Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

Moved this discussion here from Pictures...

Consider this guys, so everybody and their brother want a diesel engine. Let's take this little G5200 as an example. We can expect a little more torque from the diesel engine, as compared to the Kohler K321, but how much? And you have a three cylinder engine, which at some point you will have to rebuild. Somehow I think the one cylinder Kohler is easier to rebuild and cheaper, please correct me if I'm wrong. On the other hand, maybe you save money on fuel with this diesel engine? I have doubts about that too. The other thing is, the availability and price of attachments for the Case is much better around here. For me Case wins big time.

Eugen wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:14 am @FUTZ I am drooling looking at that bbq! That Kubota G5200 has the 14hp 3cyl diesel engine. In all honesty though, I would not trade my 444 for it, even not knowing what @Spike188 just said, but more so now.

Consider this guys, so everybody and their brother want a diesel engine. Let's take this little G5200 as an example. We can expect a little more torque from the diesel engine, as compared to the Kohler K321, but how much? And you have a three cylinder engine, which at some point you will have to rebuild. Somehow I think the one cylinder Kohler is easier to rebuild and cheaper, please correct me if I'm wrong. On the other hand, maybe you save money on fuel with this diesel engine? I have doubts about that too. The other thing is, the availability and price of attachments for the Case is much better around here. For me Case wins big time.

On the other site someone did a diesel swap. I recall him saying what would have taken a full tank of fuel with the Onan, took 1/3 of a tank with the diesel.


Gordy

Gordy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:17 am

On the other site someone did a diesel swap. I recall him saying what would have taken a full tank of fuel with the Onan, took 1/3 of a tank with the diesel.


Gordy

Same HP and similar torque? Come on, free energy?

I can believe some difference, but it's hard to believe the Onan is three times as bad in efficiency, producing the same amount of power.

Well, the diesel has 15% more energy per gallon to start with. After that, the diesel engine is likely more thermally effecient... I'm not sure you're going to cut fuel use in a third, but you could for sure do better than the gas engine.

Kohler K341 16 hp at 3600 rpm, 28.25 ftlb of torque at 2600 rpm.
Shibarua engine, 16 hp at 2700 rpm, 36 ftlb of torque at 1800 rpm

Noel.

Putting a different pump in to take advantage of the extra torque would help too. Possibly a lot if the machine wasn't really working out at the ragged edge of performance to start with.

So on PEI. Diesel is at the moment 39 cents more pre litre than gasoline. I’m guessing in some situations it would cost more to run diesel. Maybe.
Quite a difference in compression ratios in a diesel compared to a gasoline engine. Maybe that’s where the diesel gets it’s power in torque.


Noel

It seemed incredible to me, but it's very close to what the theory says. On average a gasoline engine is apparently 20% efficient. That means that with 10 gallons of gasoline you can mow an area of let's say 5 acres. Diesel apparently figures at 40% efficiency, which means that 10 gallons are used to mow twice that area, 10 acres. In other words, if you use one tank of gas with an Onan engine to mow an area, you can expect to use 1/2 the tank with a diesel engine. 1/2 is not one third, but well, we can brush that 16.6% under mathematical error.

OK, fine! I have a Z400 diesel engine (10HP) that I'm thinking of deploying for mower duty.

Actually that 16% lines up nicely with the additional power density of the diesel fuel.

Toolslinger wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:11 pm Actually that 16% lines up nicely with the additional power density of the diesel fuel.

I believe that is taken into account, as 40% is total efficiency (fuel and combustion). I made the numbers look actually better for diesel. The wikipedia article on this says

Diesel engines generally achieve greater fuel efficiency than petrol (gasoline) engines. Passenger car diesel engines have energy efficiency of up to 41% but more typically 30%, and petrol engines of up to 37.3%, but more typically 20%. A common margin is 25% more miles per gallon for an efficient turbodiesel.

So, typical would be 30% for diesel and 20% for gasoline.

One other thing to remember . When that was built and marketed manly to farmers . The price of "off road " diesel was substantially less than it is now . I have a farmer customer that has one , a little bigger than that one with the 3 pt hitch rear & centre pto . He uses it for cutting grass and pulling small road trailers around the farm . It has over 2000 hrs on it . Still runns like new . Other than standard maintenance , he has only had to do miner stuff like hydraulic hoses , belts ect. and rebuild the deck spindles and gear box . I did that last summer . I think the thing is like 10-12 years old .

Interesting discussion, maybe we should open a thread on this. I did some searches and looked at the specs of a few published Kubota and Kohler diesel engines. Seems to me that if we compare with the Kohler K series, in particular K301 and K321, a modern Kohler diesel engine of similar size will produce similar torque with an old Kohler gas engine with 2HP more.

