Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

Posted: **Fri Oct 06, 2023 7:04 am**

I needed to spray my roof/porch with anti-moss/algae treatment yesterday... Thought it would be a good use of the 444 since that's running now. Hooked up the sprayer, and headed over to the house to fill up. Half way over there, the tractor fell on its face, and I almost went over the wheel. Engine bogged down enough to die from almost wide open. Sat there a minute, and it started up fine. Ran ok at mid throttle, then high. Tried to move again, and then it bogged down again. So there's something wrong for sure... Started, and at mid throttle, and low speed it ran fine back over to the barn to put away.

Part of me feels like it's a collapsing suction line. It's been so long since I worked on the machine I don't recall if I ever replaced that. If I did, I believe I would have used the correct line, but it's also possible I never did it. That will be the first thing I check.

Guess it could be something real unhappy in the travel circuit too. I can't really think of anything else in the travel circuit that could go intermittent. If that was the case, I would think the pressure relief would just kick in, so you might stop, but it wouldn't stall the engine.

Thoughts with that little bit of information?

Of course this comes up A) when I'm soon to need it for leaf pickup, B) just spent money on a new Blower C)picked up a Hydra Bagger at the same time for a good price as backup for my 52 year old EZ Rake blower...

Posted: **Sat Oct 07, 2023 6:55 pm**

That’s aggravating for sure. As I was reading this I was trying to picture this happening. A couple of things came to mind. Could it have been a blockage of some sort that cleared since you were able to drive it back to the shed?

Could it be something other than the hydraulic system?
I was wondering about fuel delivery. That would have similar symptoms. What made me think of that is you can run at low and mid throttle but not at full throttle. If you have a restricted fuel flow it may run ok at low or mid throttle but can’t keep up with the demand to keep the carburetor bowl full at full throttle.

Maybe something else to look at. Let us know what you find.

Posted: **Sat Oct 07, 2023 8:57 pm**

I can't rule anything out, but it sure didn't feel like a fuel issue. This was like deadheading to pump.

I did look at the lines yesterday. Apparently, I've never changed them. So, while dumping the system isn't on the list of things I want to do, I guess I need to order some hoses, and oil, and deal with it. Obviously, I can't guarantee the low pressure lines are the issue, but they're overdue anyway, and I guess that make them a good place to start. Really wish it had done this before the weather turned...

Posted: **Sat Oct 07, 2023 10:46 pm**

Sounds like you have a good place to start. Don’t feel along about the weather turning before you’re ready. I just looked at my schedule and October is about full for me and I still have a long list of to do’s that I know won’t be done before winter.

Posted: **Sun Oct 08, 2023 6:34 am**

What gear were you in , High gear with cold fluid will stop dead in it's tracks if the engine dies . I would first look at the fuel pick up in the tank and make sure the screen is still there ( crap /bugs will get caught in the elbow if screen is not there and you won't see it ), the fuel cap vent Bugs build nests in little holes), water in the fuel bowl , ect.

Posted: **Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:47 am**

I was in high gear, which certainly magnifies everything. Fluid wasn't really COLD, it was probably 65-70 degrees, and had been running/idling for a little while, obviously not really hot operating temp yet, but not winter time molasses either. The weather turned Friday afternoon with a big front. It's fall for sure here now.

I'll have to check the fuel screen in the tank. Honestly I didn't even know it had one. This tractor has an electric fuel pump, and a filter. The filter is clean. Nothing gets to the carb except fuel, and possibly water. 'Course it could be corrosion in the carb bowl, but that seems like it would have happened too quickly from the last cleaning. I suppose it could be a blocked line from the tank to the pump. That's easy enough to check. Probably suck it up and order the replacement carb at the same time. Can't say I'll get to this before leaf pickup sadly. I guess that's why one must have multiple machine options...

Posted: **Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:19 am**

I didn't get a chance to read everything, but did you read the spark plug? Was it running lean at the very end?

Regarding the carb, a simple sanity check is to take the bottom bowl off and clean that, try again.

Also, did you notice if perhaps the head of the engine seemed really hot?

Posted: **Mon Oct 09, 2023 6:43 pm**

Eugen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:19 am I didn't get a chance to read everything, but did you read the spark plug? Was it running lean at the very end?

Regarding the carb, a simple sanity check is to take the bottom bowl off and clean that, try again.

