Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

Still moving dirt that I dug up a couple of months ago. I would back drag to loosen the dirt from the pile, then scoop it up and move to fill in low spots. The Kohler seem to struggle when using the loader. The backhoe never seems to tax the engine at all. The weather seems to be holding and no rain in the forecast this week. Hopefully get to move more through out the week. Harry

That looks like fun @Harry . Second picture is such a classic look, tractor at work.

Interesting about the kohler on loader duty. I too have heard the engine slowing down a little and the governor kicking in when pushing the loader in sometimes. I don't remember very well but I think traction is what I lose first. I'm just not sure a stronger engine would enable me to do things with my 644 that I cannot do with the kohler.

I don't have a ton of experience in this kind of question. But I can compare my old '73 Kohler single cylinder 12 horsepower 442 to my much newer Onan/Linamar twin cylinder 20 horsepower 4020.

And it is surprising how little difference there is between the power of the two machines. The twin 20 horsepower definitely has more steady available power to the belt PTO.

But as far as driving and pulling, it's hard to tell the difference.

I think that's for a couple reasons: number one the Kohler outperforms its class when it comes to bearing down and grunting through. There's just something about them that they just really knuckle down under the load and grunt and stubbornly maintain RPM more than you'd expect. I think maybe because they have an extra large flywheel, and all that rotational inertia helps it?

The other thing is that with the size of the hydraulic pump and motor, you can only realistically transfer 12 or at the very most 14 horsepower from the engine to the wheels, no matter what engine is in there. So again you may have power to spare to run a big PTO implement while driving, but the actual act of driving is not substantially stronger with a larger engine.

Just my $.02.

Bob

@thebuildist it's no secret I like the Kohlers. I do wonder sometimes what it'd be like to put a torquey diesel in my 644.

I think the loaders and backhoes had larger hydraulic pumps and possibly higher relief pressures. Its certainly possible that Harry's 14hp Kohler is in good working order but is simply getting overwhelmed. @sdunt would know better. I recall reading somewhere that the 10hp and 12hp tractors may loose rpms before the hydraulic relief opens.

My reliefs never squeal when under an extreme load. The engine bogs down and it makes what sounds like a clanking noise. If I push it to hard the engine stalls. To adjust the reliefs you have to remove the hoe to get to the hole. I’ve read the procedure in the manual and I’ll just say it’s not easy to even remove the cap on the tcv. I don’t believe my problem is in the relief settings. I think I’m expecting to much from the small GT. I’m sure a bigger GT would get the job done easy, but that is not going to happen! Harry

MattA wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 10:24 am I think the loaders and backhoes had larger hydraulic pumps and possibly higher relief pressures. Its certainly possible that Harry's 14hp Kohler is in good working order but is simply getting overwhelmed. @sdunt would know better. I recall reading somewhere that the 10hp and 12hp tractors may loose rpms before the hydraulic relief opens.

I don't know about the lbh but I do know the 644 loader I got has the same size pump as the 444 and the 244. Although, I'm inclined to think that a bigger pump just had higher volume but will generate the same working pressure.

@Harry , I'll try my 644 harder next time and will report. My memory is the the loader does make the valve squeal at times.

It is true that the loaders have a higher relief setting than the GTs. The GTs are something like 475. While the loaders have something like 1200.

But based on the mechanics of the travel motor, it will expend a full 12 horsepower worth of work before that relief valve ever trips at 475.

Bob

Found this on google

Interesting again @MattA !

Yes, I was confused. I was referring to the attachment relief, and I was in the ballpark as far as that goes.

For the main travel relief, I wasn't even in the same neighborhood as the ballpark! So the 400 series main travel relief is right around 2000, and the 600 series are closer to 2300. That is a difference, not a dramatic one, not nearly as dramatic as 475 vs. 1200.

To be honest, I don't really see the point of the 400 series' relatively lower relief. The piping and components are all the same strength/integrity as the loaders. Why not have it dialled up higher?

But good catch, thanks for shedding light on the situation.