Example 1: Kohler LDW492, 11.5HP and 20.6 lb-ft gross torque, that would be 1.79 lb-ft per HP
https://kohlerpower.com/en/engines/product/ldw492

vs K321, 14HP and 20.5 lb-ft gross torque, that would be 1.46 lb-ft per HP

Note: peak torque would be more for both, but I could not find those values for the diesel engines.

Example 2: Kohler KDW702 15.4HP and 25.1 lb-ft gross torque, that would be 1.63 lb-ft per HP
https://kohlerpower.com/en/engines/product/kdw702

vs K341, 16HP and 23.5 lb-ft gross torque, that would be 1.59 lb-ft per HP.

@propane1 , that Shibaura engine seems to show 36 lb-ft peak torque. That would probably be matched by an 18HP gas engine? Found the M18 Kohler apparently produces 39 lb-ft at 2600 RPM peak torque.

I'm not trying to prove anything, I was just curious how big the difference is.

That could be true Eugen, the gas kohler engine having the same or more amount of torque, But the shibaura engine has its peak torque at a much lower rpm. How much torque the shibaura looses by the time it gets to 2700 rpm to make full hp is a question.

Noel

Plus I think that 39 lb-ft torque for the Kohler M18 is wrong. Does your son have the Shibaura engine in the Ford?

Yes, that’s where I got the info Eugen. Actually the whole tractor is made by shibaura. Just painted Ford colours.

Noel

propane1 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:12 pm That could be true Eugen, the gas kohler engine having the same or more amount of torque, But the shibaura engine has its peak torque at a much lower rpm. How much torque the shibaura looses by the time it gets to 2700 rpm to make full hp is a question.

Noel

Horsepower = (Torque × RPM) ÷ 5252.
Rearranged...
Torque = (Horsepower × 5252) / RPM.
Shibaura torque = (16HP × 5252) / 2700rpm = 31.12ft-bs.
Hopefully I did that right... the hardest part was spelling shibaura

I recall reading on the forum that someone with a 4020 onan and a 4023 vanguard said the vanguard would mow his lawn with 1/3 less gas.

The latest fuel injected lawn mowers are supposed to be 25% more efficient than today's carburetor lawn mowers plus they start right away.

MattA wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 7:21 pm

propane1 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:12 pm That could be true Eugen, the gas kohler engine having the same or more amount of torque, But the shibaura engine has its peak torque at a much lower rpm. How much torque the shibaura looses by the time it gets to 2700 rpm to make full hp is a question.

Noel

Horsepower = (Torque × RPM) ÷ 5252.
Rearranged...
Torque = (Horsepower × 5252) / RPM.
Shibaura torque = (16HP × 5252) / 2700rpm = 31.12ft-bs.
Hopefully I did that right... the hardest part was spelling shibaura

Interesting calculations. Boy you fellas know how to figure stuff out.

Noel

MattA wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 7:27 pm I recall reading on the forum that someone with a 4020 onan and a 4023 vanguard said the vanguard would mow his lawn with 1/3 less gas.

The latest fuel injected lawn mowers are supposed to be 25% more efficient than today's carburetor lawn mowers plus they start right away.

There is a lot to consider when making these comparisons like displacement and compression ratios. Like the old GM 350ci gas to diesel conversions If memory is correct they were in the 15 or 16 to 1 compression ratio range, while I have seen other diesels as high as 21 to 1 compression ratios.

It has been said many times the Onan's were a successful design from the 1930's (when gas was cheap) that lasted with only small changes till the EPA changed the rules on emissions and how HP was calculated. The old Onan's and Kohler's were known as torque monsters compared to modern engines, this is due to the larger diameter of the pistons. As an example I was looking to replace a 14hp Kohler, as I recall with a Vanguard to get the same torque as the Kohler the #'s lined up between the VG 18 and 20hp engines. For the greens keepers the torque #'s are not that important, but for us with snow blowing and occasional brush hogging in tall grass it matters.


Gordy

I don't trust the numbers posted by people on the web very much, like the 39 lb-ft torque for the Kohler, I'm sure that's wrong. I would trust more numbers either published in manufacturer literature, or on their website. Even those number published by the manufacturer are probably somewhat ideal. For me it's better to take it with a little grain of salt.

Of course everyone would rather have a diesel engine in their tractor, and I think your son will be very happy with that diesel tractor @propane1 . Is that a considered a compact tractor?

As for me, it would be nice to get a diesel engine, but it would have to be at a good price. Most sell for a lot of $$ around here. My point earlier in this thread was that it's hard to beat a Kohler 1-cyl engine if you take into consideration the bigger picture, that is, easy and cheap parts, reliability, power.

But since a diesel engine will cost less in fuel, do you make up enough savings in 10 years to buy a full rebuild kit? I think it also matters how much the tractor gets used. Someone with a lawn care or snow blowing business will go through a lot of fuel in 10 years, much more than me.

Please don't get upset Noel, we are just discussing. The best engine for everyone is the one they decide. I don't decide what's best for you, or for Dave.


