Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

OEM mulching blades for the RM48 and AHRM48 deck have been no longer available for several years. Since I've had no luck finding a set, I've been doing some research on modifying a set of blades to fit. Basically I'd have to modify the blade hole to fit the RM series adapter. I've also thought about swapping in a set of Case left hand deck spindles. Moving to a different brand spindle may be possible but I'd like to keep it simple for now. Here is what I've come up with for blades so far:

Standard non-mulching blade Ingersoll C31572 (Oregon 91-117) (Stens 310-366)
Size: Length: 17"
Center Hole: 7/8" H, 1-1/4" W
Width: 2.50"
Thickness: 0.187"
Offset: 1/2"
Air Lift: 1"


Oregon 191-108
17” length
.164” thick
2.5” wide
Center hole 11/16”
Offset ¼”
Air lift 1”
https://www.oregonproducts.com/en/blade ... /p/191-108


Stens 302-438 Silver Streak Toothed Blade
Center hole 13/16"
Length 17"
Thickness 0.203"
Width 2 1/2"
https://www.stens.com/302-438-toothed-blade


Stens 330-719 Stens Hi-Lift Blade (similar to Oregon 191-108)
Center hole 11/16"
Length 17"
Outer Hole 3/8"
Thickness 0.164"
Width 2 1/2"
https://www.stens.com/330-719-hi-lift-blade


Oregon 91-586
17” length
.187” thick
2.5” wide
Center hole 11/16”
Offset 3/16”
Air lift 1 3/8”
https://www.oregonproducts.com/en/mower ... 2/p/91-586


Some blade options are thinner than the stock blades. Some are thicker. I still need to pull a blade off my RM48 deck to see if the thinner blades will work ok.


General blade adapter info:
Blade and adapter info:
https://www.reddogsupplies.com/blogs/ne ... wer-blades
https://www.lawnmowerpros.com/diy/index ... ole-types/


8ten stocks lots of spindles, blades, pulleys ect…
https://8tenparts.com/

Anyone have any opinions on standard mulching blades vs gator mulching blades?

I'm thinking of ordering Oregon 191-108 and modifying them to fit.

MattA wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:17 pm Anyone have any opinions on standard mulching blades vs gator mulching blades?

I'm thinking of ordering Oregon 191-108 and modifying them to fit.

I live in a very sandy area . Gator don't seam to stand up as well in sandy areas . Heavier soil areas they seam to do fine . The sand seams to ware the lift fins off quicker than standard .

Dave

I have not tried any of the mulching style blades. I have 3 good sets of old OEM blades I alternate through. I have the same issue of sand cutting the lift fins off. Though it has gotten much better here as the quality of the lawn has greatly improved.
Been curious about the mulching blades as I usually blow the cuttings inward, recutting them and essentially mulching the grass. I attribute a lot of the improvement in the lawn to this. I don't fertilize.
Tim

I measured one of my RM48 blade drive adapters and the blade drive portion is 0.183" to 0.185" tall. The blade is 0.187" thick. Adding the dust cups reduced the drive portion's height to 0.118". The Oregon 191-108 blades I ordered this morning are 0.164" thick and should work just fine.

@MattA we'll be waiting for the full report. or

The Oregon 191-108 blades arrived today. First thing I noticed is the blades are fully sharpened on the leading and trailing edges.The trailing edge might help with the 1.5db noise reduction Oregon claims???

Would be nice if the RM38, RM44 & RM48 decks still used the older Case style spindle shafts. All I would have to do is drill out the center hole and drill the two bolt holes and I'd be done. I'll get to work on marking up the blades and creating the new blade adapter hole soon.

I tried drilling out the blade center hole on a small drill press at work. The blades appear to be hardened steel and I wasn't able to make much progress I'm also not able to hold the blades in a vice very well due to both sides being sharpened

I did come across some cool blade adapters called X-Blades. Basically its a blade adapter that allows you to mount a second blade at 90° to the first blade on the same spindle. Seems to be for commercial use only... I'm not sure my 16HP vanguard engine would do very well running a 48" mowing deck with 6 blades.