A side issue, but on my 4020, where I machined a full-sized power beyond into the attachment side of the TCV, when I first hooked up that new PB output to a guage, I was shocked. I was routing all the flow coming from the travel motor/circuit into the new PB port, and I expected full flow at travel circuit pressure. (about 9 gpm, about 2000 psi) But because the power beyond port is coming from the attachment circuit, the available pressure is only eqal to the attachment relief, in my case about 475 psi. So I had full flow available, but very low pressure running to my new loader cylinders. That one almost stumped me.

Bob

@thebuildist Did you end up boosting the 4020 attachment relief pressure up from 475 psi?

@thebuildist I'm not sure I actually understand that. The 644 also has a hydraulic cylinder under the tractor, for attachments, right? I took apart that attachment cylinder. I could be wrong but that cylinder doesn't seem to be constructed for a 1000 psi pressure.

Eugen wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:07 am @thebuildist I'm not sure I actually understand that. The 644 also has a hydraulic cylinder under the tractor, for attachments, right? I took apart that attachment cylinder. I could be wrong but that cylinder doesn't seem to be constructed for a 1000 psi pressure.

Does your 644 have a different relief pressure for the mid lift cylinder? I think the mid lift cylinder wasn't added to later loaders (but I could be wrong).

I also thought Bob was talking about the 2000psi vs 2300psi drive pressure relief. At some point the loaders got a heavier differential and somewhere around the year 2000 before my tractor was built, the backhoe transaxle complete with revised gearing and the heavier differential went into the newer tractors.

Eugen wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:07 am @thebuildist I'm not sure I actually understand that. The 644 also has a hydraulic cylinder under the tractor, for attachments, right? I took apart that attachment cylinder. I could be wrong but that cylinder doesn't seem to be constructed for a 1000 psi pressure.

Well, understand that I've never actually seen a 644 in person. So I don't know if it has a mid-lift cylinder or if it does what kind. I can only go by the schematics I've seen of their hydraulic system, and that chart that says that the attachment circuit pressure relief is set for 1,050 PSI. And I can see based on the size of the lift cylinders that they are oversized to get adequate lifting force from relatively low pressure.

I had just assumed that that cylinder will in fact hold up under right around a thousand psi but not more.

Bob

Spike188 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:27 am @thebuildist Did you end up boosting the 4020 attachment relief pressure up from 475 psi?

Yes, I ended up blocking off the attachment relief altogether. Which gave me around 2,000 or 2,300 psi out of the power beyond port. Which is fine for what my loader cylinders need.

Then I had to install new pressure relief for the attachment circuits at a point after the fluid has left the TCV. And this stupid part is that I had to have one relief for the up lines and another separate relief for the down lines.

It was too expensive and too much of a mess to buy two different pressure relief valves and pipe them in. And I couldn't find anybody that sold a relief valve with dual/separated ports, so I built my own! A little bit to my own surprise, it works perfectly.

Bob

Both of my 600 series GT’s had the center lift cylinders. The 644 lbh is a 1974 and with a hoe on the back, the center lift cylinder would have never been used. I’ve seen people mowing their lawns with a loader on their GT, but never with a hoe hanging off the back. I removed the cylinder and kept the circuit for a possible thumb down the road. On the 646 which is a 1977 it also had a center lift cylinder which I removed. The circuit is used for lifting the 3 point on the rear. I’m not sure what the attachment reliefs are set for on the 600’s because I’ve never checked them. I could because I have gauges installed on them to check pressure, but I’ve never heard them squeal. That’s my 600 series ramble for this morning. Harry

Trying to capitalize on the great fall weather. Garden put to bed for winter. Moved many buckets full of clay and rocks and dirt and sod. Not quite where I want it to be but looking good. Also tilled to strips beside garden to be furrowed out tomorrow to make two drainage trenches to the back where its low. Rain coming in on Friday for a few days so trying to get as much done as I can. Harry

'Looks like fun, @Harry ! You're doing it right!

Bob

The 644 is looking good @Harry !
It sure make dirt work easier!

JSinMO wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 8:23 pm The 644 is looking good @Harry !
It sure make dirt work easier!

I could scoop up dirt in the bucket, but the big chunks of dirt and sod had to be lifted by hand into the bucket. Frequent water breaks were required to keep the job moving along. Harry