebuild - hopefully a saga soon of not what to do...

In my ongoing search for info, pics etc. I ended up on Casegardentractorparts.com (not hard as Bob is one of my go-to suppliers) looking for EZ clutch parts, etc. Looking through Bob's offerings I opened the Onan full clutch assembly (still think that had I done that before , even at slightly over $500 it would have made my life so much easier). The thing that really popped though was the photo of the whole assembly - the best I have seen anywhere on the web. I hope Bob does not mind me uploading it here - Also Bob has each and every piece for sale too. Thank you Bob..

Posted: **Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:53 pm**

Of particular note is the newer fork and CAM. The older cams were cast and profiled the newer are machined.

In previous posts I talked about pulley sizes - there seemed to be two sizes. I was assured that they were equivalent... well I rebuilt the smaller size pulley thinking it might be the latest...totally cleaned, removed the friction disk and replaced, new bearing etc. Then found that the bearing was so loose in the pulley that the pulley moved independent and no way would that work!
So now down a new friction disk and a discarded pulley too. ... Still have two pulleys though that are same shape an size,etc. but only one new unused too. Right now I will clean (using brake cleaner) and reuse an existing pulley /friction disk, etc. +
Temps tomorrow in WNY are supposed to be in the 50s so I will be rebuilding my PTO! stay tuned...

Posted: **Thu Feb 08, 2024 10:24 pm**

If your pulley is not very worn some have used thin layer of Loctite or JB Weld type products, as long as bearings are new/good it should not take much friction/resistance to have the path of choice for rotation turn to the bearings as least resistance. Most the time we just clean the face of the front lip that bearings face up too and do not clean the part where the outer races mate, unless they are real bad. And just a light coat of oil so the races do not rust TO the housing and helps a little with install. PS think BoB waxed that assembly so it looks like "silver plated" lol

Posted: **Fri Feb 09, 2024 12:13 am**

CaseIngersollNE wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 10:24 pm If your pulley is not very worn some have used thin layer of Loctite or JB Weld type products, as long as bearings are new/good it should not take much friction/resistance to have the path of choice for rotation turn to the bearings as least resistance. Most the time we just clean the face of the front lip that bearings face up too and do not clean the part where the outer races mate, unless they are real bad. And just a light coat of oil so the races do not rust TO the housing and helps a little with install. PS think BoB waxed that assembly so it looks like "silver plated" lol

Through the past years there have been quite a few times when the bore of a new pulley was too big, you would start to install the bearing, it would go in easily and fall right out. It's not off much, maybe a thou or two. I go around the middle of the ID in the bore of the pulley with a center punch about every 1/4 inch and that seems to correct the fit, doesn't take much to keep the race from turning as CaseIngersollNE mentions. Green loctite is a good choice in addition to this procedure until time to remove the bearing for replacement, then some heat is required.

Bob

Posted: **Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:23 am**

myerslawnandgarden wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 12:13 am
CaseIngersollNE wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 10:24 pm If your pulley is not very worn some have used thin layer of Loctite or JB Weld type products, as long as bearings are new/good it should not take much friction/resistance to have the path of choice for rotation turn to the bearings as least resistance. Most the time we just clean the face of the front lip that bearings face up too and do not clean the part where the outer races mate, unless they are real bad. And just a light coat of oil so the races do not rust TO the housing and helps a little with install. PS think BoB waxed that assembly so it looks like "silver plated" lol
Through the past years there have been quite a few times when the bore of a new pulley was too big, you would start to install the bearing, it would go in easily and fall right out. It's not off much, maybe a thou or two. I go around the middle of the ID in the bore of the pulley with a center punch about every 1/4 inch and that seems to correct the fit, doesn't take much to keep the race from turning as CaseIngersollNE mentions. Green loctite is a good choice in addition to this procedure until time to remove the bearing for replacement, then some heat is required.

Bob

Bob, that is a great idea! I shall have to try that and see if I can reclaim the pulley and friction disc for a spare..

Ray

Posted: **Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:30 am**

Yes have done that too Bob works well as said does not take much!

Posted: **Sat Feb 10, 2024 11:18 am**

So yesterday we had a 57 degree day!!! and I managed to get outside and really start work on the PTO. Got a few pics too and found a neat trick when assembling that helped me a lot!

Still not completely satisfied though I can/do get the 3 clicks that everyone talks about it just seems a little "off" still. I did notice, this time that the PO had "worked" on the fork - he had changed the fork ends - yeah those ends that contact the cams. That explained the brand new short fork without "ends" that was in the spares pack he gave me. It would seem he had bought the wrong fork (short vs long) and took parts from that and fitted (riveted) those to the old fork he wanted to replace? Did he get it right - I don't know but other things he has done tend to tell me otherwise.