@DavidBarkey is your diesel engine going to be deployed? It would be nice to get some first hand experience from you.

Eugen it says on tractordata that it’s a compact utility tractor. Who would know if that’s correct or not.? But in those days of 1985, I don’t think the title of subcompact tractor was born yet. This ford is no bigger or heavier than a modern day subcompact. Weight is around 1450 lbs , bare tractor.

Noel

I’ll try not to get upset Eugen. But I might. I’m just here for the discussion too. I’m not here trying to say what’s best for anybody. I’m sorta wondering why a diesel makes more torque. Than a gasoline engine of same hp. Sons ford 1210 shibaura diesel engine was just used as an example. And as I said before, diesel is 39 cents a litre more here than gasoline. So not much savings there burning diesel. Normally, I think, Diesel engines are more money to get serviced and maintained. Stuff for them costs more, their fluid capacity’s are bigger. Sons ford shibaura diesel is small enough that it’s not much different in cost to service it than a kohler K gasoline engine. Any way, Diesel engines make more power and that’s the way it is. Dump truck, tractor trailer, construction equipment and modern farm tractors all use Diesel engines.

Quite a ramble.

Noel

@Eugen I hope to have the "Bride of Frankenstein" with the Kubota 2 cyl. diesel in it operational this year . That is assuming she doesn't try to clobber me over the head again . Women , dam things are dangerous . The other "Frankie 2" with he Perkins 3cyl. D is on the back burner for now until get some other stuff done .

As a note, if you want to do a diesel conversion make sure you're getting a 3600rpm capable one! Your blade tip speed and any hydraulic work you want to do will be severely hampered by a 2700rpm engine for instance.

Price of diesel fuel has dropped here and gasoline is up.
First time in years that diesel is less than gasoline. .2 cents cheaper, per litre. Sure not much, but cheaper.
So I would say now, because of the prices, Diesel engine would be cheaper to operate.
Sons Ford 1210 tractor he bought in February was filled with diesel then. We still have not put any fuel in it since. Granted it’s not used a lot but it was doing snow duty. It’s been hauling wood in the trailer, we hauled a junk Toyota Land Cruiser with it Saturday, he and his son go for drives in it. I’ve used it a bit too.
So it’s our first diesel son and I used of our own. Had no idea what it would be like on fuel. Seems to be very good.

Fuel ramble.


Noel

A diesel engine is almost guaranteed to be better on fuel than a gasoline equivalent. Not only are you getting the benefit of the energy density (as discussed earlier in the thread) but you also get rid of the throttle plate!

If you think about it, even at 3600rpm if you're not at max load (with your governor wide open), your throttle blade is still partially closed and you're making manifold vacuum.

Let's assume an 18hp or 20hp Onan (B48M, P220, etc) which is a 47.7in^3 engine. Let's say you're 3600rpm doing some work (like mowing) but you're not fully taxing the engine. So let's say you're making ~6 inches of mercury for manifold vacuum (as opposed to 0 inhg manifold vacuum if your throttle was wide open, or ~18 inhg at idle). In addition to doing the work of mowing, your engine is also operating as a 50cfm 3psi vacuum pump, what a waste!



Diesels on the other hand have the advantage of just being able to reduce fuel to control engine speed, so they don't have to worry about wasted work pumping vacuum.

That being said... unless you're specifically mowing acres of lawn at a time and fuel efficiency is a big deal to you, for most users their gas engine will outperform a diesel (in a Case/Ingersoll) due to the rpm limitations on the diesel side. Diesels are still cool though, and the fuel efficiency is nice.

I have a Cummins in my 2002 Dodge 2500. Over a quarter of a million miles on it. I love it and probably won't own another pickup in my life. I like the 36 gallon fuel tank, and like the fact that I can drive it for 6-7 hours without having to stop for fuel if it is unloaded. This engine was just before they started to load them up with pollution control.

Prior truck was 1500 GMC with a 4.3 engine in it that would get 18.1 MPG unloaded at best. It was a standard PU. The Dodge is a heavy 3/4 with the extended cab and full bed, and unloaded often sees 20-21 MPG. So lets call the the efficiency of the diesel engine. When I first bought the truck it was 5000-6000 dollars extra compared to the same Dodge truck with gas. And Diesel was cheaper than gasoline.

With the price increases in diesel since then and the increased maintence of the newer engines, I would be hard pressed to justify a new diesel truck unless I was doing hard pulling like I was doing at the time I bought the original diesel. At the time I was often pulling loads of 15,000-18,000# in addition to truck and trailer weight, and it had the torque to handle it.

I would probably never use enough fuel through a garden tractor to justify putting a diesel conversion into the tractor! Even if it was more effecient !

Bill Moyer

Gasoline is $1.64 per litre and Diesel is $2.14 per litre here now.

Noel