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Re: Woke up again this morning

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:36 am
by Eugen
Haven't posted in a few days, been quite busy. The 444 doesn't seem to like freezing temps, didn't want to start so I had to clear the snow with the walk behind. :| could be worse right?

Changed the oil on the backhoe, I have never seen such black oil in my life. And it was way over the FULL level, and all watery. . Should've taken a picture. The watery bit worries me a bit, hope coolant doesn't make it into the oil somehow :109: Found out there's some problem with the charging circuit too, no 24V on the batteries. More work for me to troubleshoot this. The hydraulic oil is at the lowest level too. :/

Gone over another birthday uneventfully. :cheers:

We are all completely recovered from covid. Thank God!

Re: Woke up again this morning

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:05 am
by Timj
Glad you and the family are doing good. Really sucks when everyone is sick.

Diesels really make the oil black. It will be harder to tell but coolent should make it milky. It may be fuel in the oil. You may be able to smell it. Keep an eye on it and see if it gains quickly and if it gains when standing besides running. The injector pump may be leaking fuel. :( If the lines run to the injectors internally it could be one of them leaking.

:congrats: HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! 🎂You old fart. :rofl: :cheers:
:geek: Tim

Re: Woke up again this morning

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:43 am
by Eugen
thanks you young buck! :rofl: :))

yeah, wasn't milky at all, just runny. Got no experience at all with diesels. Hm.. bad injector(s) you say, hopefully it's not too bad to take them out to troubleshoot. :109:

Re: Woke up again this morning

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:53 am
by propane1
Black diesel oil. That’s for sure. You could polish your black dress shoes with it. And they would be black and sorta water proof. :78: :rofl: :D
I wouldn’t get to excited right away. I’d run it a bit and keep an eye ;) on the oil and coolant.

Birthday. I don’t get excited over them. Hope you had a nice day thou.

Noel

Re: Woke up again this morning

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:07 am
by Timj
Yep, Don't get excited yet. :42: :letmesee: Keep an eye on it now that you have the oil changed. If it sat around for a long time or if the oil hadn't been changed in a long time, the smallest leak could add up. If it's really small it may not matter for what you're going to use it.
Been down this road more than a few times.
:geek: Tim

Re: Woke up again this morning

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:51 am
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:36 am Haven't posted in a few days, been quite busy. The 444 doesn't seem to like freezing temps, didn't want to start so I had to clear the snow with the walk behind. :| could be worse right?

Changed the oil on the backhoe, I have never seen such black oil in my life. And it was way over the FULL level, and all watery. . Should've taken a picture. The watery bit worries me a bit, hope coolant doesn't make it into the oil somehow :109: Found out there's some problem with the charging circuit too, no 24V on the batteries. More work for me to troubleshoot this. The hydraulic oil is at the lowest level too. :/

Gone over another birthday uneventfully. :cheers:

We are all completely recovered from covid. Thank God!
Coolant would sit at the bottom or will go milky if pumped though the system . You would have noticed that draining it .
I think you will find that the hydraulic pump front seal is leaking hydra oil into the engine oil . My buddies tractor keeped loosing hydraulic with no signs of leak until the engine oil got so high it was coming out the dip stick tube . This is very common in tractors so I found out . New pump , oil change and all is good again .
They only way to know for sure is to make sure both are at preset levels and use it for a bit . Keep checking levels and if hydra goes down and engine oil goes up . Guess what you are replacing .

Dave

Re: Woke up again this morning

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:56 am
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen Happy Birthday , ye old fart :rofl: :rofl:

Dave

Re: Woke up again this morning

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:00 pm
by Spike188
@Eugen Happy Birthday cause someone ratted on you. :bla:

Eugene

Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:44 pm
by Eugen
Y'all know I got this backhoe loader. I've started a thread on it, if you guys don't mind, and moved the relevant posts from the other topic here.

IMG_6038.jpg

So, thank you guys, for both advice and wishes. I kinda always hated my bday celebration, so spending the day with the family is just fine with me. My wife gave me the best bday present "go do something on your new toy" she said, meaning the backhoe. So I changed the oil. I wanted to move it around a bit but Timothy got scared and started crying so I turned it off and we all went for a walk. He loves the idea of the backhoe, but maybe it's a bit too big for him now, until he gets used to it. :D

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:11 pm
by propane1
A buddies Ford 3000 farm tractor was leaking power steering fluid into the engine oil. I helped him fix it, but can’t remember how or what caused it, but that’s what it was doing.


Noel

Re: Woke up again this morning

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:45 pm
by Doublet
Spike188 wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:00 pm @Eugen Happy Birthday cause someone ratted on you. :bla:

Eugene
Happy Birthday
@Eugen Have a special day on your birthday! Buy your wife and kids presents.
They will appreciate you. Have a Good day!

I personally don't drink but this could be a frosty mug of A&W Root Beer.

:usa: :cheers: :canada:

Doublet (Terry)

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 4:09 pm
by Chad
Happy Birthday, glad all are well now! Spending time with family is a great way to celebrate

Like others have said just keep an eye on things and troubleshoot as you go.

And yes, bigger tractors can be scary to little ones - I remember one of my brothers crying when my grandpa would start his IH 986. He'll be watching you in it soon enough and then wanting to be up there too :)

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:39 pm
by Eugen
I didn't want to get excited but ran the tractor for about 10 minutes, moved it back and forth, lifted the bucket and backhoe. Engine oil level doubled. Now I'm trying to figure out if it's hydraulic fluid or diesel that makes it into the engine. And all of a sudden I now know why the guy let it go so cheap. :violin:

I'm thinking that the only way for hydraulic fluid to make it into the engine would be from the pump. The pump is located a the front of the engine, has a splined shaft that gets turned by the engine. Trying to make sense of how this could happen. If the shaft seal on the pump is damaged, then fluid would go in via the crankshaft seal which also must be damaged.

Looking at the parts manual, the pump shaft turns that hub, which I think is connected to the crankshaft pulley. If this is where the leak is, I'm actually surprised that it's not an exterior leak. :| :109: got myself into a tight spot I think.
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Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:51 pm
by Eugen
Actually the hub seems to have 8 holes and the crankshaft pulley only 6, so that's not where the pump is connected. :(

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:06 pm
by propane1
I’m sorta remembering a bit now about the Ford I mentioned earlier. The power steering pump was run by the crank or cam by a gear or chain. Any way, power steering pump had a bad shaft seal. So the steering fluid would run out the seal to where the pump was driven by the gear or chain which was the engine oil side.

Sorry to hear of your troubles Eugen.

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:22 pm
by propane1
Can’t see how it would leak from the pump seal into the crank shaft seal. So was the hydraulic oil down, after doing this 10 minute run. ? I know nothing about these tractors or engines. But would there be a diesel fuel line in the engine leaking. Or the fuel injection pump leaking into the engine some how.

Chev Duramax diesel trucks had that problem. Diesel line in the engine would fail and fill the base oil with fuel.

Might be time to get excited. Don’t run it to much if it’s diesel fuel in the oil. Might harm engine.

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:24 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:51 pm Actually the hub seems to have 8 holes and the crankshaft pulley only 6, so that's not where the pump is connected. :(
Can you take some pic. of the hydraulic pump and the injector pump so I can get batter idea of what you got .

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:37 pm
by propane1
DavidBarkey wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:24 pm
Eugen wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:51 pm Actually the hub seems to have 8 holes and the crankshaft pulley only 6, so that's not where the pump is connected. :(
Can you take some pic. of the hydraulic pump and the injector pump so I can get batter idea of what you got .

Dave
Be easier to see stuff, that’s for sure. Maybe power steering pump too if there’s one.

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:34 pm
by Eugen
I'll get some pictures of the actual thingy there asap.

But just figured this out: the 6 hole crankshaft pulley picture was from the service manual, but in the parts manual it shows it pretty clearly with 8 holes.

OK, I think I got the right picture in my head now. The crankshaft comes out of the engine and it has a seal. The crankshaft pulley bolts on the crankshaft. There is the pump to engine bracket around the pulley. And the hydraulic pump is mounted on the bracket, but its splined shaft mates with the splined hub, which is bolted on the crankshaft pulley with 8 bolts. I find it hard to believe that hydraulic fluid makes its way out of the hydraulic pump, through the crankshaft seal and into the engine.


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Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:36 pm
by propane1
Can’t happen as far as I know. Crank or pump seals bad it would be running out on the ground.

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:38 pm
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen Ok based on what you uploaded . It can't be hydra . PS.will be run off hydra circuit.
Based on that you did not see water/coolant when draining oil . Only one thing left Diesel fuel from lift pump or injector pump. Look to see if the lift pump has been changed . If not change it and hope for the best . If it has been change , someone has already gone down this road and you need a injector pump it repaired/rebuilt.

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:25 pm
by Timj
With the fresh oil and fuel you should be able to smell the diesel in the oil on the dip stick.

Do all of the fuel lines to the injectors and the returns from the injectors run on the outside of the engine? There's usually returns from the injectors back to the fuel tank. I've had ones that run under the valve covers leak and fill the crankcase.

It is probably the seals in the injector pump. Now the question is to rebuild or replace. Hopefully you can find a good honest guy that will help you. The last one I had rebuilt only lasted about nine months and failed, took it back and the guy said ya it was pretty wore, I didn't think it would last. I told him that was fine, but why didn't you tell me that when you had it apart, I would have just ordered a new one then. Expensive pump on a little Ford 4 cylinder.
My father just put a new pump on his old 4500 Ford backhoe, I can ask for sure but I think it was about $600. It had been leaking a little for awhile but finally let go and would fill the crankcase in no time.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:47 am
by Eugen
Guys, I'm so grateful for your presence here, and for your help!
Eugen Ok based on what you uploaded . It can't be hydra . PS.will be run off hydra circuit.
Based on that you did not see water/coolant when draining oil . Only one thing left Diesel fuel from lift pump or injector pump. Look to see if the lift pump has been changed . If not change it and hope for the best . If it has been change , someone has already gone down this road and you need a injector pump it repaired/rebuilt.
Dave, hydraulic fluid from the pump just can't make it into the engine through there. It's hard to take a good picture of that area, but here it is. The hub on the crankshaft pulley is bone dry. You can see the splined pump shaft is dry too. Looks like there's some leak around the pump somewhere but that can't make it into the crankcase.


IMG_6226.HEIC.png

IMG_6225.HEIC.png

So we're back to Tim's initial guess that it must be diesel in the oil.
Timj wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:25 pm With the fresh oil and fuel you should be able to smell the diesel in the oil on the dip stick.
I took some of the tainted oil off the dipstick on a paper towel and gave it to my wife to smell it, she's pretty sure it smells like diesel. Funny I can't tell, in fact even clean diesel out of the can doesn't smell like much to me. :D something wrong with my nose I suppose. :107: I kinda trust my wife as she had a diesel car in her youth in Europe and she says she really knows that smell.
Do all of the fuel lines to the injectors and the returns from the injectors run on the outside of the engine? There's usually returns from the injectors back to the fuel tank. I've had ones that run under the valve covers leak and fill the crankcase.
This I have to check, I'm not sure if the returns are external or internal.
It is probably the seals in the injector pump. Now the question is to rebuild or replace. Hopefully you can find a good honest guy that will help you. The last one I had rebuilt only lasted about nine months and failed, took it back and the guy said ya it was pretty wore, I didn't think it would last. I told him that was fine, but why didn't you tell me that when you had it apart, I would have just ordered a new one then. Expensive pump on a little Ford 4 cylinder.
My father just put a new pump on his old 4500 Ford backhoe, I can ask for sure but I think it was about $600. It had been leaking a little for awhile but finally let go and would fill the crankcase in no time.
We can eliminate the transfer pump too, it's outside the engine.

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So we're left with either the return lines, or the injectors, or a leak by the injection pump. You can see here the injection pump is connected to the engine case and it could leak by its shaft I suppose.

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My plan of attack now is to take the injectors out and have a look.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:03 am
by propane1
I wonder if you could take that plug out and have a look in with a flashlight. Then maybe do the same thing with engine running. But put plug in before starting then slowly take plug out. Maybe oil splashing when running.

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:23 am
by Timj
Can't quite see enough from the pic of the injector pump, but it looks like the return lines are on the outside. So leaking out the injector pump shaft is probably the most likely. :((
Noel's idea would be worth a try. :thumbsup: You might be able to see if the diesel washed the oil away just by looking in there.

My wife has a nose for any fuel, gas, exhaust or oil. I can't smell it, but she knows if I drove past a gas station or I looked at a gas can. :D It never fails, if I have to fill up when we're going somewhere, I get some on me. :bla: :112: :107:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:33 am
by Spike188
I friends JD 2020 with high oil level last fall was due to a leaking injector pump shaft seal. Turned out to be a cheap fix when we bypassed the dealer and purchased a shaft seal from our bearing supplier.

I hope @Eugen gets off this easy.

Spike

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 3:19 pm
by Eugen
Can't see much through that hole that Noel suggested. That's used to set the pump timing if the pump gets removed.

Was able to take the injectors out. Can't see anything very obviously wrong with them. Also, if an injector was leaky in a cylinder, wouldn't the smoke be black? Now the smoke is whiteish.

The injectors could do use a cleaning though. Not sure why one of them looks wet, while the other just dry carbon buildup.

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Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 3:32 pm
by propane1
Not firing in that cylinder I would say. So all fuel from that cylinder going into base. That’s my guess.


Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 3:39 pm
by Eugen
The oil level went up double what it was in after I put new oil in, and it took about 4-5 minutes of running. I kinda have a hard time accepting that so much fuel would get dumped through one injector. The tractor does feel like rough idle. :40:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:10 pm
by Timj
If the injectors don't mist the fuel it won't run good, but it will run. If there's not enough pressure on them or they're wore, they don't mist the fuel. Running rich or not complete burning will be white smoke. It will smell more like diesel fuel than exhaust. Especially when not working it hard.
The pump doesn't pump much volume, it pumps pressure. The pump wouldn't pump that much in that short of time through the injectors. It has to be pushing it around the shaft and in.

Is the fuel tank up above, under the hood on your tractor or is it below, in the step to the cab?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:25 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 3:19 pm Can't see much through that hole that Noel suggested. That's used to set the pump timing if the pump gets removed.

Was able to take the injectors out. Can't see anything very obviously wrong with them. Also, if an injector was leaky in a cylinder, wouldn't the smoke be black? Now the smoke is whiteish.

The injectors could do use a cleaning though. Not sure why one of them looks wet, while the other just dry carbon buildup.


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The wet one was the last one to squirt on shut down , or is dirty and leaking down after shut down .

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:43 pm
by Eugen
The fuel tank is not under the hood. Must be somewhere below the seat as the fuelling cap is toward the back of the cab.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:55 pm
by Timj
Eugen wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:43 pm The fuel tank is not under the hood. Must be somewhere below the seat as the fuelling cap is toward the back of the cab.
Ok, not real familiar with the Case's. Everybody's different, our Ford's have it up in front of the cab behind the motor. They gravity feed the injector pump.

Just trying to rule out fuel shut off leaking when it was standing. If you checked the oil before you started it and it wasn't already up then we come back to the pump.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:02 pm
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen Can you find an exploded/ parts view of the injector pump . You may need to look it up by the numbers on the pump itself .

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:13 pm
by Eugen
Timj wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:55 pm Ok, not real familiar with the Case's. Everybody's different, our Ford's have it up in front of the cab behind the motor. They gravity feed the injector pump.

Just trying to rule out fuel shut off leaking when it was standing. If you checked the oil before you started it and it wasn't already up then we come back to the pump.
Not gravity fed, it has an electric transfer pump. So yeah, must be the injection pump then.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:17 pm
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:02 pm @Eugen Can you find an exploded/ parts view of the injector pump . You may need to look it up by the numbers on the pump itself .

Dave
Seems to be a whole family of them, couldn't find one for this exact one, but for one in the family. This pump is the Bosch PES4A85D420LS2459 and found a diagram of a different PES4A. The pump I have has a feed of oil directly from the engine oil filter.

Found a guy on ebay who sells a seal kit for my pump and it's not too expensive. I'm thinking of getting it and use only the easiest seals I can get to. The pump seems really complicated to take apart entirely.


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Hoping it's the shaft seal and that the shaft doesn't have to be taken out to replace the seal. :109:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 6:06 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:17 pm
DavidBarkey wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:02 pm @Eugen Can you find an exploded/ parts view of the injector pump . You may need to look it up by the numbers on the pump itself .

