Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 6:28 am Built my own version of your linkage setup when I put foot controls on Frankie . Works great . For those that do not have the ability to make there own this is a great solution for them . Keep up the good work on all the forums you are in . It is appreciated by many .

Dave

So Dave, you let the cat out of the bag here.. What foot controls? you are under an obligation my friend to share your work here! Just kidding (yeah Brits tend to do that!) want to tell us what you did and how it worked out for you?

Seen a number of foot control conversions Dave, but more than interested in what our members have found useful. I have sometimes done things to my equipment, ok more than once, that I thought was a good idea, over the years but somehow never got to where I thought it might. Do foot controls actually work? If so, what really worked for you and why should we be looking at this as the next major, or otherwise, break though in our hobby?

Please share...

@ras101 Ray I needed foot controls on Frankie because I am not an Octopus and there are 5 hydra controls and many switches plus a steering wheel . I did document it some where . It was either here or the old sight . Not sure , I will see if I can find it . It is an add on that allows me to still use the hand control if I want . So best of both worlds .
here is some pics. of it .https://ccigt.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t= ... s&start=20

As good as the 200 and 400 series tractors I think are, I also think that the hand drive control was a really poor idea. That's just me. When I find some time I definitely want to change all my non-600 series tractors to foot drive. No idea how yet, but most likely I'll do what Dave did.

Eugen wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:22 pm As good as the 200 and 400 series tractors I think are, I also think that the hand drive control was a really poor idea. That's just me. When I find some time I definitely want to change all my non-600 series tractors to foot drive. No idea how yet, but most likely I'll do what Dave did.

The hand controls with the detents at different speed are fine for cutting grass , but if used as the mini tractor they are it is a pain as we just don't have enough hands . IMO.

Dave, I think this is an area with should put our heads together my friend! Foot control appeals!

ras101 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:42 pm Dave, I think this is an area with should put our heads together my friend! Foot control appeals!

I will help with what I can . I just don't remember well what I did . Kinda made it on the fly .

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:56 pm

ras101 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:42 pm Dave, I think this is an area with should put our heads together my friend! Foot control appeals!

I will help with what I can . I just don't remember well what I did . Kinda made it on the fly .

I think that is what we all do too. Seen a few write ups now on foot control going back almost 10 years and if I remember Grummy was involved years ago too. As you know though most modern tractors have foot control. Not sure that would be my first or only choice (I like the hand controls too) I just thought we should explore it too..

Maybe we should break foot control into a new thread? @Eugen I think it's a worthwhile discussion that deserves it's own thread.

Timj wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:01 pm Maybe we should break foot control into a new thread? @Eugen I think it's a worthwhile discussion that deserves it's own thread.

Great idea Tim, I will do that tonight when I get off babysitting duty.

I looked up Gummy's foot control on the other site. @ras101 has a nice pdf that Grummy did on his build several years ago. Grummy is still alive and kicking. I had him confused with Gator who passed several years ago.

Grummy's last seen active on the other site 2-28-23. We need him over here with some insight.

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@Jancoe I edited my post. Thanks for the tip. The information I posted was wrong and the name was misspelled. I mixed Grummy up with Gator from the other site. Gator passed in 2020.

Yes Gator did pass away. I always had a hard time understanding his posts. I went to the forum site after reading Jancoe’s post. I sent a PM to Grummy inquiring about some if his past projects. If I get a response from him I will reach out and tell him about this site. Maybe he will check us out and join. Harry

OK, so lets start really sharing here. I have been, and will continue to be, an avid fan of Grummy since before 2011. His work is just exceptional and in my eyes something to strive for. So being a fan I found a way to download a lot of files from Grummy's now defunct website for my own files. So I went looking this past few days when this subject came up on our forum found nothing of substance online, not even in the "other" forums and then went to my own files. I found a lot of files, some that Eugen will post later but for now I will share Grummy's foot control in all it's glory.. Enjoy a work of art guys..

I heard back from Grummy on the forum. He filled me in on what he has been up to. I invited him to check out ccigt.com and mentioned to him how friendly the members are. So possibly he will do so and join. Harry

Harry, I did the same thing with Grummy and he said he would visit too.

Foot control is so much nicer. But I have no input on how to do it. I have three foot controlled tractors and five hand lever controlled tractors. You get use to the lever controlled ones. But foot controlled ones are better.