MattA wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 10:47 pm I tried drilling out the blade center hole on a small drill press at work. The blades appear to be hardened steel and I wasn't able to make much progress

Matt, I don't know if there's value in having hardened steel in the middle where you want to drill the hole. That is, assuming that you want the hole in the middle. A trick to soften the steel is to get it cherry red with a torch and let it cool down slowly, naturally in the air. Depending on the area you want, this can be done without an oxy-acetylene setup. Map gas or even propane with a turbotorch and enclosing the heating area among some bricks can achieve that. I know because I did it.

I haven't followed this discussion in detail but if the hole needs to be near the tip(s) then you don't want to soften the steel near the cutting edge.

I don't recall where I heard that many current blades are only hardened along the cutting edge.

@MattA increasing the hole size would be fairly staight forward on an EDM.(Electrical Discharge Machining) if you can find one with a large enough bed to hold the blades.

These will easily cut hardened steel to 0.001" tolerance.

I repaired an EDM last week. Just another reason the 646BH isn't finished.

Spike

MattA wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 10:47 pm I tried drilling out the blade center hole on a small drill press at work. The blades appear to be hardened steel and I wasn't able to make much progress I'm also not able to hold the blades in a vice very well due to both sides being sharpened

I did come across some cool blade adapters called X-Blades. Basically its a blade adapter that allows you to mount a second blade at 90° to the first blade on the same spindle. Seems to be for commercial use only... I'm not sure my 16HP vanguard engine would do very well running a 48" mowing deck with 6 blades.

Matt , you will need to lock in a vise and use a carbide end mill . To do this you need a really good drill press or a mill so to keep it from chattering or walking . The steel will be hardened and tempered like spring steel .

Dave

@MattA thought I would throw this over here from some of the discussion on Propane57 s thread on stepped increasing blade speed.

I got off track, kinda, on something I'm working on and was looking for some numbers for comparison. Thought it was interesting.

Have you ever checked the actual rpms of your deck? Sorta a see if the math=the real world.

3600rpm 5" pulley driving 4.25" pulley= 4235rpm

3.1417 x 17 x 4235 ÷12= 18,849fpm blade tip speed.

Assuming you're engine is making 3600rpm.
Assuming I did the math right.

If you smelled/saw smoke it was just my gears turning and belts slipping.

Tim

Tim - Your math is correct. I got about the same number for blade tip speed. I picked up about +15% more blade tip speed by swapping from the RM48 center spindle pulley to the RM38.
I have not checked my decks rpms but I do have a tach for engine rpms. With the hydravac and RM48 deck running the engine speed is typically in the 3400 to 3500rpm range. With deep grass or the hill in ny front yard, I'm down to a slow crawl to keep the rpms up. In these situations I can easily overwhelm the engine and quickly drop the rpms to 3200 or less. Getting the rpms back up requires me to pretty much stop or Crest the small hill.
Without the hydravac running, just my RM48 deck, Rpms at no load can peak 3600+. Deep grass and the hill are much less of a problem. Tractor actually feels like it has some power. I can still overwhelm the engine.
It's probably a good thing Ingersoll dropped the 4016 vanguard. Ingersoll actually made a 4014 Kohler early on.

Bob Mac's RM deck pulley size comparison.

Thanks Matt, I had used alot of Bob's info for this. This gives me a good baseline for comparison on my AHRM. When I get it on I am going to check the RPMs with an optical tach. Going to try to get it on tomorrow, suppose to be warm this week, grass may be ready to mow in a week.
Tim

I've been doing some more research on mulching blades for out tractors. Figured I'd post some of the search results...
Megmo and Cutlass make custom mulching blade solutions. Both solutions cost $250ish-$300ish and have four replaceable pivoting blades.
https://meg-mo.com/
https://cutlassblades.com/

I've also been doing some research on other brand mulching blades and using a custom blade adapter. The green tractor brand uses a 7 point star drive and has 17" and 17 1/16" mulching blades. I'm thinking of having a custom Ingersoll spindle shaft to blade drive adapter made to work with these blades. The blades may have a slightly different offset which could be accounted for in the blade drive adapter length (if needed).