Dave
Seems to be a whole family of them, couldn't find one for this exact one, but for one in the family. This pump is the Bosch PES4A85D420LS2459 and found a diagram of a different PES4A. The pump I have has a feed of oil directly from the engine oil filter.

Found a guy on ebay who sells a seal kit for my pump and it's not too expensive. I'm thinking of getting it and use only the easiest seals I can get to. The pump seems really complicated to take apart entirely.



bosch-pes4a.png



Hoping it's the shaft seal and that the shaft doesn't have to be taken out to replace the seal. :109:
Ok, get the kit and then we can do the seals at my shop , then take it back and in stall . When you have it back together I can help you bleed the injectors .

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:49 pm
by Timj
DavidBarkey wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 6:06 pm
Eugen wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:17 pm
DavidBarkey wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:02 pm @Eugen Can you find an exploded/ parts view of the injector pump . You may need to look it up by the numbers on the pump itself .

Dave
Seems to be a whole family of them, couldn't find one for this exact one, but for one in the family. This pump is the Bosch PES4A85D420LS2459 and found a diagram of a different PES4A. The pump I have has a feed of oil directly from the engine oil filter.

Found a guy on ebay who sells a seal kit for my pump and it's not too expensive. I'm thinking of getting it and use only the easiest seals I can get to. The pump seems really complicated to take apart entirely.



bosch-pes4a.png



Hoping it's the shaft seal and that the shaft doesn't have to be taken out to replace the seal. :109:
Ok, get the kit and then we can do the seals at my shop , then take it back and in stall . When you have it back together I can help you bleed the injectors .

Dave
This sounds like a good plan. :122:
:cheers:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:21 am
by Eugen
Thanks Dave!!

Axed the guy on ebay if the shaft seal is included, just to make sure. As you guys know the only time I get to work on such things is usually after the kids are asleep and the chores are done. So last night at about 11PM I went out to pull the pump out. Looks like quite some things need to be pulled out to get to the pump though, so I gave up :headbash: Maybe tomorrow during the day :whip:

In other news I need to take a good look at that 224 and figure out why it wouldn't start in the freezing cold. :51: :52: :whip:

Thanks for putting up with my various tractor soap operas guys, and for all your advice!!! Wish I could send you all some beers! Lucky Dave he's not far so he'll get some :drink:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:50 pm
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen Based on what I can see so far . There is only fuel in the top end of the injector pump and the transfer pump/primmer pump based on this picture . the "shaft" is lubed by the engine oil , not fuel like in some .
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It still could be the transfer/ primer pump leaking .
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Or could be the lower seal on one of the individual pumps .

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:57 pm
by Eugen
Dave, the transfer pump is connected to the injection pump, so i don't see how it could leak inside the crankcase. If it would leak inside the pump, then to make it to the crankcase it would still have to leak around the shaft. As far as I can tell the only connection between the pump and engine is the shaft on which is the gear turned by the engine for timing

pumpgear.png

I suppose I could take the cover off and see for real if fuel goes through there.

But now I'm kinda stuck, I broke a tee fitting which was on top of one of the injectors :(( must order one from the :usa:

Guys, would it be worth sending the injectors to a shop to have them "rebuilt" or whatever they do to get them in better shape?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 5:17 pm
by Timj
I don't know what they do these days, they use to test and fix them. I don't know if that has gone down the just put new in road too. Probably have to call around and see.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 5:29 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:57 pm Dave, the transfer pump is connected to the injection pump, so i don't see how it could leak inside the crankcase. If it would leak inside the pump, then to make it to the crankcase it would still have to leak around the shaft. As far as I can tell the only connection between the pump and engine is the shaft on which is the gear turned by the engine for timing


pumpgear.png


I suppose I could take the cover off and see for real if fuel goes through there.

But now I'm kinda stuck, I broke a tee fitting which was on top of one of the injectors :(( must order one from the :usa:

Guys, would it be worth sending the injectors to a shop to have them "rebuilt" or whatever they do to get them in better shape?
Pull the transfer pump off for now and see if the is oil or diesel back there .Make sure you have something to block off the line from the tank in case it starts siphoning . From what I can see so far the only shaft seal is on the back of the injector pump to hold oil in . There is an oil line going to the pump to feed crank case oil to the shaft and the oil returns out the front where the timing gear is.

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 3:58 am
by propane1
Something just seems strange. How could a bad gasket or seal put that much fuel into the base in that short of time. As I’ve said before, I don’t know any thing about diesels. But I’m curious to know what’s wrong. You would think it would have to be pressure from some where doing that. So the pump makes pressure all the time while the motor is turning ? Then some thing opens to allow fuel to the injector ? Is this how it sorta operates ?
So if this is sorta right, would it be possible that what ever opens to let fuel to the injector be stuck open, pushing fuel all the time into that cylinder that had the wet injector ?

Here I am up at 4:30 am or so drinking coffee and rambling on about some thing I know nothing about. Hehe. Oh well.

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 6:56 am
by DavidBarkey
Propane57 wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 3:58 am Something just seems strange. How could a bad gasket or seal put that much fuel into the base in that short of time. As I’ve said before, I don’t know any thing about diesels. But I’m curious to know what’s wrong. You would think it would have to be pressure from some where doing that. So the pump makes pressure all the time while the motor is turning ? Then some thing opens to allow fuel to the injector ? Is this how it sorta operates ?
So if this is sorta right, would it be possible that what ever opens to let fuel to the injector be stuck open, pushing fuel all the time into that cylinder that had the wet injector ?

Here I am up at 4:30 am or so drinking coffee and rambling on about some thing I know nothing about. Hehe. Oh well.

Noel
That much fuel in 1 cylinder would cause a hydro lock in that cylinder.

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 7:09 am
by DavidBarkey
How this style of injector pump works .
image.png
The shaft is nothing more than a cam shaft and is lubed by engine oil .
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Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:09 am
by propane1
DavidBarkey wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 6:56 am
Propane57 wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 3:58 am Something just seems strange. How could a bad gasket or seal put that much fuel into the base in that short of time. As I’ve said before, I don’t know any thing about diesels. But I’m curious to know what’s wrong. You would think it would have to be pressure from some where doing that. So the pump makes pressure all the time while the motor is turning ? Then some thing opens to allow fuel to the injector ? Is this how it sorta operates ?
So if this is sorta right, would it be possible that what ever opens to let fuel to the injector be stuck open, pushing fuel all the time into that cylinder that had the wet injector ?

Here I am up at 4:30 am or so drinking coffee and rambling on about some thing I know nothing about. Hehe. Oh well.

Noel
That much fuel in 1 cylinder would cause a hydro lock in that cylinder.

Dave
True . Thanks for the pump diagrams, I sorta have an idea now how it works.
But, let’s say rings are worn out badly or broken rings which wear holes in the top side of the piston, happened to my ferguson tractor, piston cracked, piston split in half, top not moving but bottom still does, happened in my kohler k301 engine, or just a plain hole in piston.
May not hydro lock then.
Any way, I rambling again.

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:43 am
by propane1
Some pictures of a piston with broken rings that came out of my Ferguson tractor. That cylinder had 35 psi compression. Other cylinders had 60,85 and 100 psi. Tractor still was working cutting grass and sawing wood. Had a little trouble plowing at our Plow match thou.

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:14 am
by Timj
The amount of fuel pumped is very small, when you're bleeding them it's just a spit when that cylinder is fed. It would take considerable time to pump a quart of fuel through an injector and get to the crankcase, even if that cylinder was not firing. Say he was working the tractor, burning 2 gallons per hour, that would be 2 quarts per hour through that injector.
When my injector pump failed on my Ford 172ci on a drill rig, (twice)oil level was normal at startup, some time during the day oil and fuel was pouring out of the valve cover. The motor continued to run swimming in fuel. I kept smelling raw fuel went up front to find it running out.
We didn't mess around with it to see what failed in the injector pump, took it to a shop, you know the rest of the story.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:23 am
by DavidBarkey
Because the tank is higher than the pump , a leaky diaphragm in the transfer pump could still supply enough fuel for it to run as long as it didn't lose it's prime . i suspect the diaphragm has has gotten hard and shrunk with age and although still working a bit it is leaking fuel past and into the injector housing and from there into the oil pan .

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:28 am
by Eugen
@DavidBarkey what confused me is that they show a different transfer pump in the parts manual, which is electric and away from the injection pump. But you're right, there is a lift pump right there on the pump, and it's diaphragm based. I'll try to pull it out today and we see what's what. I think you just figured it out Dave! :worship:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 3:51 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:28 am @DavidBarkey what confused me is that they show a different transfer pump in the parts manual, which is electric and away from the injection pump. But you're right, there is a lift pump right there on the pump, and it's diaphragm based. I'll try to pull it out today and we see what's what. I think you just figured it out Dave! :worship:
Based on what I could look up there are 2 systems depending on when it was made . Yours based on picture is on the injector pump while the later models are electric in the tank .

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:23 am
by Eugen
Pulled the lift pump out but wasn't able to disassemble it completely. This is the type of pump I got:


Screen Shot 2022-02-14 at 09.58.36.png

Screen Shot 2022-02-14 at 09.57.43.png


I'm having a hard time seeing how fuel would not go in the injection pump, as I see no seal separating the lift pump and the injection pump.

Curious what part 17 in the diagram is made of. Steel, or some sort of membrane seal.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:24 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:23 am Pulled the lift pump out but wasn't able to disassemble it completely. This is the type of pump I got:



Screen Shot 2022-02-14 at 09.58.36.png



Screen Shot 2022-02-14 at 09.57.43.png



I'm having a hard time seeing how fuel would not go in the injection pump, as I see no seal separating the lift pump and the injection pump.

Curious what part 17 in the diagram is made of. Steel, or some sort of membrane seal.
When you pulled the pump , did the roller have crank case oil on it ??

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:27 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:23 am Pulled the lift pump out but wasn't able to disassemble it completely. This is the type of pump I got:



Screen Shot 2022-02-14 at 09.58.36.png



Screen Shot 2022-02-14 at 09.57.43.png



I'm having a hard time seeing how fuel would not go in the injection pump, as I see no seal separating the lift pump and the injection pump.

Curious what part 17 in the diagram is made of. Steel, or some sort of membrane seal.
#17 may have the seal as part of it so as not being serviced separate .
Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:34 pm
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:24 pm

When you pulled the pump , did the roller have crank case oil on it ??

Dave
Yes. And there was quite a bit of oil in the opening there, below the cam and shaft, which poured out when I pulled the feed pump off the injection pump.

Had to come to Toronto because of an emergency and got no tools here to take the pump apart. :headbash:

Took me a long time to figure out what model this pump is. The PO painted over the pump label. Tried to take the thick paint off and the original paint also came off; turns out that I could make out some of the model characters.

It's model FP/KE 22 AD 2??


tempImageCMVWOO.gif

I see two ways of going forward. Open up this old pump, and figure out why it leaks, then find replacement internal parts.

Or buy a new pump from ebay for about $100 and hope it's a perfect fit, or replace as many of the parts on the old one with transplants from the new one. Found one that is a replacement for Bosch feed pumps models:
FP/KE22AD112/2 FP/KE22AD190/2 FP/KE22AD202/2 FP/KE22AD246/2 FP/KE22AD249/2 FP/KE22AD265/2 FP/KE22AD283/2 FP/KE22AD286/2 FP/KE22AD288/2 FP/KE22AD294/2 FP/KE22AD297/2

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 4:10 pm
by Eugen
Took the pump apart. Fuel from the main feed pump chamber can only pass to the other side beside the middle rod. There îs no diaphragm or seal membrane of any type, this middle rod pushes the piston on the other side which also doesn't have any seal. It metal on metal, but it seems like a very small clearance between them.


Here's the rod taken out.


AAFFBB0B-033F-4B2C-82DC-91CEA54C170E.jpeg


Here's the piston.


E21F4C19-5245-4F1A-AD17-EB75D8F3E33A.jpeg


And what it looks like when they re in.


32DF2BB1-6705-46CB-B7CE-817A9A349B3A.jpeg

8699719E-3FD4-48DD-B5EF-9AA9FA62D8C5.jpeg


The bad news for me is that once assembled I tried to blow air from one side to the other and couldn't. So I don't see how so much diesel could migrate over to the injection pump, in such a short time, through such a good seal. :40:


Back to square 1. :(

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:02 pm
by Timj
Part #518, what is it, did you find it?
Can you follow the path of the fuel through the pump?
It doesn't seem like that rod and piston would seal enough to keep fuel from bypassing it. Is that piston doing the pumping or is it operating something inside that's doing the pumping? (518?)
I can't get my head wrapped around it and how exactly it's working. The steel on steel would seem to be high wear except for running in oil, and it's old and not crazy wore.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:20 pm
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen Try depressing the the plunger all the way and blow air through . Like an engine it may leak more at TDC than at BDC .
There seam to be a lot of scaring on the piston .

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:05 pm
by Eugen
Timj wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:02 pm Part #518, what is it, did you find it?
Can you follow the path of the fuel through the pump?
It doesn't seem like that rod and piston would seal enough to keep fuel from bypassing it. Is that piston doing the pumping or is it operating something inside that's doing the pumping? (518?)
I can't get my head wrapped around it and how exactly it's working. The steel on steel would seem to be high wear except for running in oil, and it's old and not crazy wore.
Part #518 in the parts diagram I think is just a cap and I don't have it. Here's a sketch of the path the fluid takes when the plunger is pushed in. V1 and V2 are the two valves. V1 opens and V2 closes when the plunger gets pushed in by the cam, and the other way around when the plunger gets pushed out by the spring because the cam turned it's tip away from the plunger.

DB54414C-620F-4B3E-AE1C-7F11F9A12C22.jpeg
19B53FED-F498-4B2C-A1AE-3A3BB11385F1.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:34 pm
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:20 pm @Eugen Try depressing the the plunger all the way and blow air through . Like an engine it may leak more at TDC than at BDC .
There seam to be a lot of scaring on the piston .

Dave
It's air tight in all positions.


Now I'm thinking either the injection pump has an internal failure and it dumps fuel in the camshaft area, or the liquid in the oil pan is not diesel.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:48 pm
by Eugen
Found this nice image of an injection pump of the type I got. For fuel to make it from where the arrow points to the camshaft, it would have to be able to go down between the plunger and sleeve (piston and cylinder).


bosch_inline_pump_view1.jpg


The plunger and sleeve are supposed to be mated with very tight tolerance, so for fuel to go down so fast there would have to be some catastrophic wear. Somehow I find this also very unlikely.


CAV13.jpg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:54 pm
by Timj
Ok, wow, :O I guess about as simple as it gets. Can't believe it doesn't have any seals or wipers. Fuel seems to find it's way past gaskets, seals, and threads with ease. Surprised it can maintain prime. :hm:
Well, what little would leak past wouldn't fill the crankcase that fast.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:02 pm
by Eugen
Yeah, I know Tim, I guess if you machine and mate your parts well you can have a pump like this working for many years with insignificant leak by. I found out that this very pump model has been used as feed/lift pump for many many engines, Mercedes included. Clearly this is from an era when Bosch made quality stuff. At least I'm getting an edekation here :D

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:32 pm
by Eugen
Finally found a better image of the camshaft seal and general are. Makes it even more unbelievable that fuel somehow makes it into the oil sump of the injection pump, and then past the seal and/or end gasket.

I'm veeeeeery puzzled right now. :109:


injection-pump-shaft-seal-detail.png

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:54 pm
by Eugen
Ha, don't know why I wasn't able to find the service manual for the injection pump before. This one has some interesting information, as you may well think.

There's a designed oil drain on the side of camshaft end. So, oil eventually is supposed to come out of there and into the timing gear cover, and then crankcase.


oil_drain_designed_in.png

But then a few pages later there's a more detailed feed pump parts diagram. Looky looky part #12 -- an oring?! But really, how would that make any difference at all? Got excited for a microsecond there.


oring_no_12_wtf.png

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:51 am
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:48 pm Found this nice image of an injection pump of the type I got. For fuel to make it from where the arrow points to the camshaft, it would have to be able to go down between the plunger and sleeve (piston and cylinder).



bosch_inline_pump_view1.jpg



The plunger and sleeve are supposed to be mated with very tight tolerance, so for fuel to go down so fast there would have to be some catastrophic wear. Somehow I find this also very unlikely.