So back to having assembled the PTO again and set the gap, yet again, still not happy! I know I am a perfectionist by heart so going to tear it down again (can put these PTO's together in my sleep now!) I have an older style fork (that I got from Ebay as part of a Kohlar clutch)and I am going to fit that instead! - see you on the "other side". Just a few pics

Oh what was my revelation? When assembling the wavy washers, pulley and cams then trying to fit that last washer, yeah you know the one... is problematic at best. My solution was a strap wrench around the last pulley and the tower that pulled the assembly tight and gave full access to the hub for that last washer - no more struggling!

Stay tuned...

Ray

Posted: **Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:19 pm**

Well, even after all this I am STILL not happy!!! Yeah the clutch seems to work, but it does not SNAP into place either, even now. So what next?

I am sure now that the PO has played with the fork!! In fact I know he did. Yeah I have another fork that is an earlier version but how many times do I do this? I have new wavy washers and shims, I have rebuilt the pulley completely, I have new bearings throughout,I'm using new style cams,and even a new hub, Have new cupped washers too, etc, etc.

The whole assembly has been built and checked now with feeler gauges at least three times and yet I am NOT satisfied so what now?

I have just bought the bullet and ordered a COMPLETE PTO, yeah I know the cost is over $500 , from Bob at Casegardentractors.com to replace the whole dam thing! not wasting any more time. Bobs offering provides an assembly that completely works together and has the latest parts too.. It's either that or change to an electric clutch..

Can you tell I am frustrated!

Ray

Posted: **Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:23 pm**

hello Ray, sorry to read your still having a problem with this, only thing I wonder about is everything before the point where clutch arm does its job, no expert here by any means but thinking maybe something is bent and not giving full travel. I enjoy following along and reading your postings, thank you for letting us view what your up too, case - Ingersoll is my favorite garden tractors looking forward to the aha moment :creeper:

Kyle

Posted: **Mon Feb 12, 2024 12:21 pm**

THEOTHERHALF wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:23 pm hello Ray, sorry to read your still having a problem with this, only thing I wonder about is everything before the point where clutch arm does its job, no expert here by any means but thinking maybe something is bent and not giving full travel. I enjoy following along and reading your postings, thank you for letting us view what your up too, case - Ingersoll is my favorite garden tractors looking forward to the aha moment Kyle

Kyle, thanks for your kind words.

As far as the PTO in concerned I did check the linkage and did not notice any issues other than a worn out bush at the fork that I replaced when I started the rebuild. The fork has a lot of evidence though of PO tampering and looks like the PO replaced the fork ends at some point.

Ray

Posted: **Wed Feb 14, 2024 10:46 am**

I almost made a big mistake! Thanks to Bob @ myerslawnandgarden who texted me and told me I had ordered the wrong PTO! I had inadvertently ordered one with a 5 1/2 fork and I needed the 6 1/2 version. Bob has/had been following my posting and had noted the issue.. We resolved the issue and the correct part is now on its way - should be here tomorrow.

Its nice to know our dealers are following us here and have our backs!
Ray

Posted: **Fri Feb 16, 2024 10:58 am**

Received my total PTO clutch assembly today! Yeah one day later than planned but not the fault of Bob @ myerslawnandgarden but the USPS transit and above all the weather. The part was very well packed and there was even a surprise too, actually several surprises .

The first was Bob had taken the time to mark some of the parts - the fan to show the front - great idea!. The second marking the cams - I think all cams should be marked to show "rear" and "front" and "top". I think that we should all do that anyway before disassembling. My thanks to Bob for taking the time and making my job easier (another example of our suppliers looking after us!)
Another surprise was that the assembly came with new countersunk Allen screws and countersunk washers too. Yeah the "complete package"

Hoping to start installing this tomorrow and will take pics as I progress but the weather right now is against me - WNY and snowing like hell! sorry for the profanity. .

Ray

Posted: **Fri Feb 16, 2024 1:07 pm**

One thing that really stood out with the new PTO was that the Pulley/clutch face was the smaller diameter! if you have been following this thread you will know what I mean! Part of why I ordered the complete kit was because I have maybe 4-5 kits of PTO parts from various sources and over several years now and have really no idea what works with what. Couple that with assembling my latest clutch and not happy with the engagement I needed a restart on my thinking too. So from my initial assessment, and remember initial is the word here, the smaller diameter pulley is part of the newer style as are the machined cams rather than the cast cams, etc. BTW, there's nothing wrong with the earlier versions just that I am trying to build the latest and greatest..

