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Re: My new 644 arrived
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:44 pm
by Eugen
@Gordy, I've been thinking to partially copy the big 680 backhoe shape.
@DavidBarkey this is not the time for me to complicate things, I want to get this 644 functional asap, so I'll go the easiest route for now, with a hose. It would be nice to know though, where to buy hydraulic steel tubing, if I wanted to do more stuff. I'll ask around.
Re: My new 644 arrived
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:34 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: ↑Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:44 pm
@Gordy, I've been thinking to partially copy the big 680 backhoe shape.
@DavidBarkey this is not the time for me to complicate things, I want to get this 644 functional asap, so I'll go the easiest route for now, with a hose. It would be nice to know though, where to buy hydraulic steel tubing, if I wanted to do more stuff. I'll ask around.
Don't know ,I have not got into steel line in a long time . I would imagine you could buy it through any of the Hydraulic shops like Sunnyside in Midland or Western in Barrie . But for one small piece it may cost you more for a length of tubing than to have it made .
Re: My new 644 arrived
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:20 pm
by sdunt
I suggest you take a look at my Power steering install thread,
https://casecoltingersoll.com/showthrea ... ed-to-646a which talks about using rubber hose for the pump output and what fitting you need to go from the SAE 10 to hose bib for the suction line input.
pictures in the photo album:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1fbGxQfyTfoFVLku8
Eugen wrote: ↑Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:47 pm
ld be the best way to connect to new pump to the system. This is what the original looked like, but what I want is to have flexible hydraulic hoses so that the engine could be moved around for best fit on the frame, and not be constrained by the rigid steel hydraulic connections.
What I'm slightly unsure about, are two things.
1. The pump inlet feed connection. The original pump has the steel pipe with the little bump on its end so that the 3/4 hose can be clamped securely to it. The new pump only has the ORBF size 12 port, and without thinking too much about it, got the ORBFM to NPTM straight adapter, then an NPTF-NPTM 90 degree elbow. Might just be ok clamping a 3/4 hose on it, but would be happier if there was something better to clamp on here. Can go with this hose all the way to the hydraulic oil tank, I think there would be enough clearance on the side there. Once I put the engine on the frame for mock up I can see that better.
2. The original pump outlet went directly into that steel pipe which goes to the TCV. As I said, I want this pipe replaced with a flexible hose. The little fly in the soup here is that the original steel pipe has a few bends so that it clears nicely the various items in that small place, including the steering cog. A hose in straight line from TCV to pump would not be nice. A compromise would be to pay attention to parts in that area that are moving, and/or are hot (exhaust?) and tie the hose to keep it away from those. Ideally I had a shorter steel pipe connected to some length of hose to have enough flexibility for engine repositioning.
644hoses.png
Re: My new 644 arrived
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:39 pm
by Eugen
Thank you Scott! That is extremely helpful!
Re: My new 644 arrived
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:44 am
by FUTZ
I can get these fittings, fairly reasonable.
Re: My new 644 arrived
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:57 pm
by thebuildist
Eugen wrote: ↑Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:47 pm
What I'm slightly unsure about, are two things.
1. The pump inlet feed connection. The original pump has the steel pipe with the little bump on its end so that the 3/4 hose can be clamped securely to it. The new pump only has the ORBF size 12 port, and without thinking too much about it, got the ORBFM to NPTM straight adapter, then an NPTF-NPTM 90 degree elbow. Might just be ok clamping a 3/4 hose on it, but would be happier if there was something better to clamp on here. Can go with this hose all the way to the hydraulic oil tank, I think there would be enough clearance on the side there. Once I put the engine on the frame for mock up I can see that better.
Bear in mind that for this suction line you're guarding against a little different set of problems.
You don't need a bump on your steel tube. That bump acts as a barb to prevent the hose/clamp from blowing off. We're sucking, not blowing. It might suck up too far onto the tube, but it'll never blow off. So a collar or ring to stop the hose from sliding too far onto the fitting wouldn't hurt. But a bump behind the clamp is superfluous.
You don't need a "high pressure" hose, as it has literally negative internal pressure.
You DO need a highly rigid/non-collapsible hose, because with the negative internal pressure, the the outside atmospheric air pressure is trying to squish it. If it does collapse, you'll starve your pump of oil and likely damage it. It may be that you choose a "high pressure" hose because its high pressure construction also happens to give it "high rigidity". But evaluate your options accordingly, and be sure you're getting a "rigid" hose regardless of its pressure rating.
For the same reason, flow restrictions and anything that could cause fluid turbulence are especially to be avoided on the suction line. Even more than pressure lines, you want as large and smooth of a fluid path as possible. It doesn't need to be any larger than the actual tank outlet or the pump inlet. But it shouldn't ever be any smaller, and you don't wan't excess transitions with hard edges, hard turns, inner grooves, etc. You're after big and smooth with gradual/flowy bends. So choose your fittings accordingly.
For what it's worth.
Bob
Re: My new 644 arrived
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:07 am
by Eugen
@FUTZ I'll reach out to you offline about this.
@thebuildist thank you for all the recommendations, it all makes sense to me.
I'm curious @sdunt why you chose the 1" fitting. Isn't the tube on the cooler 3/4" diameter?
I just realized yesterday this engine that I'm thinking of using doesn't have a fan on the flywheel side. Will have to find a way to put a fan for the hydraulic oil cooler.
Re: My new 644 arrived
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 12:24 pm
by sdunt
I used a 4603-16-12 -> 1" Hose Barb x #12 SAE/ORB Male 45° fitting
https://www.discounthydraulichose.com/4603-16-12.html for the pumps suction inlet on my 646 because that was what was on the tractor originally. The steel line that runs around the side of the engine is a 1" line . (on a 1973 - 646 SER# 9680512)
I will second the advice to use Suction line for the connections between the tank and the pump inlet.. It can be a major PIA to install.
https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulic ... 9-1279.axd
In my case I only needed short 6 - 8 " long pieces so I put the hose in a pan of water and brought the water to boiling then installed the suction line over the hose barb - bulges. Used my welding gloves while holding 212 degree hose......
P.s. Yes the tube - hose to the COOLER is 3/4 which is the return to the tank. The suction side is 1".
Re: My new 644 arrived
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:44 pm
by DavidBarkey
sdunt wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 12:24 pm
I used a 4603-16-12 -> 1" Hose Barb x #12 SAE/ORB Male 45° fitting
https://www.discounthydraulichose.com/4603-16-12.html for the pumps suction inlet on my 646 because that was what was on the tractor originally. The steel line that runs around the side of the engine is a 1" line . (on a 1973 - 646 SER# 9680512)
I will second the advice to use Suction line for the connections between the tank and the pump inlet.. It can be a major PIA to install.
https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulic ... 9-1279.axd
In my case I only needed short 6 - 8 " long pieces so I put the hose in a pan of water and brought the water to boiling then installed the suction line over the hose barb - bulges. Used my welding gloves while holding 212 degree hose......
P.s. Yes the tube - hose to the COOLER is 3/4 which is the return to the tank. The suction side is 1".
To add to that . The cooler is on the return side which is being pushed through as opposed to the suction side which has to be pulled through . It is easier for the pump to push that to pull , so thus the difference in size .
Re: My new 644 arrived
Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:36 am
by Eugen
I've been really busy the last few days, thinking I'm going to write something here at night but was too exhausted.
Good points you guys made. It's clear what I need.