CAV13.jpg
If it was leaking past anyone of the plungers it would not build pressure and that cylinder would not fire and since you said it ran fine I would eliminate that .
What just accrued to me is if one of the injector pumps had backed out a little when someone in the past doing a repair that required removing the lines and did not properly re-torque them . Fuel would be able to leak from from the fuel passage to the shaft area . From what I can see each pump is seal at the bottom by clamping force. This type of leak could still alow the injector to function . Other possibility is that at some point the was water in the system that froze and there is a crack internal , but i would expect that if that was the case there would have been other damage .
I think before going any further , A- drain some oil off and see if it has water in it or is just thin and smells of diesel , B- If it is water go down that path , if it is thinned out by diesel go to step C.
C- remove the lines from injector pump and make sure all nuts are free . release the clamps and crack loose each injector slightly to make sure move freely enough and re-torque down to spec. re-assemble, chain oil again ( don't worry about the filter just drain it and put back on ) and call me to come over and give you a hand bleeding the injectors .

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 12:00 pm
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:51 am If it was leaking past anyone of the plungers it would not build pressure and that cylinder would not fire and since you said it ran fine I would eliminate that .
I don't about running fine though. Listen to the same model tractor that I found on youtube, sounds to me more smooth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YI9rtOIF5g&t=70s



Whereas mine sounds like tar-tar-tar-tar

Maybe that's a sign that fuel delivery or pressure wasn't right anyway.




I don't have experience with diesel engines so I'm not sure if it sounds like it's got a problem or not.

What just accrued to me is if one of the injector pumps had backed out a little when someone in the past doing a repair that required removing the lines and did not properly re-torque them . Fuel would be able to leak from from the fuel passage to the shaft area . From what I can see each pump is seal at the bottom by clamping force. This type of leak could still alow the injector to function .
I can try to re-torque them, yes.

Other possibility is that at some point the was water in the system that froze and there is a crack internal , but i would expect that if that was the case there would have been other damage .
I think before going any further , A- drain some oil off and see if it has water in it or is just thin and smells of diesel , B- If it is water go down that path , if it is thinned out by diesel go to step C.
If there was water or coolant in the oil, shouldn't the oil have been bubbly/cloudy after it ran? A buddy of mine had a boat whose engine wasn't properly winterized so the manifold cracked and there was water in the oil. We didn't know right away, so we tried to run it, started for a few seconds and then died. But the oil was cloudy/gray.
C- remove the lines from injector pump and make sure all nuts are free . release the clamps and crack loose each injector slightly to make sure move freely enough and re-torque down to spec. re-assemble, chain oil again ( don't worry about the filter just drain it and put back on ) and call me to come over and give you a hand bleeding the injectors .
Dave
Will try the re-torque. But can't run it at all, as i'm missing those parts for the fuel return line and waiting for them, plus the feed pump. I'm going to take the injectors to a shop in Toronto to have them looked at and if needed fix/clean them.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 12:09 pm
by Eugen
Propane57 wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:43 am Some pictures of a piston with broken rings that came out of my Ferguson tractor. That cylinder had 35 psi compression. Other cylinders had 60,85 and 100 psi. Tractor still was working cutting grass and sawing wood. Had a little trouble plowing at our Plow match thou.

Noel
That's nasty! I'm suspecting that one of the cylinders in this tractor doesn't work. But to check the compression on this engine I need a special adaptor that goes into the injector hole and it's $$. :|

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 12:13 pm
by Eugen
Timj wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:14 am The amount of fuel pumped is very small, when you're bleeding them it's just a spit when that cylinder is fed. It would take considerable time to pump a quart of fuel through an injector and get to the crankcase, even if that cylinder was not firing. Say he was working the tractor, burning 2 gallons per hour, that would be 2 quarts per hour through that injector.
When my injector pump failed on my Ford 172ci on a drill rig, (twice)oil level was normal at startup, some time during the day oil and fuel was pouring out of the valve cover. The motor continued to run swimming in fuel. I kept smelling raw fuel went up front to find it running out.
We didn't mess around with it to see what failed in the injector pump, took it to a shop, you know the rest of the story.
I missed this message somehow.

I called a shop in Toronto and the guy said it's possible that something inside the pump went bad and lots of fuel makes it into the cam area and then into the engine. He said it would be most likely a $1000-$2000 repair. :rofl: At some point I'll just swallow the bitter pill and do it, hopefully then get lots of use out of the tractor.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 12:43 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 12:00 pm
DavidBarkey wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:51 am If it was leaking past anyone of the plungers it would not build pressure and that cylinder would not fire and since you said it ran fine I would eliminate that .
I don't about running fine though. Listen to the same model tractor that I found on youtube, sounds to me more smooth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YI9rtOIF5g&t=70s



Whereas mine sounds like tar-tar-tar-tar

Maybe that's a sign that fuel delivery or pressure wasn't right anyway.

( the other tractor is at a higher RPM and that will change the sound a lot , Now not perfect , yours definitely on all cylinders . )
Dave




I don't have experience with diesel engines so I'm not sure if it sounds like it's got a problem or not.

What just accrued to me is if one of the injector pumps had backed out a little when someone in the past doing a repair that required removing the lines and did not properly re-torque them . Fuel would be able to leak from from the fuel passage to the shaft area . From what I can see each pump is seal at the bottom by clamping force. This type of leak could still alow the injector to function .
I can try to re-torque them, yes.

Other possibility is that at some point the was water in the system that froze and there is a crack internal , but i would expect that if that was the case there would have been other damage .
I think before going any further , A- drain some oil off and see if it has water in it or is just thin and smells of diesel , B- If it is water go down that path , if it is thinned out by diesel go to step C.
If there was water or coolant in the oil, shouldn't the oil have been bubbly/cloudy after it ran? A buddy of mine had a boat whose engine wasn't properly winterized so the manifold cracked and there was water in the oil. We didn't know right away, so we tried to run it, started for a few seconds and then died. But the oil was cloudy/gray.

Not allways , if it has not been emulsified with the oil (milky) , it can sit at the bottom of the pan . and not be picked up by the oil pump
depending on how far the sump is off the bottom of the pan ( all engines a little different ).

Dave
C- remove the lines from injector pump and make sure all nuts are free . release the clamps and crack loose each injector slightly to make sure move freely enough and re-torque down to spec. re-assemble, chain oil again ( don't worry about the filter just drain it and put back on ) and call me to come over and give you a hand bleeding the injectors .

Maybe mark the pumps before so you know if any tighten down more than they were .

Dave
Will try the re-torque. But can't run it at all, as i'm missing those parts for the fuel return line and waiting for them, plus the feed pump. I'm going to take the injectors to a shop in Toronto to have them looked at and if needed fix/clean them.
Ok let me know when you are ready . Bleeding injectors on a larger diesel like that is easier with 2 people and I can then show you how to do by yourself in case you run her out of fuel one day .

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:40 pm
by propane1
More guessing and rambling. If you watch the exhaust coming out of the pipe, while running, which I was hoping for a shot of in the video, if it’s missing it should show up in the pattern of the black exhaust coming out.
And was mentioned before but don’t know if there was an answer. Let the engine sit for a few days, then open the drain in the base and see what comes out at the very first. If water or coolant, you’ve got trouble there. If not then it would be diesel fuel. And how much is added to the oil when you check it and it’s over full.
And I’m still sticking with the guess I posted before. :109

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:43 pm
by Timj
Darn it Eugen, we've been trying to find you a cheap way out. :(( :cuss: :headbash:

The old injector pump on my father's old Ford 4500 backhoe kept going even when leaking fuel. First slow, he would just change the oil more often. Then it let go and filled the crankcase in an hour. The tractor always kinda loped and smoked when it ran. Our Ford's sound different anyway, being 3 cylinder engines.
He stopped by me the other day on his way out of the woods. ( He's been cutting wood, by himself, 82 years old :dizzy: ) Anyway, the thing sounds like a new tractor, no smoke, even when you rev it. It's an early '70's hoe that had been used hard before we got it.
I think you got a little time to explore some options for cost. :inacall: It seems like the one from my drill was quite expensive to rebuild years ago. I don't know if it is truly justified or not, but it seems anything diesel is pricey. I don't know how the market is by you, but here them older backhoes bring pretty good money. So if you go to sell it when you're done with it you can maybe still come out ok. :please:
It's a gamble, but maybe you could find a used one there. That pump seems quite popular, but also a ton of models.
:smash: :smash:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:37 pm
by Eugen
Propane57 wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:40 pm More guessing and rambling. If you watch the exhaust coming out of the pipe, while running, which I was hoping for a shot of in the video, if it’s missing it should show up in the pattern of the black exhaust coming out.
And was mentioned before but don’t know if there was an answer. Let the engine sit for a few days, then open the drain in the base and see what comes out at the very first. If water or coolant, you’ve got trouble there. If not then it would be diesel fuel. And how much is added to the oil when you check it and it’s over full.
And I’m still sticking with the guess I posted before. :109

Noel
Noel, sorry, I thought I said it is pretty much white smoke all the time coming out of the pipe. I'll check in a few days what comes out first. I got the idea of getting automotive dye to put in the fuel for next time I can start it and trace it with a UV light. Now I'm stuck until those parts show up so I can button it back up for another test. I'm kinda hoping it's diesel in the oil, because I'm not prepared to deal with a cracked engine or a blown gasket that leaks coolant into the engine.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:47 pm
by Eugen
@Timj I hope to be like your dad when I'm 82! It's great that he keeps in such shape. As for a cheap way out, I appreciate your advice guys. It's good to be able to talk about this stuff. As long as I don't end up with a big paper weight and a huge hole in the bank it should be fine. :cheers:


@DavidBarkey thanks Dave!

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 6:34 am
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen The UV dye is a great idea , hadn't thought of that . Short runs and check until you find where is coming from .

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 7:28 am
by propane1
Well a little more guessing, rambling and I might be learning some thing. :giggle:

The white smoke is unburned fuel, coolant in the cylinder/s and low combustion temperature. And I think you did say white smoke along the way Eugen. But wether white or black smoke I was thinking you could see that in the exhaust smoke or hear it, if it was missing in one cylinder.
But what I was wondering is, if you let the engine sit for a few days, open the drain plug and slowly let out some base liquid, is there and coolant that comes out first, before the oil comes out. Did you try that, if so, what was the result.

Tell me to go away if I’m annoying yas. :124:

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 8:28 am
by DavidBarkey
Propane57 wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 7:28 am Well a little more guessing, rambling and I might be learning some thing. :giggle:

The white smoke is unburned fuel, coolant in the cylinder/s and low combustion temperature. And I think you did say white smoke along the way Eugen. But wether white or black smoke I was thinking you could see that in the exhaust smoke or hear it, if it was missing in one cylinder.
But what I was wondering is, if you let the engine sit for a few days, open the drain plug and slowly let out some base liquid, is there and coolant that comes out first, before the oil comes out. Did you try that, if so, what was the result.

Tell me to go away if I’m annoying yas. :124:

Noel
When I suspect coolant I do the same but use a pressure tester to pressurize the system . The hardest part of all this is being on the other side of text message. It is a whole lot different when your in person .

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 8:32 am
by Spike188
Thinking like the Egyptians, Drain all of the crankcase fluid into gallon glass jars and let them set for a day. That would give a clear reading of types and percentage of contaminates in the oil.

40 years ago a hydraulic line on a cotton bale press broke and dumped around 100 gallon of oil into a 10' X 4' deep pit that the ram hung inside. This was in the middle of the night at peak of processing season. The closest oil supplier was 4 hours away so shop vacs were used to lift the oil from the pit. Most of the 100 gallon of contaminated oil was recovered and filtered through a rag. Total down time was less than 2 hours. That oil was running in the press 10 years later when the plant closed. Operators had a habit of running the press ram out of the cylinder and damaging the seals so at the end of 10 years there would have been little of the original oil in the system.

Spike

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:23 am
by Eugen
@Propane57 and @Spike188 I will drain the oil this Saturday and put some in jars. I don't have gallon glass jars though. :| Well, we'll see.


@Propane57 Noel, it's not annoying to me that you give me your opinion, in fact I really appreciate it!!! If I were closer to you guys you would get some beers from me! :cheers:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 10:52 am
by propane1
Thanks Eugen. You could go to the PEI Liquor commission web site and get me gift card. :rofl: :rofl: :78: :78: :69: :giggle:
And I’m sure you could do the same for the other fellas too. :rofl: :clap: :clap: :D

Just kidding, just kidding hehe :78: :D
Have a good day Eugen.

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:36 am
by Eugen
I don't think you're joking. Someone just sent me all of you guys home addresses! What kind of magic is that?! :O

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:00 pm
by Timj
Eugen wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:36 am I don't think you're joking. Someone just sent me all of you guys home addresses! What kind of magic is that?! :O
Oh no! :114: we're all going to be getting hate mail and a bill for causing emotional distress. :D

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:23 pm
by Eugen
Worse Tim! I'm gonna send you all Christmas cards! :rofl:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:02 pm
by DavidBarkey
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 10:47 pm
by Eugen
Gathering tools and parts. Got a black light gadget from Amazon today, made Jeff Bezos a little richer. I think it works good.

A couple of lines with a highlighter that are almost invisible without the UV light.



https://vimeo.com/678987552

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:46 am
by Eugen
After sitting for a little more than a week, I pulled the oil pan plug and drained about a gallon of fluid. If there was water or coolant in the oil it should have been at the very bottom and come out first, but there wasn't any. What came out looked like oil. This confirms that if theres anything that fills up the crankcase is either hydraulic fluid or diesel. We already established that it can't really be hydraulic fluid, as I can't see a way it can get into the crankcase on this tractor. So it must be diesel then.

Got some UV dye from Partsource, as they were the only store to have some in stock. $12 for two little vials, each 1/4 oz. Put one in the diesel fuel, but am not able to crank the engine yet, as the feed pump and injectors are off. The tee for the return fuel from the injectors is supposed to arrive in early March, so until then I'll just play the harmonica and look at the bright blue sky. :violin:

Here's the oil after 24h of sitting in a plastic bottle. No separation of fluids, so no water/coolant there.
IMG_6436.JPG

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:15 am
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:46 am After sitting for a little more than a week, I pulled the oil pan plug and drained about a gallon of fluid. If there was water or coolant in the oil it should have been at the very bottom and come out first, but there wasn't any. What came out looked like oil. This confirms that if theres anything that fills up the crankcase is either hydraulic fluid or diesel. We already established that it can't really be hydraulic fluid, as I can't see a way it can get into the crankcase on this tractor. So it must be diesel then.

Got some UV dye from Partsource, as they were the only store to have some in stock. $12 for two little vials, each 1/4 oz. Put one in the diesel fuel, but am not able to crank the engine yet, as the feed pump and injectors are off. The tee for the return fuel from the injectors is supposed to arrive in early March, so until then I'll just play the harmonica and look at the bright blue sky. :violin:

Here's the oil after 24h of sitting in a plastic bottle. No separation of fluids, so no water/coolant there.

IMG_6436.JPG
Well that is good to know . You can still continue diag . Put the transfer pump back on. Remove the injector lines from the pump. Remove locking clamps , and make sure injector pumps are seated properly . Leave the injectors out (will turn over easier ). Put some pieces of hose over the injector pumps and into a can . With die in fuel ( you may want to premix in fuel and pull directly from that container to be sure ) crank over engine just until die is seen coming from injector pump hoses . Pull the transfer pump and see if it looks like die is coming from back of it or inside the injector pump. At least you will know what to tackle first . Don't forget to recharge the battery .
If you need to borrow anything to do this , you know where I am .

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:59 am
by Eugen
Yeah, it's quite a relief that I don't need to deal with a cracked water manifold or blown gasket.

I was planning to do exactly what you said here. Need to find some hose of the right size to pull over the injector lines and gather the fuel into a jar when cranking. And another hose to fit tight into the transfer pump so that it draws dyed diesel from a container. Fun fun fun :D

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 4:33 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:59 am Yeah, it's quite a relief that I don't need to deal with a cracked water manifold or blown gasket.

I was planning to do exactly what you said here. Need to find some hose of the right size to pull over the injector lines and gather the fuel into a jar when cranking. And another hose to fit tight into the transfer pump so that it draws dyed diesel from a container. Fun fun fun :D
I have some clear hose that might fit . What size is the diameter of the treads in the injector pumps ?

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:19 pm
by Eugen
Hm.. No idea Dave :(

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:58 am
by Eugen
I am slowly gathering parts for this tractor.

The feed pump arrived and it seems a pretty good copy of the original.