Stens 17" 7 point star standard mulching blades:
https://www.stens.com/330-318-mulching-blade
https://www.stens.com/330-445-hi-lift-blade
Toothed or gator mulching blade
https://www.stens.com/362-440-toothed-blade

Oregon 17" 7 point star standard mulching blades:
https://www.oregonproducts.com/en/mulch ... 2/p/92-105
https://www.oregonproducts.com/en/orego ... /p/192-104
https://www.oregonproducts.com/en/mower ... 2/p/91-586

Oregon 91-586 and Stens 362-440 seem like the best candidates so far based on the same blade length (17") and width (2.5") as the Ingersoll blades.

Standard non-mulching blade Ingersoll C31572 (Oregon 91-117) (Stens 310-366)
Size: Length: 17"
Center Hole: 7/8" H, 1-1/4" W
Width: 2.50"
Thickness: 0.187"
Offset: 1/2"
Air Lift: 1"

Oregon also no longer lists 91-117 on there website. Stens still lists 310-366.

@MattA were you still looking for a mulching kit? I ran across this, no blades.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/it ... tid=dXMIcH

Timj wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:31 pm @MattA were you still looking for a mulching kit? I ran across this, no blades.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/it ... tid=dXMIcH

Thanks Tim. That's a price I'd be willing to pay.

MattA wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 9:19 pm

Timj wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:31 pm @MattA were you still looking for a mulching kit? I ran across this, no blades.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/it ... tid=dXMIcH

Thanks Tim. That's a price I'd be willing to pay.

Does anybody know this seller? Seems to have a lot of Case Ingersoll equipment forsale.

@MattA ran across this, don't know if you have https://www.ebay.com/itm/125908471633?h ... AsVA_XKy9M

Timj wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 11:08 pm @MattA ran across this, don't know if you have https://www.ebay.com/itm/125908471633?h ... AsVA_XKy9M

Thanks Tim. I checked with the seller to see if they had mulching blades in stock. Nope. I was thinking of buying the mulching kit with the blades and a spare set of mulching blades. I'm tempted to make an offer on a pair of kits and resell a set of the deck baffles. The mulching blades have been out of stock for probably 5 years now.

MattA wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 9:30 am

Timj wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 11:08 pm @MattA ran across this, don't know if you have https://www.ebay.com/itm/125908471633?h ... AsVA_XKy9M

Thanks Tim. I checked with the seller to see if they had mulching blades in stock. Nope. I was thinking of buying the mulching kit with the blades and a spare set of mulching blades. I'm tempted to make an offer on a pair of kits and resell a set of the deck baffles. The mulching blades have been out of stock for probably 5 years now.

I checked with my purchasing contact at the Ingersoll parts distributor last week regarding these blades to see if there was a possibility of a small production run since they have a new blade vendor and got a definite NO!

Bob

myerslawnandgarden wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 12:18 pm

MattA wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 9:30 am

Timj wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 11:08 pm @MattA ran across this, don't know if you have https://www.ebay.com/itm/125908471633?h ... AsVA_XKy9M

Thanks Tim. I checked with the seller to see if they had mulching blades in stock. Nope. I was thinking of buying the mulching kit with the blades and a spare set of mulching blades. I'm tempted to make an offer on a pair of kits and resell a set of the deck baffles. The mulching blades have been out of stock for probably 5 years now.

I checked with my purchasing contact at the Ingersoll parts distributor last week regarding these blades to see if there was a possibility of a small production run since they have a new blade vendor and got a definite NO!

Bob

Thanks for checking Bob. I think at this point my idea of adapting the 7 point star John Deere mulching blades makes the most sense. The blades are readily available and about $50 for a set of 3.

I strongly think that what you have proposed doing, modifying hardened mower blades is extremely dangerous. I would beg you to not do it and just drop the whole thought.

If you want a mulching deck, you buy an RM44 and then you can buy new blades.

That 48" deck and kit can be bought and used. But, you will have to use regular blades once the mulching blades are worn out.

I was on the forums back when the late great Tom Arnold was still with us. He even asked me to be a moderator on the site he created after SnotRocket sold the original site. He would have deleted this post and asked you to not re-introduce it. He would certainly have liked the look of this forum, though. Great job on that!