Ray

Posted: **Fri Feb 16, 2024 3:40 pm**

So Bob,# myerslawnandgarden, I am already impressed!!! I have had a real chance to review my PTO clutch you sent. As I said it arrived only this morning so early days but WOW.
The first thing that really got to me after I settled down was that there are Sooooo many changes to these parts over even a short period of Case/Ingersoll time and some need to be updated together or not at all. When we buy parts , I am not sure any of us really understand the changes that have been made since our model was made. Not talking about an individual part (correction yes I am!). I have found out that parts are not necessarily interchangeable. I think we need perhaps more help from our suppliers to understand what works together and what does not and basically encourage us to include this item, or that when we order new parts. As I have said previously there are different sized pulleys, cams that have changed, even belts that are different lengths because of parts changes, etc. perhaps a chart might help? not sure but when we order parts we should know what we need and not what we hope we need. Lets face it, especially for say winter when we need a part to run our GT's it needs to be the correct part every time! As we get older, hand shoveling the driveway is not an option but life threatening.

Bob i really have no complaint with you and your company either, in effect I am really impressed. I do however ask that you try even harder too. Help us maintain our beloved machines. Lets make them the best they can be.. Take the lead here.. Tell us how we can do this? rather than sitting back and waiting for our questions. An example might be "we are coming up for winter.. consider an oil change - offer solutions and parts, change belts with solutions, etc
. Its that type of thing I am thinking here.. You my friend have taken that at least halfway or more I am hoping you close the loop here too.

Am I asking too much of our suppliers?
Ray

Posted: **Fri Feb 16, 2024 6:37 pm**

Hi Ray, I was just wondering if the fork difference was the problem when not getting the snap, while engaging your rebuilt clutch ? Kyle

Posted: **Fri Feb 16, 2024 7:05 pm**

THEOTHERHALF wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 6:37 pm Hi Ray, I was just wondering if the fork difference was the problem when not getting the snap, while engaging your rebuilt clutch ? Kyle

Kyle, not sure yet but stay tuned...

Posted: **Sat Feb 17, 2024 11:36 am**

So I was about to start work yet again on fitting my totally new PTO to my 1985 448 and well just stopped! Why? well having gone through the previous few weeks with parts that had been cleaned, various part designs, sizes, etc. I wanted to record completely my experience for both myself and others. I know now that even EZ adjust clutches have gone though multiple "upgrades" over the years and since Ingersoll stopped production too. Like, i think most of you, the changes that have been made to the parts, were made with interchangeability in mind - found out that is wrong big time!

When I started this thread I thought that perhaps the conversation might go a couple of weeks at best but guys it is obvious that this subject is important to all of us. So I have stepped back... No not that I will not share, quite the contrary I want to make a meaningful EZ PTO source for our future here. I will probably start a new thread rather than continue this one as I want to condense the final to help everyone into the future. My intent is to create the posting off line so the whole posting appears complete with no comments between. There will be plenty of pics though!

Ray

Posted: **Sat Feb 17, 2024 5:47 pm**

ras101 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2024 11:36 am So I was about to start work yet again on fitting my totally new PTO to my 1985 448 and well just stopped! Why? well having gone through the previous few weeks with parts that had been cleaned, various part designs, sizes, etc. I wanted to record completely my experience for both myself and others. I know now that even EZ adjust clutches have gone though multiple "upgrades" over the years and since Ingersoll stopped production too. Like, i think most of you, the changes that have been made to the parts, were made with interchangeability in mind - found out that is wrong big time!

When I started this thread I thought that perhaps the conversation might go a couple of weeks at best but guys it is obvious that this subject is important to all of us. So I have stepped back... No not that I will not share, quite the contrary I want to make a meaningful EZ PTO source for our future here. I will probably start a new thread rather than continue this one as I want to condense the final to help everyone into the future. My intent is to create the posting off line so the whole posting appears complete with no comments between. There will be plenty of pics though!

Ray

Ray, you could create a word document or pdf and upload it in the technical section.

Posted: **Mon Feb 19, 2024 12:06 pm**

When I complete this I will definitely create a new thread in the Technical Library detailing the EZ PTO Clutch..

For now this is really more of a blog of where I am, etc.

As you know, if you have followed along I bought a complete new PTO from Bob @ casegardentractorparts.com. Thank you for the quick update and help!
Took the assembled PTO apart and segregated it from my "other" parts that were in my stash. Besides ending up with a complete and working PTO I also wanted to check my "other" parts too. First thing I noticed is My machined cams, not the cast profiled cams were the latest (really no surprise here).
The second was that the pulley was the small diameter version I mentioned earlier in this post that I reworked with a new friction disc, etc.
Another thing I want to draw your attention too is the fork - the new fork matched the fork I was using but with a small (I think big) issue my original fork had been REWORKED! fork was slightly different so obviously not the same manufacturer but my original had been "tampered with" i.e the fork ends had been ground off (i.e, the rivets had been ground and it looks like the fork ends are from a different fork, possibly the short version that I got in the PO kit of parts?