IMG_6454.jpg

List of parts that arrived and waiting to be installed:

1. Feed pump
2. Oil filter
3. Air filter
4. Primary and secondary fuel filters
5. Air brake hose/line
6. Injection pump seal kit
7. Crankshaft/fan/alternator belts

Can't believe I found Continental belts for $3 each at RockAuto in the clearance section!!! when they cost around $50 elsewhere. :O

Still haven't decided wether to get a rebuild kit for the alternator or just buy a new one. I've measured the stator wires and they seem fine, about 0.4 ohms each winding and no short to the case. The rotor also test fine for continuity. So the rebuild kit, which includes new brushes, regulator, diodes, bearings might work just fine.


But the major issue remains the fuel in the crankcase and for that I need time to work on diagnostic, which I don't have right now. :( oh well, patience patience patience :| :pullhair:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 11:12 am
by DavidBarkey
If it will come apart , rebuild it . We can turn the commutator her quickly if it needs it .
Patients are for doctors, when in dought swear at it under your breath .

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 11:35 am
by Timj
DavidBarkey wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 11:12 am If it will come apart , rebuild it . We can turn the commutator her quickly if it needs it .
Patients are for doctors, when in dought swear at it under your breath .

Dave
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 11:49 am
by Eugen
Dave!!! What's the key to decrypt what you're saying? :rofl: secret code? :D

Seriously now, I have taken the alternator apart already, and put it in the dishwasher already :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: yep, :whip: did not catch me do it :clap:


Need to find a way/time to take the injectors to that Toronto shop for an overhaul. And find a diamond mine on the way too, the guy said 150 per injector if parts need replaced :109: :headbash:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 11:59 am
by propane1
Should have a female emoji with a rolling pin.
:giggle:
And I swear at things out loud. When nobody’s around. :78:

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:12 pm
by Eugen
Propane57 wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 11:59 am Should have a female emoji with a rolling pin.
:giggle:
And I swear at things out loud. When nobody’s around. :78:

Noel
yes we need that

:rofl:

Screen Shot 2022-02-28 at 12.11.31.png

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:02 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 11:49 am Dave!!! What's the key to decrypt what you're saying? :rofl: secret code? :D

Seriously now, I have taken the alternator apart already, and put it in the dishwasher already :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: yep, :whip: did not catch me do it :clap:


Need to find a way/time to take the injectors to that Toronto shop for an overhaul. And find a diamond mine on the way too, the guy said 150 per injector if parts need replaced :109: :headbash:
:rofl:
Maybe wait on the injector until get the rest sorted out and run a heavy dose of seafoam though them . A lot of times they just dirty .

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:04 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:12 pm
Propane57 wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 11:59 am Should have a female emoji with a rolling pin.
:giggle:
And I swear at things out loud. When nobody’s around. :78:

Noel
yes we need that

:rofl:


Screen Shot 2022-02-28 at 12.11.31.png
She looks like an Olga .
:rofl: :rofl:
Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:04 pm
by propane1
This one is even scarier. :giggle:

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:05 pm
by DavidBarkey
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:37 pm
by Eugen
Propane57 wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 11:59 am Should have a female emoji with a rolling pin.
:giggle:
And I swear at things out loud. When nobody’s around. :78:

Noel
@Propane57 how about this :wife:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:33 pm
by propane1
:wife: Perfect. :giggle:

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:25 pm
by DavidBarkey
Propane57 wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:33 pm :wife: Perfect. :giggle:

Noel
I second that . :rofl: curlers and all .

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:39 am
by Eugen
A small update. Took the injectors to a diesel repair shop in Toronto and they tested and adjusted them.

Have decided to wait with the leak test until the injectors are back in the tractor, as I think the leak test would not work well if there was nothing for the pump to get to high pressure.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:20 pm
by propane1
Any farther along fixing the Case 680E Eugen ? Just wondering. :hm:


Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 7:24 am
by Eugen
Propane57 wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:20 pm Any farther along fixing the Case 680E Eugen ? Just wondering. :hm:


Noel
Plate full and could find no time to work on it :109: :65:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 1:59 pm
by Eugen
Small update. Re-installed the injectors and had couple of leaks on the fuel return fittings.

5C96C8FC-F18B-423F-A59D-4D54C8D58D67.jpeg
080C818D-C677-4E82-BAA6-1F0FCD75DD4C.jpeg

Need to replace with new T fittings.

0A8037FB-700C-40B1-BAB5-515BD12F8B11.png

Nowhere to find locally so more delay.


Had a nasty leak right where the hydraulic pump gets supply through the thick hose. Added a couple of clamps for now until I can find a replacement hose.

AEB7CAD4-81BD-48B3-974F-1483256B2F0C.jpeg

Obviously I'm dying of impatience to run it and see if fuel gets into the engine oil again, but this just can't be done yet.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 7:03 pm
by Eugen
When it comes to patience I have to admit it's not one of my strong points. I suppose that's why they call it a virtue.

Took off the whole fuel return assembly from the top of the injectors. The whole thing is four T fittings, compression nuts on each side with 5/16 steel tubes in between. The compression nut pushes onto a rubbery grommet which swells up and seals off the connection to the tube. Undone the leaky ones and put them back together making sure they're not threaded crookedly. That seemed to make a good grommet to tube connection, more rigid than before. Put the assembly back on and carefully threaded the bottom nuts that connect the top of the injectors to the down stem of the T fitting, which also uses a rubbery grommet. Three of the T fittings were nice and tight, the fourth was turning past the end. And not after I forced it, me thinks. So I resorted to some use some hairs of rough garden rope like they used in the old days in plumbing. That was enough to be able to tighten the nut enough as to not leak. It's not a long lasting solution but it'll do for the test I need to run and see if/how diesel makes it into the engine. New fitting, some grommets, and a fee compression nuts have been ordered.

Turned the tractor on and it started on the first crank. No fuel leaks anywhere around the fuel return assembly.this time.

Didn't keep it running long because 1 the oil still had fuel in it and two the alternator is not in on account that it needed some fixing. It's a 24V alternator and I found that the Field tab has been broken off. To fix that I carved into the white ceramic like material around the stub that was left from the broken tab. Carved enough to be able to solder a piece of wire there. Without the alternator the belts don't turn the water pump so no cooling.

Put the alternator back on, changed the oil and gave it a go. Yay, the alternator produces 25V! Nice.

Ran the tractor for about 5 minutes. The oil level did no go up. Maybe it's too early to celebrate, I'll run it some more tomorrow. But I'm hopeful. It'd be nice not to have to take the injection pump off.

Maybe the real leak was from the fuel pump and it's fixed with the new pump I had put in. :please:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 7:40 pm
by propane1
Great news Eugen.


Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 7:40 pm
by Spike188
I will shout for you @Eugen :thumbsup:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 8:04 pm
by Chad
Glad to hear!

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 6:42 am
by DavidBarkey
Here's hoping bud. :54: :please:

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 3:38 pm
by Eugen
What kind of world do we live in?! :violin: Human beings are so puzzling sometimes.

This morning at 6:41 I get a text message on my phone, from a number I did not recognize: "Hey good morning, how's did you get the machine running the way you wanted it?"

Had no idea who that was, so I asked "what machine?" "The backhoe" he says. Turns out the guy I got the backhoe from is asking me if I got it all fixed and if I want to sell it back to him. I told him what I fixed and what I still think it may be the problem, and he says if I'm thinking of selling to tell him.

Am I the only one to think this is kinda strange? I told him it's going to be sold when I get my job done with it. :45:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 4:24 pm
by propane1
Lots of odd people in the world Eugen.


Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 8:12 pm
by Chad
That's a strange request Eugen. I have had people ask me to send a photo or video when I get whatever item I purchased from them running or fixed, but never a covert request to sell it back!?

Why not just ask "hey, I'd like to keep this machine, but can someone fix it for me?"

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Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 9:25 pm
by Timj
:106: :40: so he new it wasn't right. :hm:
Sure I'll sell it back to you when I'm done with it :$$: :$$: $$$$$.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 11:14 pm
by Eugen
As I said, very puzzling to me. On the one hand, how could he not notice that after running the tractor for 5 minutes the crankcase is full of fluid and pouring out, the alternator wasn't charging, and the hydraulic fluid was continuously leaking. He just said nothing's wrong with the tractor, just a little blow by and the air brakes need a little work because a hose loses air. And I told him today all the problems I found, he didn't seem surprised. I don't know, only God knows what he knew.

I ran the tractor a few more times yesterday and today, seems to me the oil level stays put for now.

What that guy said to be a "little blow by" is quite a lot to me. White smoke coming out of the crankcase breather. The problem with these old tractors is that the breather ends out in the air, right below the engine, not far from the cabin. So a lot of that smoke makes it into the cabin. I've done some searches and people seem to be divided in two camps, one that's not concerned about the blow by, and the other that is. Not sure what to do about it, but if it doesn't hurt the tractor maybe I'll just use it as is, and redirect all that smoke elsewhere.

There's at least one hydraulic hose that bleeds pretty badly, so it needs some fixing.Then save money for diesel so I can start digging! :bee:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 6:38 am
by Spike188
@Eugen In my opinion, blow by can signal that oil is also being burned. We had one farm tractor that burned a quart every 8 hours of operation, almost from the day it was new. The blow by and consumption never changed. Around 1974 my uncles talked about the blow by and oil consumption when the hour meter showed over 10,000 hours. That tractor was a Minneapolis Moline 5 Star purchased new in 1960 and served as the row crop cultivating tractor. It did get a engine rebuild sometime in the 80's and is still in the family.

Spike

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 12:37 pm
by Eugen
It's good to hear you guys that blow by should not be a major concern (yet). I feel pretty confident now also that the diesel in crankcase problem has been solved. I've run the tractor again and again, and the oil level did not go up.

Next: one of the hoses (4' long and what seems to be JIC fittings on the ends) to the bucket was leaking badly, and had a few bulging spots. Quick trip to the local hydraulic shop and 100 nuggets lighter, hose is in the truck. Seemed to me a little expensive, but then I don't have an informed opinion on this.

Boom cylinder leaks pretty heavily, now that's going to be a bit of an adventure to get off. Then take it to the shop and lose more weight from the pocket area ($$). :D

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 1:17 pm
by MattA
Eugen wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 12:37 pm Next: one of the hoses (4' long and what seems to be JIC fittings on the ends) to the bucket was leaking badly, and had a few bulging spots. Quick trip to the local hydraulic shop and 100 nuggets lighter, hose is in the truck. Seemed to me a little expensive, but then I don't have an informed opinion on this.

Boom cylinder leaks pretty heavily, now that's going to be a bit of an adventure to get off. Then take it to the shop and lose more weight from the pocket area ($$). :D
I had a case drain line made for my later model 4016 because the early model return line I mistakenly bought had a different size fitting. Set me back I think $45-50. Seemed expensive to me. Later I found out Ingersoll sold a kit with the line, quick connects, mounting brackets and connector caps for about $50 and the line wouldn't have been 18" too long :headbash:

Glad your making progress on this project :cheers:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 10:21 pm
by Eugen
@MattA oh no! They say it's a rule that on the way home you'll always find a better price and whatever you just bought when you were out. :109: Did you stay with that hose or in the end got the one from Ingersoll?


The new hose went in and voila, no leaks in either ends. Fine. Next I got a little break from the kids, after work today, and thought I try to take the pins out that keep the dipper cylinder in place. Because that cylinder leaks under pressure between the gland and the rod like a faucet. The problem I faced was that the pins are tensioned in any position the hoe is. Extended the hoe parallel to the ground, tensioned. Put the boom high up, same thing. :hm:

So I'm doing this without experience working on heavy equipment like a large backhoe like this. The giant snap rings on the pins were a pain to get off too with my puny snap ring pliers. But eventually they came off in one piece.

I managed to position the boom all the way back and the dipper curled in completely, in such way that the lower pin seemed a little less tensioned, and proceeded to pound it with a heavier mallet and another 2" pin I had from something else. Little by little the pin was coming out, but as soon as it was out the dipper curled more in and caught the pin I was using to drive the original one out. Bummer! :cuss: Now go get the 644 and hope it can lift the bucket and dipper enough. But the 644 was not in a good mood on account of the battery being drained. LIke no problem comes alone, the positive lead cable to the battery also developed some bad contact. Quickly fix that, go with the 644 to the bigger brother, lift its bucket and dipper a little and move the stuck pin. Had to move fast :bee: because soon the kids need to be readied for bed.

Floated the boom down until the bucket rested on the ground, and got up on the ladder to deal with the upper pin. Which, I might add, is about 15' up. My neighbours probably enjoyed the circus routine :51: I provided with one foot on the cap of the ladder an one foot on the top of the boom cylinder. And bam -bam-bam goes the mallet and pin, bam-bam-bam. Sweating buckets up there. Eventually the pin came out and yes, again my driving pin got stuck but with a piece of ash branch wiggling the rod of the cylinder in question things freed up and I declared victory, free of injury even. :thumbsup:

This is how I left it in place, just sitting on the lower "ears".

4D7C7AD0-6EE3-46EE-AFFC-13A790F08B59.jpeg
And me thinks, if they charged me a hundred silver coins for a 48" hose, what it'll cost to rebuild this 4.5" thick and 48" long cylinder? I did ask them for an estimate :writing: and they said "no way to know it might be hard to open it up and the price depends on that". Uh, ok. My guess is 300 to 500. :| :51:

And so the saga continues, with another exciting episode when maybe I try to do the cylinder myself. :pullhair: :wave3:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 11:02 pm
by Timj
We did the same cylinder on my 555 backhoe a couple of winters ago. It came apart pretty easily, and wasn't hard or complicated to rebuild.
If you can get the end unscrewed with out a fight, you have it made. :please:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 11:18 pm
by Eugen
Timj wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 11:02 pm We did the same cylinder on my 555 backhoe a couple of winters ago. It came apart pretty easily, and wasn't hard or complicated to rebuild.
If you can get the end unscrewed with out a fight, you have it made. :please:
Apparently I need this wrench which I don't have

9DF1FD55-77A8-4A16-AADD-C4EE23C762A2.jpeg

And a 3/4 breaker bar which I also don't have. But do I like buying tools? :D yes!


How did you undo the big nut on the end of the rod?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 12:10 am
by thebuildist
I have a big 18 or 20" adjustable wrench from Harbor Freight, and I did this to it:
homemade-adjustable-pin-wrench.png
I thought it would be hard to drill the vanadium steel, but the drill press didn't even struggle.

I use it primarily as a regular wrench, but it now has the pin wrench function too.


Bob

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 12:16 am
by Spike188
cylinder teardown.jpg
This was the method on a smaller one I did. The one manual suggest some of the cylinder end cap torques to 100 ft/lbs and the ram nut at 225 ft/lbs

Spike

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 6:54 am
by Jancoe
When I was rebuilding some cylinders on the 6018bh I also struggled with removing a couple cylinders on the backhoe. One pin in particular was not giving in. I feel your pain. I was lucky that my ball joint separator tool just barely fit on the framework of the bh. Alot of penetrating oil and a few days of cursing and it finally popped. I then could not get the gland nut to loosen. Me not knowing any better I tried some heat on the gland and it still would not loosen. I gave up on it and took the cylinder in to a hydraulic shop where he educated me on it and now I know not to ever put heat to a hydro cylinder and also take it in to him if I have trouble. He only charged me $50 to rebuild it. I had the rebuild kit for him that I got from one of the dealers. He said he would use it but next time he said not to order an oem kit as there is newer updated better seals out on the market. I also replaced all the backhoe hoses at that time, approximately 3 years ago. They only costed me around $300 for all of them. They were just 1/4" and some of them were 12 foot long. I ordered them through discounthydraulichose.com. is there an online place in Canada that could help you out?Image

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Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 7:53 am
by DavidBarkey
Here is a tip for you guys who want to rebuild a cylinder with a gland nut like these . After the hoses are off and before you remove the pins . While the machine is holding the cylinder firm for you break loose the gland nut oil it good working back and forth. Now when you get it off you don't have to fight with the gland nut and try and hold the cylinder tube at the same time . NEVER clamp down on the tube to hold it , use the pin end to keep from rotating and a soft clamp around to tube to keep in place . Now , do to space restraint this does not work all the time . A rebuild bench can be made from a piece of I beam on it's side with blocks of wood to support the cylinder . A frame at the one end to allow for a pin to go though the Eye of the cylinder and hold it in place(mimic the machine) . If it is longer than the over all length of the cylinder . It can be use with a come along to pull the rod and piston from the cylinder when gland nut is undone . As some of you have found out , than can be difficult to do some times . Hope this helps .