Also, did you notice if perhaps the head of the engine seemed really hot?

Didn't check the plug. If I manage to get it to repeat the issue, I will be sure to pull it, and see what I can see.

I will check the bowl, that's an easy one. Reality is though I will likely just replace the whole carb since it's REALLY chewed up internally with corrosion. I told myself to just order one, but naturally haven't done so yet.

I didn't note any heat beyond what I might normally. It would have been tough to tell though, it was pretty breezy in an open field where the issues occurred.

I'm currently looking at the replacement hoses as well. While it looks like a real delightful job to replace that pump suction line, it's original to my ownership of the machine, and it wasn't new by any stretch then... The other soft lines will get done too. Should probably take a look at whatever fitting I need to put in a case drain while I have that line off.

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2023 6:50 am**

Sadly, the 444 has not been satisfied by the first allotment of time and money that I have put in to it...

I did replace the 3 soft lines. They were original to the machine, so that was good to do regardless. I also put a new carb on there.

The machine will run at WOT perfectly happily now, as long as it's just sitting there. It will move around at low to mid speed pretty reliably. High speed will cause the stall. Not instantly, but randomly.

That still has me thinking hydraulic circuit, rather than fuel, or engine. I suppose that could just be a red herring, with the issue caused by the movement/sloshing of the machine at higher speed. Didn't see any issue in the fuel tank. Hate the idea of having to pull it all apart to get to it, but probably should. Didn't find anything particularly bad in the electrical, but there too, I should go through it. After the mice wrecked it a few years ago, there are too many crimp connections going on. I should just replace it all. (and we're back to needing that heated winter space again)

I still didn't look at the plug when it happens. What am I looking for? I also still haven't noted an excessive amount of heat, but again open breezy field conditions... What kind of temp should the head be? I have an IR thermometer I can check it with. I suppose I could run the JD 140 for a while and get a reference temp there since it's also a K321.

I really hate intermittent issues. It something is going to break, I really would prefer it just break, and stay that way, so I can get on with the fix rather than just chasing my tail...

The only up side is I finished leaf pickup yesterday. I can kick this issue down the road if needed by using the JD 140 for the winter snowblowing. (or no blower since we never had one out here before, and stick with the bigger tractors)

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:27 am**

Just a shot in the dark, but did you check the condenser?

Harry

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:24 am**

The machine will run at WOT perfectly happily now, as long as it's just sitting there. It will move around at low to mid speed pretty reliably. High speed will cause the stall. Not instantly, but randomly./quote]

Things to look at .
Spark plug / colour and wet or dry , condenser , coil /is there spark , ignition switch / does coil have power , wiring / same as coil, voltage regulator / voltage and how much AC volts are there . when dies.

these are great for diag. can run tractor with it on until dies and immediately know if it is spark related .

Spark plugs, coils , condensers , and ignition switches can all go open when hot/underload then come back when cool some . When in dought replace each one , one at a time with know good unit . New doe Not necessarily mean it is "good" .

Happy hunting .

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:48 am**

I’m try to think of quick ways to test this since it’s intermittent. I agree with you @Toolslinger , I’d much rather something to just break.

Mr Daves in-line spark tester is a great idea. You can watch spark in real time. I need to get one for my tool box. No blinking light=no spark.

Maybe you can carry a can of carburetor cleaner with you. When this happens squirt the around the carburetor. If engine rpm picks up then it may be fuel delivery or a vacuum leak. You may want to do this with the air cleaner off.

I’m trying to think of a good way to test the hydraulics. When it happens will the engine stay running if you put the tractor in neutral? Or when it happens is it possible for you to see flow in the tank?

Would it be possible to run the engine under load with the PTO and not move the tractor? That would isolate the engine from the hydraulic system and maybe narrow things down.

I’m just thinking out loud hoping to help get the problem isolated.
Let us know what you find!

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2023 4:30 pm**

Just another bit of info that I see I didn't post...
When it starts to die, if I stop movement, that doesn't seem to save it. However, if I stop movement, and drop it down to idle, it will continue to run.

Spark tool is an excellent suggestion. I have one, so that will happen tomorrow I think. I need to pull the hood off to use it, but that's fine.

Condenser. Haven't checked that. Had to look up how honestly, but that's about as simple as it gets to do. Will hit that tomorrow as well.