The cams I am using are definitely the latest version, machined and not profiled too.

I think, having a complete factory PTO has helped me tremendously to identify what is wrong with my PTO. For those following this thread all I can say is stay tuned .. there's more to come here...

Posted: **Mon Feb 19, 2024 2:47 pm**

So every felt vindicated/right!? I have just finished a total measurement of the" parts" for my EZ clutch. Sorry not into going back years and checking - that's yours to deal with. What I am talking about is NOW! For me how do I create/build the LATEST product? my motivation is that the latest includes ALL the previous issues too and above all, all the latest machining too? So if you have been following here you will know that I have two different size pulleys, cams that are either profiled or straight, etc. Bottom line guys is that the smaller pulley is the newest, the cam latest cam is machined and not profiled either. Number of other things too.. Follow this thread for more inf.

Posted: **Mon Feb 19, 2024 3:37 pm**

So my first concern...

The PTO shaft measured at 0.1180" OD with a digital caliper and the Id of the washer measured at 1.257" ". The washer seems very loose. Probably ok but just seems odd as the wavy washers, etc were very close to the shaft OD.

Posted: **Mon Feb 19, 2024 5:08 pm**

Here is a copy of the original engineering drawing for the C15557 (and also C15556) shim washers, notice that they do not carry the dimensions out to the 3rd decimal as the size is not that critical.

Bob

Posted: **Sat Feb 24, 2024 2:26 pm**

Just bought some 6206-2rs bearings for Amazon for this project. Why because for less than $10 i GOT TWO BEARINGS! so like all the others I opened the bearing, yea it was sealed . End result is there was grease ! the grease quantity was very lacking! These bearing probably had less grease than all others I have opened so far too! Just know that I will be adding a substantial amount to these bearings (PGN) before I use them!

Posted: **Sat Feb 24, 2024 3:06 pm**

ras101 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2024 2:26 pm Just bought some 6206-2rs bearings for Amazon for this project. Why because for less than $10 i GOT TWO BEARINGS! so like all the others I opened the bearing, yea it was sealed . End result is there was grease ! the grease quantity was very lacking! These bearing probably had less grease than all others I have opened so far too! Just know that I will be adding a substantial amount to these bearings (PGN) before I use them!

We recently changed to the PGN bearing for our price point PTO offering. At this time about 75 are out in service with no complaints or early failures, the quality seems to be good with respect to the price. Currently we are at $3.47 each on these.

https://www.casegardentractorparts.com/15ptoclbe.html

Bob

Posted: **Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:47 am**

I have been using PGN bearings for a while too. I cannot compare with the big names, but they work. I do pack them new with better grease though.

Posted: **Mon Feb 26, 2024 12:44 pm**

myerslawnandgarden wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2024 3:06 pm
ras101 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2024 2:26 pm Just bought some 6206-2rs bearings for Amazon for this project. Why because for less than $10 i GOT TWO BEARINGS! so like all the others I opened the bearing, yea it was sealed . End result is there was grease ! the grease quantity was very lacking! These bearing probably had less grease than all others I have opened so far too! Just know that I will be adding a substantial amount to these bearings (PGN) before I use them!
We recently changed to the PGN bearing for our price point PTO offering. At this time about 75 are out in service with no complaints or early failures, the quality seems to be good with respect to the price. Currently we are at $3.47 each on these.

https://www.casegardentractorparts.com/15ptoclbe.html

Bob

Bob the price point you are offering these bearings at is exceptional! From my prospective they are a very good buy. Had I seen these before I bought from Amazon I would have bought yours.. Because of past experiences with sealed bearings I now open every bearing I use. Still not sure of the value of doing that but that's where I am right now. My mindset is "more grease" longer lasting and as it takes only a moment to check and add more a worthwhile step for me. For me the PGN bearing certainly meets my needs and yes I would buy more as I need them!

Ray

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2024 2:13 pm**

so almost assembled my new PTO that I bought from #myerslawnandgarden . It's been an easy install - why - because ALL the parts were designed to work together! Not having to worry about what can work with what took all the stress out of the work. Yes there have been multiple updates over the years that frankly were not well documented. I am working a paper right now as I work through this and will publish for us here. So I had a shoutout about Bob taking the time to mark some of the parts , i.e. the fan front, but especially the cams. Marking the top and the front/rear cams made life so easy! Because of this action I went back through all my cam stock, old and new style and "stamped" "RT" (rear top) and "FT" (front top) on all appropriate cams using a cheap HF stamp. problem solved for me from now on!

Ray

Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

EZ clutches

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