@ssmewing thank you for saying that. We all know that there are different philosophies in running a forum. I hope that members here are grown up and are serious about safety. Everyone has a different appetite for risk and I am more inclined to not remove such posts, instead just warn of the potential danger and let people make their own choices. However, I also respect the views of our community so if the community wants changes, we will implement them.

ssmewing wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:25 am I strongly think that what you have proposed doing, modifying hardened mower blades is extremely dangerous. I would beg you to not do it and just drop the whole thought.

If you want a mulching deck, you buy an RM44 and then you can buy new blades.

That 48" deck and kit can be bought and used. But, you will have to use regular blades once the mulching blades are worn out.

I was on the forums back when the late great Tom Arnold was still with us. He even asked me to be a moderator on the site he created after SnotRocket sold the original site. He would have deleted this post and asked you to not re-introduce it. He would certainly have liked the look of this forum, though. Great job on that!

Understood. Several different discussions took place in this thread. I think having a different blade adapter properly designed is the way to go. Tim also posted a link to MK48-2 mulching kits that showed up on ebay recently.

MattA wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 9:30 am

Timj wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 11:08 pm @MattA ran across this, don't know if you have https://www.ebay.com/itm/125908471633?h ... AsVA_XKy9M

Thanks Tim. I checked with the seller to see if they had mulching blades in stock. Nope. I was thinking of buying the mulching kit with the blades and a spare set of mulching blades. I'm tempted to make an offer on a pair of kits and resell a set of the deck baffles. The mulching blades have been out of stock for probably 5 years now.

@Timj Thanks for sending me this link. I made an offer on two kits at $200 per kit expecting my offer to be rejected and my offer was accepted. The seller even combined shipping. C45192 mulching blades ran $40-$60 each when last stocked. You guys might want to consider making an offer on the remaining mulching kits.

What decks does the MK 48-2 kit fit that is listed on ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/125908471633. The only decks on the 400 and 4000 series tractors I have seen are 2 bolt mounts. The blades on ebay appear to be single centre hole mounted.

Spike188 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 9:05 pm What decks does the MK 48-2 kit fit that is listed on ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/125908471633. The only decks on the 400 and 4000 series tractors I have seen are 2 bolt mounts. The blades on ebay appear to be single centre hole mounted.

They only fit the right hand discharge decks used on the 3000/4000 series tractors as well as the 3pt finish mowers.

Bob

myerslawnandgarden wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 11:12 pm

Spike188 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 9:05 pm What decks does the MK 48-2 kit fit that is listed on ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/125908471633. The only decks on the 400 and 4000 series tractors I have seen are 2 bolt mounts. The blades on ebay appear to be single centre hole mounted.

They only fit the right hand discharge decks used on the 3000/4000 series tractors as well as the 3pt finish mowers.

Bob

RM48, HRM48H?, AHRM48? Decks

MattA wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 8:35 pm

MattA wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 9:30 am

Timj wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 11:08 pm @MattA ran across this, don't know if you have https://www.ebay.com/itm/125908471633?h ... AsVA_XKy9M

Thanks Tim. I checked with the seller to see if they had mulching blades in stock. Nope. I was thinking of buying the mulching kit with the blades and a spare set of mulching blades. I'm tempted to make an offer on a pair of kits and resell a set of the deck baffles. The mulching blades have been out of stock for probably 5 years now.

@Timj Thanks for sending me this link. I made an offer on two kits at $200 per kit expecting my offer to be rejected and my offer was accepted. The seller even combined shipping. C45192 mulching blades ran $40-$60 each when last stocked. You guys might want to consider making an offer on the remaining mulching kits.

You are very welcome Matt, glad you got them. Probably won't be many more chances to get them.