Noel

maybe it's just me having been on my Ingy for thirty years but for most of what I do i like the hand control. As I have not yet grown a third arm there is times when it would be handy to have a free hand when trying to operate three things at once.
Our NH compact tractor has foot control and it is really handy when running the loader or three point. I don't care much for it for mowing or driving distances. ( Side rant, it is two petals on a bar that pivots in the center. You rock it back and forth to go forward and reverse. Numerous times my boot sole has gotten caught on it, picked up to stop and lurched forward. Also it's mounted on the same side as the brakes, making using the brakes impossible. End rant )

Each has its things with operating. Some tractors with foot control have a cruise control thing. Which I never use. I’m use to pushing on a gas pedal for 50 years so pushing on a hydro pedal not much different.
Very strange why tractors with hydro foot control pedals have the brakes on the same side. My 1980 LGT 165 Ford garden tractor is like that.


Noel

I have planned for years to install foot control following Grummy's directions, first for my 442, and later for my 4020.

I have some concern that I may struggle to join the bellcrank to control rod running to the TCV, because I've upgraded my control rods to a custom design, which has no smooth 1/4" rod segments. I could probably remove the existing control rod and attach a horizontal rod protruding from it, as Grummy says you need. And I ultimately probably will.

However, I really like David Barkey's solution as well: Like Grummy, David installed a foot/toe lever attached to a horizontal shaft that runs through the tower. But from there he welded a bellcrank vertically up from that shaft. And then he welded a horizontal bellcrank onto the vertical shaft of the travel control lever. From there he joined those two bell cranks using a piece of allthread tipped with swivel-bearing rod ends.
If you have space in the tower for its slightly greater overall bulk, it seems like it would be easier to install, and easier to adjust it.

Since I have both the 4000 series and a big PS valve, I don't know if I have room to go that way or not. But If I do, then that's the route I'll go:

Grummy's spring-loaded toe lever, push down to go forward, lift up for reverse.
And David Barkey's method to join from the foot lever shaft to the travel control lever shaft.

Bob

Nobody tried something like the 600 series? Maybe there's no room..

@SylvesterCalzone aka Mike in Toronto, and a small engine rebuilder, has a 6xxbh that has a Grummy foot control. Mike bought the tractor in the Chicago area. I should take time to find my pictures of it tomorrow.

I don't want to be a whiner, but I can't pull myself off the soffa with any CGITGT. Started out as a head banging cold Wednesday. I gave up digging in last night. Today it has been accompanied by fever.

I really like the foot controls on my 2 6018's. I also don't mind the hand levers on my other tractors. Would I rather have foot controls? Yes. I've been wanting a 4200 series for a while. None have come up around me. That's said I have my 4016ps project sidelined again due to other jobs, but I've been thinking about it with that since it's getting alot of work done to it. I figured I call up a dealer and get my hands on a parts diagram so I can buy some necessary parts and fabricate the rest. I do like David's job he did, having the option to use hand levers or foot controls. I'd rather not go heel/toe if I can figure the pedal system out. My concern is the different shoes I wear depending on work and weather. Making sure it fits and is comfortable.

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I've been playing with some cad models for how a banana plate works, and it's a nifty idea. I find the idea that the lever only sets direction, and the foot pedal determines the "amount" to be interesting.

But it looks to me like forward and reverse have different lever arm lengths, and therefore different pedal travel. For those of you with a 644 or whatever, does the foot pedal travel a bit farther when you're going forward vs in reverse? Or vices versa? (I might have my directions mentally backward) Then I've played for a while to how to balance that out. And by shifting the arc to the left on the banana plate, you can transfer the "imbalance" over to the amount that the fwd/reverse lever itself has to move. You can make it where the foot pedal has about the same amount of travel in either forward or reverse, but the lever itself has to be pushed either "way" forward or only "a little bit backward".
Finally, it occurs to me that you could discard the mechanical fwd/reverse lever in exchange for a 6-port selector valve placed between the TCV and the travel motor, and having the foot pedal only "push" the travel spool in. So the fluid always leaves the TCV from the same port, flowing the same direction, but the position of the selector valve determines which port on the travel motor is hooked to "feed" and which is hooked to "suction". If it's a manual selector valve, then you have to create some kind of lever/linkage for the operator to be able to set it. But if you went with an electrical selector valve, then you can just put a switch on the dashboard, flip up for forward, back for reverse. And hit the pedal when you want to go.

But I don't see how you could have neutral, unless you added ANOTHER electric selector valve inline there, this one dumping to tank. So your three way dash switch could have a neutral position, and in that position the "dump to tank" selector is activated, and pushing the pedal does nothing.

Probably useless musings, but it's fun to think about.

Bob

Due to the compactness of these tractors , managing foot size withing foot rest especially with a cab or loader frame in front of your feet is always a concern . I prefer the two peddle approach myself . Having the brake on the other side is far better than the hydros out there with all on one side . I know they do it that way because people are taught to drive with one foot except with manual clutch .

another useless musing: You could install a clutch pedal.