Dave

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 8:40 am
by Timj
We extended the boom of the hoe out almost flat and supported it on a pile of cribbing near the pivot point. The gland nut was loosened before the top pin was removed. We made a crude pin wrench years ago from some plate steel, probably would have been cheaper to buy one when you figure the time. The cylinder was supported on a block of wood and the rod removed. The cylinder was left on the tractor.

We supported the rod in a pipe stand, put heavy bar through the pin hole to the floor, then removed the nut with 3/4" socket and breaker bar.
It went well, but I can see where it could become a fight. Good luck!

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 8:43 am
by propane1
As my father always said. It has to be solid, to do any work on any thing. Wether is metal or wood. You can’t have any bounce in the piece your working on. Just my thought.


Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 11:22 am
by Eugen
Guys, thanks so much for your input!!! :worship:


After considering all options, the cylinder goes to the shop and it's a bullet I decided to take.

After some more ladder and ratchet strap action (which should show how sorry I am for not getting those chain hoists from the local marketplace when I could) the cylinder made it to the truck.

C5486BC6-71EE-4A1D-978B-FC2BADAEA495.jpeg

EC6A300F-62E1-4C26-A761-289FC07F695B.jpeg

1DF3656C-FAA8-4091-915F-F5603D306A4C.jpeg

6E4B9F12-E6B7-4B86-8A09-8FA12B13B0A6.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 7:51 pm
by JSinMO
Eugen wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:22 am Guys, thanks so much for your input!!! :worship:


After considering all options, the cylinder goes to the shop and it's a bullet I decided to take.

After some more ladder and ratchet strap action (which should show how sorry I am for not getting those chain hoists from the local marketplace when I could) the cylinder made it to the truck.


C5486BC6-71EE-4A1D-978B-FC2BADAEA495.jpeg



EC6A300F-62E1-4C26-A761-289FC07F695B.jpeg



1DF3656C-FAA8-4091-915F-F5603D306A4C.jpeg



6E4B9F12-E6B7-4B86-8A09-8FA12B13B0A6.jpeg
I was reading the previous post on this, pretty interesting!
I know your doing a fair amount of labor, but it sounds like you’ll have a solid machine when your done. I hope you plan to get a lot of seat time before you sell it on, if you sell it on!
I think I would lose the previous owners number! If you go to sell it I’m sure you won’t have a problem finding buyers!

Can’t wait to see it out working!

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 11:20 am
by Eugen
JSinMO wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:51 pm
I was reading the previous post on this, pretty interesting!
I know your doing a fair amount of labor, but it sounds like you’ll have a solid machine when your done. I hope you plan to get a lot of seat time before you sell it on, if you sell it on!
I think I would lose the previous owners number! If you go to sell it I’m sure you won’t have a problem finding buyers!

Can’t wait to see it out working!
Thank you Jeff, indeed I got this backhoe because of definite work I need done, and figured I'd save some money doing it myself. There are a bunch of stumps that need to be dug out, and a few more dead ash trees on their way to become stumps. We might be a new septic tank, and maybe the trench dug for a footing.

In all seriousness, at some point I got a little worried that this machine would end up a BIG paper weight, but now I'm more hopeful that it will actually be usable.

The plan is to sell it after it earns its keep. If we lived on a larger area I would have loved to keep the backhoe. Unfortunately that is not possible, long term.

But, one thing at a time, and I'm looking forward to do some work with it.

I am now also doing some work on the air hoses that come out of the air tank, some leaks there too, and the net effect is that the brakes are on pretty much all the time. :109:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 11:38 am
by propane1
Be a great machine when your done fixing it up. :thumbsup:


Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 9:46 am
by Eugen
Replacement air hose that goes from the air tank to the brake pedals inside the cabin. The original was in terrible shape. $17 delivered to the door. Made in USA :usa: . I like it!

ECA5BE22-3D53-457B-B402-7E19C9A80769.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 6:35 pm
by Eugen
Found a little time to put the new air hose today.

Also replaced a few more parts on the diesel return line. Funny how well it held the rope wool on the threads of one fitting. No leaks whatsoever. Still, new fittings and grommets are better in the long term.

CB527BA0-09E8-409F-B2E6-F319A963CA85.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 7:18 pm
by JSinMO
Gotta love new parts!

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 7:18 pm
by Eugen
JSinMO wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:18 pm Gotta love new parts!
It is a great feeling to get and then install new parts. Like breathing new life into the machine!

Today I picked up the cylinder, exactly two weeks from the day it was dropped at the hydraulic shop. It's a battle for another day however impatient I am looking forward to put it back in. We had two scorched days, yesterday and today. Summer came unannounced. :gift:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:47 pm
by Eugen
A little more progress. Yesterday I was able to steal a little time and hitched the cylinder up with the chain hoist. Wasn't that hard, but I was being careful and deliberately slow. It's a heavy cylinder and can be dangerous handling it alone.


Looks like they fought the cylinder a little, at the shop. Battle scar here.

45694194-3207-48EB-9E5E-B6E5DC95DFC3.jpeg
Going back where it came from, little by little.
A0106AAD-05A4-43B1-A9F9-434615561FCC.jpeg
No time to put the pins in, left it so until this evening.
92FC3994-5D7E-4063-9D94-BC21A7756BE2.jpeg
The plan was to try and put the pins in today after work. Aligning the holes is not an easy task because the dipper slouched in after removing the cylinder. But the 644 came to the rescue and pulled on the bucket until the holes were aligned. Upper pin first.

D222BDBF-CCAF-4A1C-A573-D663B4A55C6D.jpeg

Had to pull the boom back completely. Then in goes the pin. Lots of wiggling and realigning with a crowbar and other tools.

Sometimes no matter how careful you are you screw up. Turns out the lower pin was too short! :headbash: because it should have been in the upper position of the boom! :cuss: Luckily it was not so bad to pull them out and set things right.


All in all it took about three hours. Here it is, not that exciting a picture for most, but for me it is the picture of a fixed hoe and I am pleased within that.

32881D9C-60CF-49D5-BEF8-06DA10B99F01.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 11:27 pm
by Timj
:cheers: nice job Eugen, glad to see you got it back together. Not an easy job by yourself. :smash: slow and careful is the way to go with the big stuff. :highfive:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:49 am
by Chad
Hey way to go! Perseverance and taking your time (carefully) as you go is the key for sure. Nice to have that fixed!

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:00 am
by DavidBarkey
:thumbsup:All in all it took about three hours. Here it is, not that exciting a picture for most, but for me it is the picture of a fixed hoe and I am pleased within that. :worship:
After all , a good hoe is fixed hoe . :rofl: :clap:
Soon to be digging some holes .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:25 am
by Spike188
@Eugen the cylinder end looks like you made the correct call by sending it out for repair. I had one on the D100 that was done by others because the end cap would not turn loose.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:24 am
by Eugen
Spike188 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:25 am @Eugen the cylinder end looks like you made the correct call by sending it out for repair. I had one on the D100 that was done by others because the end cap would not turn loose.
I agree @Spike188 . They said it wasn't particularly difficult for them, normal for old cylinders not to open up easily, so they had to give it some torch. For me would've probably been a nightmare. Isn't that a general thing in life, to pay for less pain? :) holds true this time.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 8:57 pm
by JSinMO
Just wanted to chime in with the others! Looks like a job well done! I think it’s exciting anytime a machine comes back to life, keep the pictures coming!

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:21 am
by Eugen
What do you all think, time for a new air filter? :hm: :109: :bee:


AEAC8061-07BA-47B5-A53A-A7B7801C04E3.jpeg


Look at the size of this thing :O


57190D27-9C4C-46D3-943E-BC48C6A31FBD.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:22 am
by JSinMO
Looks like it’s been doing it’s job. Sure wouldn’t hurt to throw a new one in.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:47 am
by Eugen
That's right Jeff. Date stamp on it says June 1989. A fresh new filter is in.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:38 am
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:47 am That's right Jeff. Date stamp on it says June 1989. A fresh new filter is in.
wow

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 3:26 pm
by Timj
Hopefully it sat on a shelf somewhere for a long time before it was installed. :40:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 6:13 pm
by Eugen
It can dig!

59A5EED1-C6D2-4C01-90E2-4129F5DC7FD8.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 6:59 pm
by propane1
:thumbsup: :phew: :69: :congrats:
Great job Eugen

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:31 pm
by Spike188
Woot! Your going to have a root ball with that machine.

Spike

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:37 pm
by Chad
Awesome! Well done, nice to have it being put to work!

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:50 pm
by JSinMO
Great news! The hard work paid off, now you can have some fun digging holes!

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:11 pm
by Eugen
Thank you guys! One out. That big one behind the boom is next, but it's calling for rain in the next few days so no digging.


7D89AFC6-A054-4132-ADE8-75C23FBCACCE.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:40 pm
by Timj
Them stumps are anchored in pretty good. :fight: That's a good sized hoe and will get the job done. Must feel good to be digging. :highfive:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:17 am
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:11 pm Thank you guys! One out. That big one behind the boom is next, but it's calling for rain in the next few days so no digging.



7D89AFC6-A054-4132-ADE8-75C23FBCACCE.jpeg
Ya but that rain will soften the clay and hopefully make it easier to get that big one out .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:00 am
by Harry
That tractor can do some serious work and damage if your not careful. Enjoy the work Eugen! :cool:

Keep the Peace :cop:
Harry

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:52 pm
by Eugen

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:20 pm
by propane1
Works great. Thanks for the video.


Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:46 pm
by Timj
:122: :69: :thumbsup: :highfive: whoo hoo IKO Excavating Inc. is in business! Nice job :cheers:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:18 pm
by MattA
Looks like fun Eugen :thumbsup:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 10:02 pm
by JSinMO
Good video! Sure looks like the work you put into the tractor paid off!

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:32 pm
by Eugen
Thanks guys, it's nice to get encouraged.

This thread is getting to be pretty long so I won't blame anyone for forgetting how I was wondering at the very beginning how the backhoe engine sounded rough. Other issues took priority, like the diesel in oil, leaky cylinder and hoses. Had the injectors done too for good measure. A few smaller things too, like the breaks.

This monster has no lack of power. It lifts the tractor like nothing when it gets snagged on a stump. Yet, it felt to me still like the engine could be smoother. So I adjusted the injection pump timing from this

A5A80269-A7DC-49E2-BB04-F51C522F1BCC.jpeg

to this


879780A5-0785-4501-A6F7-6DE3D7E6CEA0.jpeg


Made no difference. I wondered from the beginning if it might be running in three cylinders and as much as I hated to find out, I had to.

Cracked the injector lines one by one while idling. Idling got a lot worse when cracking lines on cylinders 1, 2, and 3, but no change whatsoever on 4. This can explain some of that white smoke and oil through the breather.

At this point one sits down and considers why one cylinder doesn't go boom. The major culprits ought to be no compression or no fuel mist. I opened the valve cover and checked the rockers for signs of trouble on cyl 4 valves but there was nothing unusual. While there I adjusted all the valve clearances to cold spec, 0.015 intake and 0.025 exhaust.

Can you see a compression test in my future? :giggle:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:25 pm
by propane1
We’re you advancing the timing or retarding it Eugen. Just wondering. Doubt that it would make any difference in number 4 cylinder.


Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:01 pm
by Eugen
Was trying to set them right like in the manual.

0806098C-EA91-4598-90EE-78110FF5073C.jpeg
78AFDA89-A88A-4BB4-A7F7-C061DAEA80E2.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:03 pm
by DavidBarkey
Diesel compression testers are a different animal than gas engines and are expensive . But in some cases you can fab one up with a high pressure hydraulic gauge inline check valve hp hydraulic hose and npt hydraulic fitting to go in where glow plug goes .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:11 pm
by MattA
When it's fixed you will have 33% more power :thumbsup:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:27 pm
by Eugen
Gotta see the silver lining here @MattA or else I go insane. :giggle:

@DavidBarkey yeah, I've been looking for one. Worse, this machine has no glow plugs and the injectors are pencil type, so they require a certain harder to find adapter for a compression test. I think I found one and yes $$$.

Though what's the chance that the head doesn't have to come off, at the very least? Pretty much zero. It's either rings or valves. So then, why bother with a compression test? :hm:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:14 am
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen I can't remember . Did you get the injectors rebuilt ? The other thing besides compression is the injector pump . This unit uses the mechanical pressure to over come the injector . #4 pump segment my not be producing enough pressure to overcome the injector .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:54 am
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:14 am @Eugen I can't remember . Did you get the injectors rebuilt ? The other thing besides compression is the injector pump . This unit uses the mechanical pressure to over come the injector . #4 pump segment my not be producing enough pressure to overcome the injector .
Yes, injectors were done at the shop in Toronto. I wish I could switch the pump lines but they are steel. Easy to switch the injectors but the tractor was running like this before too, plus the injectors were out and calibrated. One thing the compression test can do is confirm the problem is with the injection pump.

If I could find a fitting to connect a 5000 psi dial to the pump I could see if that is the problem. The injector opens up at 3200 psi as per spec.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:42 am
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:54 am
DavidBarkey wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:14 am @Eugen I can't remember . Did you get the injectors rebuilt ? The other thing besides compression is the injector pump . This unit uses the mechanical pressure to over come the injector . #4 pump segment my not be producing enough pressure to overcome the injector .
Yes, injectors were done at the shop in Toronto. I wish I could switch the pump lines but they are steel. Easy to switch the injectors but the tractor was running like this before too, plus the injectors were out and calibrated. One thing the compression test can do is confirm the problem is with the injection pump.

If I could find a fitting to connect a 5000 psi dial to the pump I could see if that is the problem. The injector opens up at 3200 psi as per spec.

It would be easier to test the injector pump than compression . At that point you can do all 4 to see where you sit . When you were working on the transfer pump did you pull the side cover off and access the pump cam condition ?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:07 am
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:42 am It would be easier to test the injector pump than compression . At that point you can do all 4 to see where you sit . When you were working on the transfer pump did you pull the side cover off and access the pump cam condition ?
I did take the side cover off but could see nothing out of the ordinary.

If I had the right fitting to connect a dial to the pump I could test the pressure. I think it's compression fitting on the pump side but not sure. The gauge is probably 1/4 npt.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:17 am
by Eugen
As I don't have a way of hooking up the pressure gauge to the injection pump, I'm thinking of a different way to test cylinder 4 of the pump, like this: hooking up injector number 4 to the line, but upside down, that is, pointing up in the air, instead of into the engine, run the engine for a little bit, and observe the spray pattern. Here's where I lack experience, but for a diesel cylinder not to fire at all because of poor pressure or bad injector, I would expect to see some pretty poor spray pattern from the injector, right?

What do you guys think?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:28 am
by Eugen
Well, it's amazing what you find on the internet. Here's a blurb relating why it's a bad idea to hook up a gauge directly to one of the injection pump's outputs:
Injector pumps are positive-displacement things, so you absolutely must have a way for the diesel to get out. If you stuck the gauge directly to the end of the line you'd break something. Probably the gauge, but no guarantees it won't ruin the pump. You cannot tee-in to the fuel line either. Besides the lines being too stiff for you to make room for the tee, the volume of that line is calibrated. Changing it will throw off the pressure your fuel pump develops when injecting, so your measurements will be meaningless. If the pump cannot develop enough pressure to run the injectors due to wear you'll have hell even starting the engine. But that shouldn't ever happen unless it's been fed bad fuel. Your pressure is controlled by the injector needle, not the pump--it just builds pressure until that needle gives. Before pulling the pump what you need to do is bench-test your injectors as another poster described. Or test them in the engine: If your problem is rough running from a single bad cylinder, then with the engine running, crack each fuel line loose (one at a time) and see if diesel fuel is spilling out to make sure that cylinder is getting fuel. Crack it at the injector end, so you don't wind up letting an air bubble into the fuel line. You may even let out an air bubble in there already. Also listen to the engine, if there is no change to the engine sound/RPM when you crack it, or you start with a loud hammering sound that goes away when you crack the line, you've isolated the bad cylinder. Swap that injector with any other injector in that engine and run the test again. If your problem moved when you moved the injector, the injector is bad--replace or rebuild it. If the problem stayed in that cylinder, then you either have a problem in the pump or you have a mechanical problem, like a valve setting. Do the usual mechanical checks on the engine. If the engine's good, it's the pump. Once you narrow it down, you can decide what to do. Checking the pump's performance any further requires some hideously expensive equipment and is done off the engine. If you find a problem with the pump you might as well pull it and take it to a pump shop for a rebuild.