Coil... Well I did just do it, but as noted, that doesn't make it good. Will throw a meter on that as well. I really don't want to replace that again, but if I do, at least I can find one that isn't bright yellow this time...

I was thinking about running something on the PTO. I've got a tiller, a post hole digger, and a hydrovac. The vac is new to me, so not knowing it, that's not what I'd test with... The other two I haven't run in years, but there's no reason they shouldn't perform as advertised. I guess the tiller would be the easiest to put under load, plus it's way easier to hook up than the auger.

Planning to put a meter on some things, and jiggle wires to see if I get any movement in the needle. Never been a big analog meter fan, but for this, it is likely a better choice.

Is there a spec on fuel flow rate? I can always pull the line in to the carb and time filling a measuring cup. I suppose I could try to find the spec on the pump as well. I know it can move enough fuel to keep up with the Kohler unless it's gone bad, I have the same pump on both my 646's with no issues, and they're a little more thirsty.

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2023 6:12 pm**

FYI . internally resisted coil will be between 3 and 4 ohms .
externally resisted will be between 0.5 and 1.5 ohms .
A externally resisted coil without a resister will not only cause the points to fail premature but also can cause the condenser to over heat and act up.
Check the values to make sure you have the proper one for the application . I have gotten the wrong one before because it was boxed wrong . They do look the same on the outside .

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:12 pm**

The thing that jumps out to me after reading this thread is that "if I drop down to idle after it begins to die, it will continue to run". If no spark, that would not occur. Sounds like a fuel starvation issue to me, but cannot rule out a hydraulic problem although they are much rarer. If it begins to die, have you tried to quickly close the choke to confirm that it's a fuel issue?

Bob

Posted: **Sun Nov 19, 2023 6:28 am**

myerslawnandgarden wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:12 pm If it begins to die, have you tried to quickly close the choke to confirm that it's a fuel issue?

I have not tried that. Certainly can't hurt to try.

Having just put on a new carb, and the problem being the same, I really don't suspect an issue there. What are the odds a 40 year old carb, and a brand new one show up with an identical issue? That said, it could sure be fuel delivery before the carb.

Posted: **Sun Nov 19, 2023 6:42 am**

Toolslinger wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 6:28 am
myerslawnandgarden wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:12 pm If it begins to die, have you tried to quickly close the choke to confirm that it's a fuel issue?
I have not tried that. Certainly can't hurt to try.

Having just put on a new carb, and the problem being the same, I really don't suspect an issue there. What are the odds a 40 year old carb, and a brand new one show up with an identical issue? That said, it could sure be fuel delivery before the carb.

It still could be fuel starvation problem from two different carbs , but for two different reasons . Also , enriching the mix a bit will help a week spark jump the gap . So still could be be ignition related if a little choke helps . I would still have the tattle tail spark tester on when you do it and watch how the light reacts when the choke is applied when it is dyeing .

First thing to do is to run it and let it dye watching the light and check the spark plug . Is it wet / dry/ tan / black . That will tell a lot on which way to start looking .

Posted: **Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:45 am**

@Toolslinger , you got a lot of good suggestions, so I'm not sure anything I say would be helpful. It's a puzzling issue you're facing, and yes, intermittent issues are the worst. That being said, here's the way I see it. Something you said: that when at or near full throttle it doesn't die unless you try moving, makes me think that it's not hydraulic, or spark related, but fuel starvation. What happens when you try to move is that the load on the engine increases, and the governor should pull on the carb tab and more air/gas get in the cylinder.

To bypass the tank you could put a fuel line in a clean jug with gas that you tape to the top, or something like that. Make sure the carb main jet is 3-4 turns out from the bottom.

You'll figure it out I'm sure, however annoying it is, it's good that it's not something catastrophic like rod through the engine.

Posted: **Tue Nov 28, 2023 4:45 pm**

Ok gents, I put alittle time in over the weekend...

I looked in the tank, which I had done previously, but this time, I saw some crud in the outlet. There's no screen on the tank outlet, so anything that gets near it, is going out... I was also surprised that I don't in fact have a filter on the line. I was sure I did, but apparently not.