I have never used mulching blades other than a self propelled mower that you walk behind. It always seems like the grass clippings are everywhere in the grass. This is especially a problem when walking to the pool. I usually use a bagger on my CC machine which an be a PITA in wet grass because the chute plugs up. Do you have to mow more often with a mulching mower so you have less grass to contend with? I would like to try mulching because grandpa is getting tired of unplugging the chute and dumping the collecting bags. I’ve read it’s healthier for the lawn to let the clippings decompose in the lawn. What does everyone do on their lawns? Mulch, bag or just let it fly? Harry

Harry wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 11:14 am I have never used mulching blades other than a self propelled mower that you walk behind. It always seems like the grass clippings are everywhere in the grass. This is especially a problem when walking to the pool. I usually use a bagger on my CC machine which an be a PITA in wet grass because the chute plugs up. Do you have to mow more often with a mulching mower so you have less grass to contend with? I would like to try mulching because grandpa is getting tired of unplugging the chute and dumping the collecting bags. I’ve read it’s healthier for the lawn to let the clippings decompose in the lawn. What does everyone do on their lawns? Mulch, bag or just let it fly? Harry

Harry,

Some mulching mowers work better than others, but yes, you have to cut more often. The rule of thumb is to cut no more than 1" or 1/3rd of the grass blade when mowing. Also you need to cut at nearly the highest position possible, at least 3" for best results. Not feasible for everyone.

Bob

Harry I've bagged my 60,000 square foot lawn with my hydravac for the past few years. It's a lot more work and it probably adds an hour to an hour and a half to each mowing between dumping the bags and installing/removing the bagger (vac stays on). This year I'm just letting the grass fly. If the grass is low enough, I blow the clippings where I'm cutting next so that I can mulch up the clippings better. My grass isn't as thick and green as it was 2 years ago. The drought last year killed parts of my lawn and even with overseeding 200lbs last fall my lawn never recovered. I also haven't fertilized much this year either which helps slow the growth to a more manageable amount.

@Harry I usually keep blowing the cut grass inward and recutting it. If I end up with thick windrows where I meet I make a couple of passes with my sweeper. I think that "mulching" the grass back in has helped build up the grass in my sand lawn. I don't do anything with my lawn other than mow and leaf cleanup.
Tim

For years I just cut the grass and bag it. Once in awhile I would put down some weed and feed but it would never take out a lot of the difficult to kill weeds. Last year with the lawn all tore up with the installation of the new septic system, I decided to try to take care of it. The guy who seeded the grass used a seed that I was not happy with. I over seeded this past spring with a premium Scotts seed. It appears to me not all germinated so I’ll try again. I also get very heavy dew overnight, so the grass is always wet until about noon or some clody days later in the afternoon. This makes bagging difficult. Sometimes I mow and just let the grass fly out then come back the next day and bag it up. I thought the hydro bagger on the 444 would be the answer but then it started leaking oil after I plowed with it last fall. I guess the only way to keep it looking good would be to mow more often which means more gas consumption. I’ve already used 60 gallons this summer which is mostly for mowing. No easy answer unless I just let it grow and bail it up. Harry

Harry wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 11:14 am Do you have to mow more often with a mulching mower so you have less grass to contend with? I would like to try mulching because grandpa is getting tired of unplugging the chute and dumping the collecting bags. I’ve read it’s healthier for the lawn to let the clippings decompose in the lawn. What does everyone do on their lawns? Mulch, bag or just let it fly? Harry

I can only comment on the basis of a big city dweller that doesn't have a yard big enough to swing a cat, let alone justify using one of my Case tractors w/mowing deck... Everything in the city is done with a 15 year old cordless B&D lawn mower set to mulch. This year with all the rain and humidity I've been cutting the grass every 5-7 days and see minimal clippings on the lawn afterwards. The city lot is 80x120 and takes just over an hour to complete. The only time I use the bagger on my cordless mower is in the fall when I suck up and mulch all the leaves before putting them in composting bags for collection by the city.

I have tried using all of my Case tractors in the city yard. It is quicker, but the yard is so uneven and lumpy that I get better results with the walk behind...

Most box store mulching kits contain a pair of mulching blades and a discharge chute cover. When the grass is too deep, the grass clippings tend to build up and clump by the chute cover. And then there's my lazy neighbor who mows every 3-4 weeks with a mulching kit. He literally tries to cut down 12-18" of weeds with some grass mixed in. His tractor struggles to cut it, bogging down and sometimes stalling. The finished product is a thick row of poorly mulched up clippings with every pass, lots of random weeds that just stand back up and a general wavyness to the lawn that looks similar to a plowed field.