But, my idea of hooking up the injector upside down, seems like it's not bad. Here's another blurb found on the net:
I have worked in a fuel pump shop for 15 years diesel pumps really work on volume of fuel depends on load and speed ,if your motor starts and runs / idle smooth the pump is in pretty good mechanical condition if it is hard to start hot or cold and the motor is in good condition ,compression , timing etc the pump elements are worn out through dirty fuel a simple test to check pump elements remove an injector from motor and turn it up side down replace it back on the injector pipe (don't worry about the return pipe let it flow to the floor /container ) crank the motor over and watch the spray patten (in the run position ) KEEP HANDS AND BODY AWAY FROM DIESEL SPRAY , DIESEL IN YOUR BLOOD STREAM YOU DIE QUICKLY the spray should be an atomize spray ( not like an oil can) to check for a miss undo one injector pipe at a time if you find a miss swap the injector to an other cylinder and see if the miss follows the injector the best thing to do is remove the pump and have it tested on a test bench and reset to the test data

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:48 am
by Timj
What's the problem, you don't need 4 cylinders, my Ford only has three and works just fine. :rofl: well works fine except for the starter solenoid that burned up on the job last week. :pullhair: really fun fixing stuff out on the job. :dizzy: it's always something.
:writing: doing your homework :thumbsup: you'll get it figured out. Keep your chin up. :highfive:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:47 pm
by DavidBarkey
@Eugenhttps://www.princessauto.com/en/adjusta ... 1000000778
something like this mounted between a guage and the pump with the releaf plumb in to a catch can . Then you could see what the unit is capable of. the inject is basicly a releaf valve

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:25 pm
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:47 pm @Eugenhttps://www.princessauto.com/en/adjustable-reli ... 1000000778
something like this mounted between a guage and the pump with the releaf plumb in to a catch can . Then you could see what the unit is capable of. the inject is basicly a releaf valve
Thanks Dave, I gotta squeeze my little brain a little here. So if I get this valve, then adapters/fittings to couple the gauge to this and to the output of the injection pump, and possible high pressure hose, it's gonna be some headache figuring it all out. It's an interesting exercise, but I wonder if it's worth it; it'll cost at least $100. Found a diesel compression tester kit that I think fits this tractor, for $156 CAD delivered to the door. I'm leaning more to getting the compression tester. :hm:

@Timj that's right, who needs a stinkin' forth cylinder when three already do the job?! :D :geek: but when time comes to sell it it'll sound better running all four. Plus one of the wheels isn't going round and round :spin: as it should, it's probably connected to that cylinder! :cuss: he he! By the way, I'm using a P100 half face 3M mask when operating the backhoe. Can't stand that smoke. :headbash:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:09 pm
by propane1
Just drill a hole in the head Eugen. Install a spark plug. Run gasoline to it. Have a monetary switch in the cab. So you can fire the cylinder, when needed. Problem solved.


Aren’t I some helpful, hmmmm.

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:16 am
by Eugen
Propane57 wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:09 pm Just drill a hole in the head Eugen. Install a spark plug. Run gasoline to it. Have a monetary switch in the cab. So you can fire the cylinder, when needed. Problem solved.


Aren’t I some helpful, hmmmm.

Noel
Great idea Noel!!! This means you tell me I should do a compression test first right? :geek: Yessir! I wouldn't want to do all that work to put a spark plug in and not have enough compression right?

Oh, but look what the cat dragged in! :O

7D2C9834-59E5-485F-B955-716B89D10C80.jpeg
789DB81B-FD1F-4D30-97EC-2BA84B6AA942.jpeg
97B77C27-56B7-4623-AD99-EC3541B4C398.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:57 am
by propane1
Nice kit. Heavens no, I don’t want to put you through all that work first before you do the test Eugen. :D
If you need any more helpful ideas, just let me know. :giggle:


Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:10 am
by Spike188
@Eugen that kit makes me want to add another tool to my box. Then I will kind of remember there was one, but did it get loaned out, or which box is it in, or did it ever exist.

I did that with an industrial Hobart welder yesterday. I remembered it as a 600 volt 3 phase. Looked on the net for a 208 v, single phase, then took a stroll though the yard and untarped said unit. It would have been used a couple of times this winter if only....

Too many tools in the toy box.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:18 am
by Eugen
@Propane57 keep the ideas and rambling coming! :) It's all welcome!


@Spike188 no need to buy this kit, you can always borrow mine if we meet in Toronto. Mind you, after this backhoe is gone I probably won't need it, but it fill a clear purpose right now. I'll see if I can do the test this evening after work, and then I'll know for sure there's a gremlin in the engine. :109:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:48 pm
by DavidBarkey
When you are done with it . I would like to rent it for a day . I have two small diesels I want to do .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:51 pm
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:48 pm When you are done with it . I would like to rent it for a day . I have two small diesels I want to do .
Of course. Not renting Dave, you can just use it. :wave2: :cheers:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:27 pm
by Spike188
@Eugen I was just kidding out needing a test kit. @DavidBarkey has more need for it than me.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:30 pm
by Eugen
Cylinder 1, zero compression. :highfive:

Burnt valve?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:30 pm
by Spike188
valve, hole in piston, or head gasket. I would rig up airline to cylinder with piston at bottom of stroke. That would have both valves closed. If air discharges from oil fill port it is a piston issue, if from exhaust then exhaust valve, if from intake then intake valve, if rad water bubbles head gasket.

Also check the compression on the other three for a benchmark before tearing down. It would give you an indication of how far into the engine you want to go. This may be a sleeved engine so doing a single hole might be an option.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:59 pm
by propane1
Eugen wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:30 pm Cylinder 1, zero compression. :highfive:

Burnt valve?
Zero compression. Jumpins that’s not good. Valve would have to be wide open and burnt I’d say. Just guessing. But there’s a big problem some where. Hole in piston.

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:05 pm
by propane1
Other thing could be piston split in half at one of the rings. Normally at the oil ring. So the top half of the piston is at top dead centre, and the bottom half is moving up and down. Zero compression in that situation.


Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:21 pm
by Eugen
They who said hole in piston might be totally right. Took a short video through the injector hole with a bore scope cam I had around, while turning the engine so the piston would go down. Not sure if there's a hole but it looks pretty banged up.



https://vimeo.com/720912735





Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:10 am
by Eugen
Guys, thank you for the good advice! @Spike188 it's not easy for me to do a blowing air test now because I dug out the buried power cable going to the shed so, no power for the compressor. :( :headbash:

I had the bore scope and hoped to see something relevant with it.

I'm pretty sure the head's got to come off and then I'll know for sure what's what.

However, I'd rather do that after I get the work for the addition done, as that's the real priority and time sensitive too. Can't think of a big downside doing some more work with the backhoe as is, do you?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:50 am
by Spike188
That is how the fuel was getting into the oil. What would be wrong with removing the injector and returning the fuel to tank. The problem created might be galling the piston to the sleeve and breaking a rod due to lack of lube. Will there be enough oil sling to keep the sleeve lubed. Would plugging the breather force enough oil past the piston to keep it lubed?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:45 am
by DavidBarkey
Looks like the side of the piston has gone to parts unknown . If that is the case as it looks to be . I would remove the injector . redirect the fuel back to the return lines disabling that cylinder for now . install a "breather " in place of the injector . this will keep a lot of the pressure off the crankcase . keep rpms to a minimum ass with a dead cylinder you are out ballance power wise . Take it easy and get you work done . Then it can be sold as is or delt with. Bring me the injector and I can machine a breather tube to go in there .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:01 am
by propane1
That’s not lookin good Eugen. That’s to bad.


Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:08 am
by FUTZ
That's a pretty good image from the borescope. What brand or resolution is it? I bought a DeWalt unit tens years ago and returned it because I couldn't make out any images; I bet they have improved a fair bit since then.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:36 am
by Eugen
FUTZ wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:08 am That's a pretty good image from the borescope. What brand or resolution is it? I bought a DeWalt unit tens years ago and returned it because I couldn't make out any images; I bet they have improved a fair bit since then.
This one, got it more than a year ago from amazon

TAOPE Wireless WiFi Endoscope, Waterproof Flexible Borescope Inspection Camera 2.0 Megapixels for Android and iOS Smartphone, iPhone, Samsung, iPad https://a.co/d/btNvoug

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:07 am
by Eugen
Yeah, I'm thinking along the same lines as you guys. It's really good to have you chime in. The idea of piping the injector line in to the return I like, though finding the right hose might prove difficult.

Leaving the injector hole open as a "breather" is easier done, as I can use the adapter from the compression test as an outlet for a hose.

Good point about the imbalance on the crankshaft when running on three cylinders @DavidBarkey.

@Spike188 It is indeed a sleeved engine, and found kits for one, or more pistons, some kits are complete with all gaskets, some not.


Hope this could be done without pulling the engine out, as that's definitely not something I would want. In fact my hope is that I could replace the sleeve and piston without pulling the crankshaft out. Don't know if that's possible though. :writing:

Anyway, it helps me to write here what I do with this backhoe, as well as as to get feedback from you guys, but I am aware that I might be annoying some or all of you with a discussion about a tractor that is not a Case garden tractor. My personal preference about this forum is that people should feel comfortable to share anything they want, just like you would do in the presence of a bunch of friends. Of course, not losing sight that we still talk about Case garden tractors. Please feel free to share your thoughts.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:09 am
by Eugen
I found a picture of what the piston should look like, which makes much more sense about what I've seen through the bore scope. There are indents for the valves, and some sort of hole with a cone in the middle.

Screen Shot 2022-06-16 at 10.37.16.png

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:20 pm
by propane1
Don’t bother me any Eugen. It’s all interesting to me. And doesn’t matter what size tractor it is or what the topic is. Sure some post I find more interesting than others. But we are all like that. Posting something keeps the site going, the way I see it.
Have a good day gentlemen.


Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:09 pm
by JSinMO
Well that certainly is an unpleasant thing to find in your engine. I’d be scared to know how long the previous owner ran it like that.

I’ve never tried to run on three cylinders before, but if you rerouted the fuel line as stated what would happen if you squirted some oil into that cylinder to give the top end some lubrication when you run it?
I don’t know if it would make any difference at this point.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:04 pm
by propane1
Great post JSinMO. I was thinking the same thing.

One thing is for sure, you don’t want that piston to seize and break the rod or what ever. Maybe run a line from the cylinder to the cab and have an squirt can of oil, and put a few drops of oil in every now and then.

But, there are vehicles on the road today that shut off cylinders when cruising. Don’t really know how they lube those when not firing. Maybe they don’t have too. ?

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:20 pm
by Spike188
Model A and T Ford flat heads could be run on 2 cylinders using the other 2 cylinders as air compressors.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thr ... r.1014976/

Uncles talked about it but I have never seen one.

I suspect that the 680E will have enough blow by to keep the cylinder lubed. You will know how much blow by happens as soon as you start the engine.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:01 pm
by Eugen
Guys, I've been thinking about what you all said. Considering that this engine has been running like this for a while, and worse, with tons of diesel thinning the engine oil too, it'll probably be fine for a little while yet, 'til I dig a few more holes. I don't think the piston needs detonation to get lubed. In fact there's so much oil pushed up in the valve cover and up the breather tube, I'd be surprised if this piston isn't constantly drenched in oil.

I'll be more careful about reving the engine, which I had done a few times when the stump was stubborn. It'd be nice to find a way to stop injecting diesel into this cylinder.

The compression on the other ones was:
cylinder 3 dry: 250 psi
cylinder 3 wet: 360 psi
cylinder 4 dry: 300 psi
cylinder 2 dry: 290 psi


@Spike188 that's really cool, never heard of that, but it why not? For a compressor the imbalance on the crankshaft may not matter as much, it doesn't need to run at really high rpm.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:42 am
by propane1
Farmall tractors had a kit to use one cylinder as a air compressor.


Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:57 pm
by MattA
@eugene Keep at it and you will have a great backhoe when your done 👍

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:17 pm
by Spike188
@Eugen let me offer a word of caution about parts for Case tractors listed on the internet. In 2020 we pulled the G188 engine out of 630 Case after seeing complete Piston, rings, and gasket sets advertised in multiple places on the internet. When the pistons were removed and inspected they were found to be wore out. 0.100" slap in the upper ring glove and the OD was very undersized. The first two orders were place for parts with a return response of "parts no longer available". It turns out that the parts had been out of production for 10 years. The tractor had huge sentimental value to family and one of the great grandsons took on the task of following up leads from Bill Eshelman. A farmer in New York State found and supplied oversize rings, valves, guides, and gaskets. In spite of the pistons fitting the cylinders like a quart jar in a gallon jug we put as many new parts into the overhaul as could be found.

The moral of the story is do not believe everything advertised as available, place and order or call to confirm.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:15 pm
by JSinMO
John Saeli may be able to help you with parts. He is in New York state and deals only in Case parts. I’ve done business with him a couple of time now on my 830 and he has been very helpful. It’s just him and his wife running the business. I think he deals mostly with the older ag tractors, but he may be able to help you or know who can get good parts for an industrial model.

https://www.saeliimplement.com/product- ... s-gaskets/
His number is listed on his website.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:00 pm
by Spike188
@JSinMO John Saeli is who bailed us out on the 630 Case. I spent a long time visiting with his wife while he was planting wheat.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:00 pm
by Eugen
Thank you guys!! Great advice and I will heed it. :thumbsup:

This engine in this machine is the 336BD which seems to be used in a few other machines, I'm hoping that gives a greater chance to find parts. Apparently there are two types sleeves that have been used, and for the kit you must specify which you want, but I have no idea which type is in my engine. :writing:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:28 pm
by Eugen
Ordered this gland wrench on July 4th, never came. Ordered it again from a different vendor, the wrong one came, too small.

FCA1B2D0-F821-4813-B397-790ED97F0555.jpeg


Let's hope the third time they get it right.

A few other things also just didn't come, maybe amazon is getting tired or something. You get your refund but the time lost is lost. First world problems... :blush:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:15 pm
by DavidBarkey
I know your pain . I have had stuff "lost " so they refunded . then it shows up 2 months later out of the blue . By that time long since don't need it anymore .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:16 pm
by DavidBarkey
I know your pain . I have had stuff "lost " so they refunded . then it shows up 2 months later out of the blue . By that time long since don't need it anymore .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:25 pm
by Eugen
Got the gland wrench for a few days now but as much as I was burning to try it, we got the bad storm with a lot of rain, and yesterday, first dry day, just had too much stuff to do. Today though, in my lunch break, had a chance to give it a try. The pin holes in the gland top looked like someone has been working on it already. Which maybe explains why it was so easy to undo.


https://vimeo.com/736908403





Must've put at most 20 ft-lb on the wrecker bar, and it started to go. I mean, I only wanted to test the fit.

One thing to say about the tool though. The tool pins already have marks on them! :cuss: -- from the tiny force to undo the gland. What are they made of, copper?! :headbash:

The original design of this tool seems to be OTC, but the one I got is a copy, one of many copies you can find on amazon. The OTC is $$, of course, and I was considering getting it, but it too has some reviews where it says the material isn't very strong. Oh well, looks like at least I'll be able to get this cylinder undone without too much trouble. Remains to be seen if it that's true. This must be delayed though, as I have to make a couple of holes for the septic system design calculations.

What to do about it? Send it back for a refund? But then how do I get the work done? Or try and harden the pins and ends of the tool with the torch and cold water? Or replace the pins with drill ends?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:55 pm
by Timj
:please: turned easy enough, :122: :69: :69: :thumbsup: :clap: that's a big relief.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:44 am
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen Glad to see it was not much of a fight for you . If someone has been in there before , make me wound why it is leaking . Did they not fix right ? Is there damage to the shaft causing seal failure ? Or started , but never finished ? All good things to look for before reassembly .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:11 am
by Eugen
Took the day off my job and tackled that leaky cylinder. Last time I tried to undo the gland I said it started to screw out easy. Today I thought I'd just use the 1/2 inch drive 18 inches long breaker bar. Haha! Did not budge. Out came the 30 inches wrecker bar and the 3/4 drive head. After quite a few turns it see med the gland stopped coming out. Figured it was their end of the threads. But seemed really tight on, wasn't able to pull it back. Left the rod pinned on the backhoe and punched out the pin on the other side. Then hooked up a tow strap to the cylinder, positioned some wood pieces so that it would both pull straight out and when separated it would fall on soft surface. Then backed up the truck slowly and pulled the cylinder off the rod. Caught most of the oil from inside but stills made quite a mess.