At any rate, that meant I got to rip everything apart and clean the tank out. After that, I checked fuel flow from the tank out the line at the carb inlet, and I have plenty of fuel comeing down the line.
Since there was crud involved, I pulled the carb, and gave it a quick clean. I went back to initial carb settings. I was a bit lean in comparisson to the initial point, but not crazy, so I didn't think it was just that.

Started, and ran it for a while. Had to work on the carb a bit to get it to idle happily, and then run up to full.

Ran it outside, and found I basically had the same issues. I did remember to try throwing in the choke when it was dieing to try that. Didn't help.

So I threw the spark checker on it. Seemed ok. Ran it WOT for a bit, and it would miss now and again. Checked the spark, and yea, it was definatly missing spark at those times.

So, I think I'm now looking at ignition. I did not run it around to cause the stall as I was about out of light, and I was cold to boot. I'll do that next chance I have with the spark checker in place. I have preemptivly ordered a coil, condensor, and points. If I don't find a smoking gun in the coil, or cap, I'll do the points, and check the push rod. Doesn't hurt to have them on hand anyway, most of my equipment would take the coil, and cap if needed, and there's two other Kohler's that could take the points. Napa coil, and Kohler points, and condensor.

Posted: **Tue Nov 28, 2023 7:33 pm**

That’s good progress on the troubleshooting! I just saw a video today of a guy that had intermittent trouble in his ignition system. In his case it turned out to be the ignition switch intermittently going to ground due to a loose connection.
It probably wouldn’t be a bad idea to check the wires or just replace them.
Looking forward to what you find.

Posted: **Tue Nov 28, 2023 8:23 pm**

JSinMO wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 7:33 pm That’s good progress on the troubleshooting! I just saw a video today of a guy that had intermittent trouble in his ignition system. In his case it turned out to be the ignition switch intermittently going to ground due to a loose connection.
It probably wouldn’t be a bad idea to check the wires or just replace them.
Looking forward to what you find.

You may wish to just run a jumper wire from the battery + to the coil + to eliminate any electric issue in the tractor wiring system.

Bob

Posted: **Sat Dec 02, 2023 3:59 pm**

I still don't know what the issue is. Or was, other than ignition. It was a beautiful day, and I didn't feel like I wanted to spend all day on it, so I simply replaced everything. Points, Condenser, Coil. All either Kohler, or Echlin from Napa, so no question they should be solid. While I was right there, I cut in a fuel filter that I should have years ago. Cleaned the points push rod, but it was already moving smoothly, so no issue there. It fired right up, and sat happily for a minute, then I pulled it out, put it in high and ran it around, up the hill, full bore, down the hill full speed, back up, back down. Didn't die. I did hear it miss a couple times, but it didn't slow, or bog down.

I'm calling it done.

Got the new snowcaster hooked up. Runs smoothly. I need to check the clearance of the auger, but I believeI'm ready for the winter with it. I'll run it around a few more times, and then the JD140 will get listed for sale, and I'll get a little space back...

Posted: **Sat Dec 02, 2023 4:09 pm**

Toolslinger wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 3:59 pm I still don't know what the issue is. Or was, other than ignition. It was a beautiful day, and I didn't feel like I wanted to spend all day on it, so I simply replaced everything. Points, Condenser, Coil. All either Kohler, or Echlin from Napa, so no question they should be solid. While I was right there, I cut in a fuel filter that I should have years ago. Cleaned the points push rod, but it was already moving smoothly, so no issue there. It fired right up, and sat happily for a minute, then I pulled it out, put it in high and ran it around, up the hill, full bore, down the hill full speed, back up, back down. Didn't die. I did hear it miss a couple times, but it didn't slow, or bog down.

I'm calling it done.

Got the new snowcaster hooked up. Runs smoothly. I need to check the clearance of the auger, but I believeI'm ready for the winter with it. I'll run it around a few more times, and then the JD140 will get listed for sale, and I'll get a little space back...

Sometimes when time and ambition does not support diag. time . A hand full of darts at the board all at once , something is bound to score a win . Glad it is working properly again .

Posted: **Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:10 pm**

I’d say that’s a win!

Glad it up and running.
Could have been any one of those items now you don’t have to worry about it!

Posted: **Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:37 pm**

I thought earlier in the thread, why not just replace those few parts if you already have them? While I can appreciate the idea of doing step at a time troubleshooting, if it's cheap enough I choose to just replace parts. Glad to see you did and the issue is fixed.

Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

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