If the bottom end of the vertical travel control lever isn't captured and fixed into position, then it can't exert any push/pull on the TCV spool linkage rod. You can twist the lever all you want, but its free-floating end will just wobble back and forth, no effect on the TCV.

You could put a bearing on the lower end of the travel lever and then install a sliding clutch plate, as in the picture. In one position it allows the lower end of the travel control lever to just wobble freely, aka "neutral".

Slid over to the other position, it captures and fixes in place the lower end of the travel control lever, making the travel lever now effectual against the TCV spool linkage, aka "go"
Then you install some sort of horizontal bellcrank linkage between the travel of the clutch pedal and the sliding of the clutch plate.

This is all conceptual, of course. So I'm sure that with the clutch plate slid to the right that the travel lever wouldn't make things move. I predict that the behavior would be that if you push the travel lever forward and then let the clutch out, that the lever will stay in position, and the clutch release will force the TCV linkage itself to move. Certainly if you hold the travel lever forward, that's the result you'd get. You just may or may not have to add/adjust the rotational friction of the travel lever to prevent the movement of the clutch plate from rotating the travel lever back out of position.

If you've alway wanted a clutch pedal, here's your chance.

Bob

I just realized that the above approach, if you reverse the pedal direction, will duplicate the function of the 64x series, effectively replacing the banana plate.

With the pedal retracted and the"clutch plate" slid to the right, push the travel lever forward and it does nothing. But when you depress the pedal and force the "clutch plate"to slide leftward, the clutch plate will capture the free end of the travel lever and cause the TCV spool linkage to move.

I'm not sure it's as good as or better than the banana plate method, but I think it's more compact, so could be applied to almost any if not any machine.

Bob

I've found a problem: there's nothing in this design to return the spool to center when you let off the pedal. Probably a real pain to put in a spring loaded return to center. So probably not a viable approach to replace the banana plate.

Bob

@thebuildist, you have interesting ideas. I'm not sure I understand completely though.

As for the 644 pedal and banana plate, I'm not sure about your question. You can set the lever either all the way to one side, or all the way the other side. The pin goes all the way to the end on the banana plate, where there is a tiny notch so it doesn't move away from the end easily. The pedal has only one direction, you press on it and it can go all the way to the floor, but some of that range does not change the speed, only the beginning of pressing on it. It is spring loaded and it returns all the way up when you let go. I can see how people would prefer a lever instead of this pedal when mowing for extended periods of time, as you set the lever in one position and leave it there, instead of pressing on the pedal continuously. Which is why Dave's design is nice, you get either foot or lever, depending on what task you do.

Ok, I understand. I wish I could see a factory loader in person and get a feel for it

It's been a little while now that I've seen a banana plate and I couldn't intuitively understand how it actually functions.

So last night I set out to draw a CAD representation of it in it's forward, neutral, and reverse settings, both when the pedal is retracted and the banana plate is at rest, and when the pedal is "floored" and the banana plate is fully engaged. By doing so I hoped to see how the travel spool linkage hole gets shifted/displaced in that process, and that it would reveal to me how the thing actually works.

So I looked at the illustrated parts breakdown that shows the banana plate and from there drew an approximate scale representation of it, and was able to note which holes and slots are connected to what.

And I did figure it out. But along the way I can see that when the travel lever is in the forward setting, the spool linkage gets displaced less than it is when the travel lever is in the reverse setting. What I'm perceiving from your reply is that in either setting it doesn't need much pedal travel to reach "full engagement." A short movement of the pedal is plenty for either direction, so any pedal movement after that is superfluous, and any forward/reverse difference can't be perceived.

So after all this, I guess I can satisfy myself that I've thoroughly thought it through, and if there are any big elegant design breakthroughs to be made, they're not going to be made by me :-)

Which loops us all the way back around to the beginning: Grummy's foot lever style, hopefully coupled with David Barkey's linkage style.

The only modification/improvement that I think I will do to my machine is that I will install a permanent hub where the fulcrum of the foot pedal is, and the pedal itself will be detachable, merely held on with a thumb screw. The pedal will be registered / locked in position by a couple of pins. So you can remove the thumb screw and just pull the foot pedal off, but more or less instantly slide it back on over the pins, and just put the thumb screw back in. The hub itself will always be there rotating in lockstep with the travel lever. But you can choose whether or not to have the pedal attached. And if you drilled a couple extra sets of holes, it would be easy to have the angle of the foot pedal adjustable to your preference as well.

While I'm at it, I'll probably make two or three different pedal styles in order to experiment with which one I like best. I'll make a heel/toe rocker style, and of course the toe-only style like Grummy's. And if I want to try the same kind of dual pedal setup as David has, it would be easily adapted to this hub system.

Bob