Looking at it from the car before backing up.
11937A16-3764-4D9F-800A-20D77C3E4038.jpeg
Separated rod from cylinder.
73105DAB-0E02-4D28-BCB9-31F736BA0452.jpeg
Then I lifted the rod end up to tackle the big bolt on the end. People have stories about this bolt being tight and hard to get off. It takes a 1-7/8 socket. The Milwaukee impact just ticked it. Put the 3/4 drive head on and tried to turn it with a 1" thick 6 feet long wrecker bar. It was just bending. Then I heated up the rod end and the bolt head with a plumber propane torch. Must've done the trick because the big wrecker bar opened it after it was hot.

These were the tools.
C3C2ECDD-5EFC-4D8D-8578-755767DB62E7.jpeg
Relieved to see the big bolt out.
292CE850-BFFA-4CFA-97FD-F8E12DFC0C55.jpeg
Then I noticed this damage on the piston.
20FC4474-394E-429F-B91A-8A29578987AE.jpeg
Took the seals off.
CA70160D-8CEF-4227-85A4-3736E014481A.jpeg
FF4E94B5-FB83-4A03-B19A-BD069783D69F.jpeg
Thought about it but cannot see how it could be caused by my doing.

Took the seals and interior bearing off the gland. There was quite some corrosion there, did my best to clean it up.
DF931815-783F-4CBB-86E5-EA46ACBFA3F0.jpeg
6B781CAF-5990-4CB5-B388-E594C7E5673E.jpeg
My theory is that someone before me did work on this cylinder and did not clean up the interior of the gland, therefore even with new seals this was leaky. The damage on the piston I can't see how it would affect leaking oil to the exterior.

Can I put it back together now? No. Waiting for the seal kit. Why didn't I order it before? Well, I did, but I got the wrong parts. This cylinder comes in two versions, one piece piston and two piece piston. Tried hard to find the cylinder identifier number but could not make any of the character because off corrosion. My guess was that it was a two piece cylinder and a cheap kit and free shipping from Israel showed up on eBay so I bought it and it arrived today. Well, I guessed wrong. :|

Ordered the right kit from all states ag parts. As my dear :wife: likes to tell me "sometimes you win and other times you learn " :D today I learned.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 4:09 am
by thebuildist
I hate to be the one to say it but...

I think you probably need a new piston. I think that distortion of those seals is going to prevent them from getting a good seal to the inner side of the cylinder.

Here's hoping I'm wrong.

I see you've already thought this through and you're right I don't see how this part leaking would cause fluid to come out externally through the gland. But it does seem like it will reduce the cylinders strength.

Bob

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 7:02 am
by DavidBarkey
Check oriantation of the piston damage to the cylinder . That kind of damage only come from one thing . A dent in the tube of the cylinder . That dent will need to be worked out and the cylinder honed so does not tare up new seals . You may get lucky and most of it was pushed and warn away . Take light and look down the cylinder to see where it was rubbing .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:03 am
by Eugen
@thebuildist I think the piston grooves can be fixed on the lathe so they're not narrower at the dent. I'm more worried about what @DavidBarkey said about the cylinder. A dent in the cylinder is not going to be easily fixed. I will check today but most likely that's the case. :109:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:33 am
by Timj
Eugen wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:03 am @thebuildist I think the piston grooves can be fixed on the lathe so they're not narrower at the dent. I'm more worried about what @DavidBarkey said about the cylinder. A dent in the cylinder is not going to be easily fixed. I will check today but most likely that's the case. :109:
I agree Eugen, clean it up so the new seals fit right. A little bypass internally will only take away a little force.
A good look inside like Dave said :42:
:highfive:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:40 am
by Eugen
Dave was right, I can see a little indentation on the inside waaay far fr the opening. The fact that it's not big may be the silver lining here. The piston has three grooves. The grooves on the ends of the piston host what they call bearings, a tough band which is actually split by design. They cannot seal, so I think their purpose is to keep the rod true within the cylinder. The middle one is the real seal, and that doesn't seem to have real damage. It's comprised of a square profile of very rubbery material on the inner side of the groove and the yellow band of tougher material on top of it.

EA7B4956-6858-4EA7-BE2F-CB69A29CA188.jpeg

My hope is that it will not damage the actual seal over time. Will have to align the dent in the cylinder with the dent on the piston when it goes back together.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:29 am
by Spike188
This is thinking outside the cylinder. Ha ha you thought I would say box. Risking barrel shrinkage. Welding a bolt the the dent and pulling it. Preferably a cold pull or heating to pull. Another method would be a pipe expander modified to reach the dent. Use a pipe expander and heat the dent area. This method would allow for a light duty expander, ie harbor freight or princes to be modified for one time use.
The cheapest repair might be ordering seamless pipe, the cutting the barrel pin and fitting off of the damaged cylinder. It would require having the seal end machined and threaded.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:34 am
by Spike188
This is thinking outside the cylinder. Ha ha you thought I would say box. Risking barrel shrinkage, welding a bolt to the dent and pulling it. Preferably a cold pull but heating the area would make the required force needed for the pull. Also the heat could be localized to control where the stretch would occur.

Another method would be a pipe expander modified to reach the dent. Use a pipe expander and heat the dent area. This method would allow for a light duty expander, ie harbor freight or princes to be modified for one time use.

The cheapest repair might be ordering seamless pipe, the cutting the barrel pin and fitting off of the damaged cylinder. It would require having the seal end machined and threaded.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:38 pm
by Eugen
Hm.. good ideas here! This pipe expander goes to 4" but collects are aluminum. If the dent would be heated cherry red this might work right? Or put a piece of large diameter steel pipe on the aluminum collet. Which I don't have.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:17 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:38 pm Hm.. good ideas here! This pipe expander goes to 4" but collects are aluminum. If the dent would be heated cherry red this might work right? Or put a piece of large diameter steel pipe on the aluminum collet. Which I don't have.
what is the bore size ? heat with a steel pipe sleeve over an expander . The sleeve will need a slit in it and some way of holding on the expander so it comes back out all together . Preset stops for the right distance down the tube . A way of holding the expander from turning and pulling it back out . depending on how far down it is you may need a extra long 1/2" drive extention . I have a 3' one you can borrow . You will need to have the expander above the dent and quickly slide into place when area is red hot . you will not have much time between red hot and to cool to work . When the dent is pushed back then it will need to be honed .
If not done , it will fail again .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:34 pm
by Eugen
It's 4 inch, the bore. I'm kicking myself for not getting those 4" steel pipe pieces I saw at the garbage at the university one day :headbash:

And what to hone it with. The dent is far about 3 feet down the cylinder. :rolleyes: :sigh:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:13 pm
by JSinMO
I can’t help you with the dent I’m reading this and learning. But what about this attached to a 4 foot rod to a drill to hone it?
DC9B37FA-FB0F-49A0-979D-FD6CDE02B837.png

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:43 pm
by Timj
JSinMO wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:13 pm I can’t help you with the dent I’m reading this and learning. But what about this attached to a 4 foot rod to a drill to hone it?DC9B37FA-FB0F-49A0-979D-FD6CDE02B837.png
I had thought about one of those hones, but other than a quick clean up, I think it would also enlarge the the entire diameter, and not take just the hump down. You would need some type of line bore.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:47 pm
by Timj
JSinMO wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:13 pm I can’t help you with the dent I’m reading this and learning. But what about this attached to a 4 foot rod to a drill to hone it?DC9B37FA-FB0F-49A0-979D-FD6CDE02B837.png
I had thought about one of those hones, but other than a quick clean up, I think it would also enlarge the the entire diameter, and not take just the hump down. You would need some type of line bore.
@Eugen is there damage to the outside of the cylinder that matches the inside?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 3:13 pm
by DavidBarkey
Timj wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:47 pm
JSinMO wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:13 pm I can’t help you with the dent I’m reading this and learning. But what about this attached to a 4 foot rod to a drill to hone it?DC9B37FA-FB0F-49A0-979D-FD6CDE02B837.png
I had thought about one of those hones, but other than a quick clean up, I think it would also enlarge the the entire diameter, and not take just the hump down. You would need some type of line bore.
@Eugen is there damage to the outside of the cylinder that matches the inside?
Must push out dent first then hone enough to clean up bore . A smooth bore is more important than a the size . The seals will forgive a little as long as the bore is smooth .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 3:45 pm
by Eugen
Timj wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:47 pm
JSinMO wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:13 pm I can’t help you with the dent I’m reading this and learning. But what about this attached to a 4 foot rod to a drill to hone it?DC9B37FA-FB0F-49A0-979D-FD6CDE02B837.png
I had thought about one of those hones, but other than a quick clean up, I think it would also enlarge the the entire diameter, and not take just the hump down. You would need some type of line bore.
@Eugen is there damage to the outside of the cylinder that matches the inside?
Yes, there's a dent on the outside too.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 3:52 pm
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 3:13 pm Must push out dent first then hone enough to clean up bore . A smooth bore is more important than a the size . The seals will forgive a little as long as the bore is smooth .
Yes, that's my point about the hone. I got an engine cylinder hone like Tim pointed to but I think it's too rough. I'm actually thinking the inner surface of the cylinder is smooth now, maybe just dented in. Or scratched by the piston. Maybe I'll try to look at it with the bore scope.

Maybe just reach in with a 2x4 with 600 grit sandpaper stapled to it and rub rub rub.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:08 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 3:52 pm
DavidBarkey wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 3:13 pm Must push out dent first then hone enough to clean up bore . A smooth bore is more important than a the size . The seals will forgive a little as long as the bore is smooth .
Yes, that's my point about the hone. I got an engine cylinder hone like Tim pointed to but I think it's too rough. I'm actually thinking the inner surface of the cylinder is smooth now, maybe just dented in. Or scratched by the piston. Maybe I'll try to look at it with the bore scope.

Maybe just reach in with a 2x4 with 600 grit sandpaper stapled to it and rub rub rub.
just get finer stones . Use the course quickly to make sure high spot s is gone then switch to fine stone to make sure you have nice surface . Unlike an engine you do not want a cross hatch . Nice smooth surface .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:49 pm
by thebuildist
The more I consider it, the more I think you might have had the right idea in the beginning: clean up the grooves in the original piston, put new seals in it, and put it all back together. It seems like the rod itself is locked from rotating, right? You already have a worn spot in the piston that corresponds to the out-of-round spot in the cylinder. If it were me, I think I'd 1. Clean up the grooves on the piston to give consistent width to the seals. 2. Use something like a palm sander or a DA air sander to sand down the worn/shiny spots on the piston, just enough to give it .010 clearance from the dented area. Just enough that it can slide past the dented area without further metal on metal galling. 3. Mount the piston on the rod, being sure it's rotated/clocked to its original position on the rod so that the sanded down spot lines up with the dent. 4. Install the new seals on the piston and gland. 5. Re-assemble.

I think if you go too far down the rabbit hole you run the chance of further damaging what is currently a damaged but useable part. I personally would be inclined to just smooth it a bit, put it back the way I found it, and see if it doesn't give 10 more years of acceptable service.

My 2 cents' worth.

Bob

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:49 pm
by Eugen
Bob, that train has left the station when you guys started with ideas on how to get the dent out! I think they call that peer pressure! :rofl:

So I cleaned up the grooves nicely on the lathe tonight.
F23A15E1-F8CC-44CE-9956-73EC4076C854.jpeg
Took a little inventory if what's needed:
  • Torch, check
  • Pipe expander, ordered
  • 4" steel pipe to wrap the aluminum colet of pipe expander, missing
Thought about what else do I have around that could be used in steady of the steel pipe? Behold
D37772A3-7D45-4DB1-B258-7B4200EF0A33.jpeg
It's almost 4" diameter, it's steel. Me thinks it's thick enough to protect the aluminum colet.

As for honing the interior, I think I'll shape the end of a 2x4 and staple some sand paper on it. :idea:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2022 6:50 am
by DavidBarkey
Piston looks good , That old tank should do it . Pull the shraider valve out of the top and fill with water . . That will push out any left over fart gas and make safe to cut apart .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2022 9:28 am
by Spike188
Bob made a great point about the rod and piston locked in position. It was not something I thought about and no matter what method is used that will not change.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:09 am
by Eugen
Spike188 wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 9:28 am Bob made a great point about the rod and piston locked in position. It was not something I thought about and no matter what method is used that will not change.
The dent on the piston and cylinder were aligned but I took the piston off the rod so if I don't fix the dent on the cylinder I'd have to align them perfectly again.

Had to take the piston off the rod to clean up the grooves. Now that we're going this route I may as well give a good try fixing the cylinder. A challenge that'll bring a good break to my otherwise boring life :))

Have another piece of good news. The NOS seal kits I got from Israel were so old that the seals that otherwise are supposed to be flexible crumbled at the littlest attempt to bend them on a mock install in the gland. Told the ebay seller the situation and he quickly gave me a refund even before asking for one. There are still honest people in the world and it's nice to see that.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:18 pm
by Eugen
A step closer. This is what the aluminum pipe expander looks like with the propane bottle sleeve on it. The inner black material is steel though.

2F2E60F4-9822-4CC3-85C5-AB73E0C3FD2C.jpeg
EDE24FDF-1EB7-4E30-8E9B-318EE34AEC34.jpeg

The propane bottle is quite thin, still I'm hoping it's enough to provide dent protection to the aluminum colet.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:50 pm
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen It will be more about protecting the aluminum from the heat from heating dent to push out and spreading out the load .
Now you need a way of holding the expander from turning when tightening and at the correct height in the cylinder .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:32 pm
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:50 pm Now you need a way of holding the expander from turning when tightening and at the correct height in the cylinder .
Yep

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:40 am
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:32 pm
DavidBarkey wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:50 pm Now you need a way of holding the expander from turning when tightening and at the correct height in the cylinder .
Yep
I am going to assume that the steel is hardened and tempered . So tapping it may not work , but may be able to weld a rod to the side of the top half . Note take the wedge nut out of the bottom and put some grease on it the wedge and the threads .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:57 am
by Eugen
@DavidBarkey I was able to tighten the expander right at the entrance of the tube, just enough as to touch the sides and have some friction. Then I used many 6 inch extensions to push the expander to the dent, having marked the extensions before. The friction between the expander and the tube was enough to allow me to tighten it more. I just meant to do a little mock up, but if I got so far, I whipped out the plumber acetylene torch and heated the spot, then put the impact wrench on and tightened it up as much as it could go. Obviously the plumber torch didn't get the tube red, so I don't think this put out the dent, but it seems to me it's a little better now.

I did get an idea though. To do this again, and while the expander is in there, hammer carefully around the dent with a hammer.

It turns out that my cylinder hone is actually a brake cylinder hone and is not big enough to do 4" diameter. Maybe I'll run to Canadian Tire see if they have a cylinder hone that can do 4". :inacall:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2022 12:40 am
by Eugen
Did another round of torch and pipe expander, this time with more force on the expander using a 1/2 inch drive breaker bar. I realized that the impact gun cannot put a lot of force on the 28mm socket within such a long extension. Also used a hammer around the dent after the pipe expander was super tight.

The dent can still be seen on the inside but much smaller to my eye.

Then I taped a 60 grit sandpaper to a long cardboard pipe with a wooden handle down the middle and proceeded to scrub around the dented area. Sort of like loading a musket movement. I could feel a little rougher surface in that area. After a while I switched to 220 grit.

Used a telescoping gauge to measure the bore size at the head of the tube and at the dent. Can't say it's a very precise measurement but the dent seems to be 0.034 inches in (0.864 mm). I call that acceptable. Will do my best to align the piston dent with the tube dent and install the new seals when they arrive. The ants are marching one by one... :D

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:53 am
by thebuildist
Ok, call me impressed. It seems you've gone about this a very logical and straightforward way, and as my British friends would say, "That's a result!"

Bob

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:01 pm
by Eugen
Thank you guys, for the kind words, and also for allowing me to document what I'm doing here. The truth is that I'd rather have this done here on our forum than on a forum belonging to someone else. This place feels more like home, and it's my hope that all of you find it that way too.

The correct and fresh seal kit arrived. Was curious what the service manual has to say about torquing the piston bolt. Well... they thought it's worth picturing the guy with a big breaker bar.
Screen Shot 2022-08-26 at 14.58.00.png

The torque specs eh? - a not too shabby 1000-1200 ft-lbs
Screen Shot 2022-08-25 at 15.20.55.png

That's gonna be fun. No, I don't have a torque wrench for that. :114:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:41 pm
by DavidBarkey
As the old timer said to me once when I asked how tight to do it . "Tighten er up till she strips , then back er off half a turn "

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:48 pm
by DavidBarkey
1000 ft lbs is only 200lbs at 5 feet.
5 foot bar with a 200 lb man on it , will stop moving when 100lbs are reached . @Eugen you might have to fill you pockets with lead weights though .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:48 pm
by Timj
DavidBarkey wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:41 pm As the old timer said to me once when I asked how tight to do it . "Tighten er up till she strips , then back er off half a turn "
When I was a teenager learning the business, we were still using alot of galvanized pipe. My Dad would tell me "tighten them fittings up good and tight or they'll leak". Then he would tell me "don't over tighten them, they'll leak ". Forty years later I still don't know the right amount. :106:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:39 pm
by Eugen
Was planning to put the cylinder back together tomorrow, but I don't do that well in the patience department and thought I could at least start today. The gland and piston were cleaned up well the days before. After work I washed the tube well on the inside with dishwashing detergent and a mop. Didn't want to risk any of the sand paper stuff to be in there. Dried it up with paper towels, blew some air in, and sprayed it with WD40. Didn't get to rust as I went right on to the next step.

Pinned the rod on the backhoe and set it on some wood in a position to have good leverage and minimize the chance of injury both to the rod and to myself

:51: see :51: do right? Knew the six feet long and one inch thick wrecker bar had to be used, just like the guy in the manual. Indeed, I weighed myself at 167.55 lbs, times 6 feet, would mean 1005.3 ft-lbs of torque. The bolt was greased as per the manual, and I have to say that it tightened nicely, until the bar was bending way too much, then I said done.
0C94F1C2-0FC8-49D1-AD6C-F0FA1FEC3CAB.jpeg
Happy with myself that it tightened up so nicely, went to get the gland. Ahm... wait a minute. That was one of those "oh no!" moments. The gland goes on the rod before the piston! That happens when you rush, right? Maybe to others it doesn't, but it did to me. Figured the bolt was freshly tightened so it wouldn't be too bad to undo. :109: Wrong! Back to the 6 feet bar and it wouldn't budge. In fact the end of the bar snapped and I got quite a good whack on my left palm. Frustrated somewhat, went and got the propane torch out, heated up the rod end, and then the bolt came undone just fine.

The rest wasn't so bad. Again, some pieces of 2x8 helped to hold the rod in place so I could muscle the tube on the piston carefully not to damage the seals. Maybe I was a little too paranoid about it and used a piston inserting sleeve to hold the seals tight until the tube went over them.

65BD254F-6806-4095-B128-144F69F3F2B8.jpeg
1FC389F4-BEFA-4704-A5D4-C843BC14587E.jpeg

Pin went in on the other side as well. The gland was surprisingly easy to screw in, almost all the way with just the 18 inch breaker bar. The very end got the 30" wrecker bar treatment and it got tightened in place decently but not too tight.

43C1593E-31D3-4CAB-951F-18916555BA9A.jpeg

Washers and then the snap rings went on then the hoses and was ready to test. Ran the tractor for a while, moved the boom up and down a few times, no leaks. Not sure that the hydraulic oil made it to the empty cylinder yet, so I can't say I'm a 100% sure it's fine, time will tell.

02DADDCB-13FE-4F5E-97D0-587E898C5B6E.jpeg

No tree hugger should ever tell me I run a diesel backhoe and so I don't care for the environment. Look at the effort I put in stopping one little oil leak. :rofl:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:49 pm
by Gordy
DavidBarkey wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:41 pm As the old timer said to me once when I asked how tight to do it . "Tighten er up till she strips , then back er off half a turn "
when I asked Grampa how tight it should be, He said "1/4 turn before snapping". :roll:

:cheers:
Gordy

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:57 pm
by Gordy
Timj wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:48 pm When I was a teenager learning the business, we were still using alot of galvanized pipe. My Dad would tell me "tighten them fittings up good and tight or they'll leak". Then he would tell me "don't over tighten them, they'll leak ". Forty years later I still don't know the right amount. :106:
Pressure testing on the pipeline, use a minimum of 4 wraps of teflon tape. Did many 8 hour tests at 1,000 to 2,000 PSI with no leaks :thumbsup:

:cheers:
Gordy

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 7:18 am
by DavidBarkey
Awesome . Glad to see you got it back together ok .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:23 am
by FUTZ
DavidBarkey wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:41 pm As the old timer said to me once when I asked how tight to do it . "Tighten er up till she strips , then back er off half a turn "
All you guys with German backgrounds, I thought you would just do it the German way "Gutentite!".

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:51 am
by Eugen
FUTZ wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:23 am
DavidBarkey wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:41 pm As the old timer said to me once when I asked how tight to do it . "Tighten er up till she strips , then back er off half a turn "
All you guys with German backgrounds, I thought you would just do it the German way "Gutentite!".
Ah, the German torque spec :rofl:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 9:50 am
by DavidBarkey
FUTZ wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:23 am
DavidBarkey wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:41 pm As the old timer said to me once when I asked how tight to do it . "Tighten er up till she strips , then back er off half a turn "
All you guys with German backgrounds, I thought you would just do it the German way "Gutentite!".
Just like a German virgin , Snicentite. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:36 am
by Eugen
This reminds me of something I was wondering about, why Permatex can be found everywhere but not Loctite? :hm:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:51 pm
by Chad
Great work Eugen! Quite the process but that machine gets better with every fix you do - cheers!

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 2:50 pm
by Eugen
You know how it goes, when you get something fixed and it's out of your mind, then the mind starts wondering about the next problem. I should say problems though, as there are many little things that would be good to take care off. One of them would be the coolant temperature gauge and sending unit; I've been keeping an eye on the coolant temp the good old way, stop the tractor, touch the radiator. I find it kinda strange that it doesn't get very hot, even after using it for 20-30 minutes. Is the water pump busted? the coolant flow blocked somewhere inside the radiator? More investigation needed.

The major item remains the piston with a hole. This repair involves draining the coolant and engine oil, removing the intake and exhaust manifolds, and everything else that's connected to them, and the oil pan. It's very tempting to replace the sleeves, pistons, and rings on the other cylinders too, but I haven't come to terms with that expense, amounting to almost $2000 CAD, for the parts. Just more stuff to sleep on, I guess.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 6:37 pm
by JSinMO
I certainly know what you mean. The list never ends.

You may have covered this already, but I’ll throw it out there. On your cooling system with a cold engine you could take the radiator cap off and see if the water is flowing. That would give you an idea if something is blocked. If the water pump was broken you’d know it. With the other things you have found on this thing I’m betting it’s either missing the thermostat or it’s stuck partially open. That would explain why it’s slow to warm up.

I guess you’ll know when you go to fix the piston. At least you’ve been able to use is to get some projects done.

I’m looking forward to your finding.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 8:40 pm
by DavidBarkey
Old equipment is a lot like your :wife: . The more $$$$ you spend on them the happier you are . :thumbsup:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:42 am
by Eugen
I haven't done any troubleshooting on this @JSinMO , thank you for these good ideas, I will do that next.

@DavidBarkey isn't that true? But then again, when you get married, it is said the two become one, so basically when you spend money on the :wife: you are spending on yourself really. :D Well, joking aside, I've been blessed this time, my wife isn't fond of yelling, pointing out faults, and that type of thing. She usually encourages me to buy quality tools instead of trying to cheap out on things as I seem to be inclined to do :)) Here's an example, when I told her I want to get this 644 that's all parts on account that I'll sell the running 644 and in the end we save about $2k, she said "sounds good, but let's not sell the running 644 before you make this new one all functional". She humbles me many times by how she looks out for me. She says, I'd rather have less money but see you don't break your back. :worship: :wife:

Hehe, ramble ramble..

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:55 pm
by propane1
Eugen wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:42 am I haven't done any troubleshooting on this @JSinMO , thank you for these good ideas, I will do that next.

@DavidBarkey isn't that true? But then again, when you get married, it is said the two become one, so basically when you spend money on the :wife: you are spending on yourself really. :D Well, joking aside, I've been blessed this time, my wife isn't fond of yelling, pointing out faults, and that type of thing. She usually encourages me to buy quality tools instead of trying to cheap out on things as I seem to be inclined to do :)) Here's an example, when I told her I want to get this 644 that's all parts on account that I'll sell the running 644 and in the end we save about $2k, she said "sounds good, but let's not sell the running 644 before you make this new one all functional". She humbles me many times by how she looks out for me. She says, I'd rather have less money but see you don't break your back. :worship: :wife:

Hehe, ramble ramble..

Sounds like you got one of the good ones Eugen.

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:39 pm
by Timj
Propane57 wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:55 pm
Eugen wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:42 am I haven't done any troubleshooting on this @JSinMO , thank you for these good ideas, I will do that next.

@DavidBarkey isn't that true? But then again, when you get married, it is said the two become one, so basically when you spend money on the :wife: you are spending on yourself really. :D Well, joking aside, I've been blessed this time, my wife isn't fond of yelling, pointing out faults, and that type of thing. She usually encourages me to buy quality tools instead of trying to cheap out on things as I seem to be inclined to do :)) Here's an example, when I told her I want to get this 644 that's all parts on account that I'll sell the running 644 and in the end we save about $2k, she said "sounds good, but let's not sell the running 644 before you make this new one all functional". She humbles me many times by how she looks out for me. She says, I'd rather have less money but see you don't break your back. :worship: :wife:

Hehe, ramble ramble..

Sounds like you got one of the good ones Eugen.

Noel
Sounds to me like she wants a 644 for herself. :5:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:04 pm
by Eugen
Timj wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:39 pm
Propane57 wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:55 pm
Sounds like you got one of the good ones Eugen.

Noel
Sounds to me like she wants a 644 for herself. :5:
Haha, maybe. She doesn't seem interested in riding any of the tractors. Yet she loves driving and when we first met she impressed me how she worked the clutch and shifter on that little Audi A3 Turbo she had :O. Maybe if I win the lottery and buy her a new Massey Ferguson. The only motorized tools she touches now are the truck and the leaf blower, she likes that machine.

@Propane57 :thumbsup:

Looking forward to the 644 ikea tractor that's hopefully coming on Monday. "Some assembly required."

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2022 11:32 pm
by Eugen
Had some adventures today with the backhoe.There's a handyman in our village who helped me with stuff, very nice guy. He calls me about a week ago, can I help with one of my tractors? Sure, I say. What needs to be done? A 4 feet deep trench about 100 feet long. One of his customers needs that done, and he's got a friend with tractors so. Got the big girl as ready as I could for today, and after my regular job I get to start it and go help the buddy. The left brake pedal was hissing like an alligator in heat and the brakes, of course, wouldn't disengage. Argh! - I thought. Just when you say to a buddy you'll be there, something suddenly brakes. Feel my way under the pedal and find one of the fittings of a hose going in the pedal was where the air leak happened. Piece of cake, right? Get the monkey wrench and tighten it, they say, it'll be fine, they say. As I tighten it a little, either I have Chuck Norris strength and am not aware of it, or the fitting was already tired and old like Larry King, because it just snapped. Oh yeah, now the fun starts. Sent text to buddy in Predator style "shit just happened" I'll be late, sorry! He comes over and we ponder what to do. Well, somehow my memory got juggled a bit and remembered I had such old hose with that same fitting, but it was cut in the middle. Well, that should be fine, let's plug both sides, on the original hose side where the fitting broke, by bending it over and tying it with a ring brace. Cut a piece from the other hose I found, plugged it the same way, with a ring, and screwed the fitting on the brake pedal. The idea is that if pressure builds in the system, the air brakes disengage, and I can drive the tractor to that guy place, we get the work done, presto. One pedal not functional, should be fine on the way home coming downhill, it's only a 16000 lbs beast. Worst case I put the bucket down and it'll stop.

What do you know, the fix worked and I was able to go and dig about 75 feet of the trench. Was in a great hurry to get home and didn't take any pictures. But I'm going there tomorrow most likely, and will take some pictures. :bee:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:08 am
by thebuildist
Who doesn't love some "Field expedient engineering"?

Nice job!

One minor point: 20 linear feet of 1 foot deep trench is a "favor". 100 linear feet of 4 foot deep trench is a "contract".

:rofl: :cool:

Bob

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:50 am
by Eugen
thebuildist wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:08 am One minor point: 20 linear feet of 1 foot deep trench is a "favor". 100 linear feet of 4 foot deep trench is a "contract".

:rofl: :cool:

Bob
You bring up an interesting point Bob. How do you equitably exchange help between friends? Do you go by dollar value for a job? Or the time spent? But then, time is money, they say. Another aspect is, does the friend also help you when you need it? Help also comes with all kinds of qualitative aspects. Some people help you half heartedly, and with strings attached, even when they don't say it, you feel it.

It's a little funny how I met this buddy of mine. We were looking for someone to put some drywall and finish it, paint it, and finish set half the bathroom tiles; the kids were small and I had other priorities, could not finish what I started. A guy came by, and hardly gave me an estimate after two weeks and I had to ask twice. Another guy sounded drunk on the phone. Others never returned my call. So this guy came, he gave me an estimate after he took a good look at what needed to be done, and the estimate was reasonable (cheap). He worked very conscientiously and did even more than I asked. He saw our situation and probably took mercy on us. Anyway, after that he helped me with some moving stuff when I needed, and was very willing to do that. In my books he's a good guy, and I'll help him no matter what, within my capabilities.

What can I say, I'm no Donald Trump when it comes to the art of the deal. I would suck at business! :sigh:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 10:55 am
by Eugen
man, do I ever ramble :109:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:57 pm
by thebuildist
How DARE you be such a nice and generous guy! You're making the rest of us look bad!

:cop: :cop: :cop:


Bob

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:21 pm
by Eugen
Done

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 6:02 pm
by JSinMO
Impressive rambling @Eugen ( and the dig work was pretty good too)! :D

I don’t worry about how much my help is worth when it’s for a friend. Real friends are hard to find. I figure it will even out over time.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:27 pm
by thebuildist
The truth is, I'm just really jealous that you can dig so much so fast. It would take me a week with a shovel to do all that.

Assuming I didn't have a stroke halfway through.

Bob

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:50 pm
by Eugen
Bob, this machine surprised me too. All in all it was at most one and a half hours of digging. It has a big bucket, that backhoe. And obviously I'm not a professional, was quite slow. Let me tell you, the guy was very happy. :))

The blow by oil and smoke are quite bothersome though. More and more I'm thinking I must replace that blown piston. :109: :whip:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:00 pm
by Timj
:40: oh that looks too familiar, muddy trench full of water, doesn't get much better. :rofl:

Traded work between friends if it kinda evens out is the best. If it becomes a one sided affair, not so much.

Good job, the more you dig, the better you will get at it. :highfive:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:38 am
by DavidBarkey
thebuildist wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:27 pm The truth is, I'm just really jealous that you can dig so much so fast. It would take me a week with a shovel to do all that.

Assuming I didn't have a stroke halfway through.

Bob
Sounds like Bob needs a :j to avoid strokes

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:40 am
by DavidBarkey
Timj wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:00 pm :40: oh that looks too familiar, muddy trench full of water, doesn't get much better. :rofl:

Traded work between friends if it kinda evens out is the best. If it becomes a one sided affair, not so much.

Good job, the more you dig, the better you will get at it. :highfive:
Better to practice on someone else yard . :rofl:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:52 am
by Timj
DavidBarkey wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:40 am
Timj wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:00 pm :40: oh that looks too familiar, muddy trench full of water, doesn't get much better. :rofl:

Traded work between friends if it kinda evens out is the best. If it becomes a one sided affair, not so much.

Good job, the more you dig, the better you will get at it. :highfive:
Better to practice on someone else yard . :rofl:
Practice is practice, putting it back in and tuning it up is the fun part. More practice.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:21 am
by Eugen
A small update on the fate of this tractor. The original alternator on this machine was replaced by someone in the past with a Delco Remy style alternator. I didn't know much about this alternator when I first saw it. At first look I noticed a broken tab where a connector plugs into it. This type of alternator is called 10SI, and there are some variations. But the one I got has 3 tabs, plus the main terminal that connects to the battery. The three tabs are labeled usually 1, 2, and R. Tab 1 is supposed to go to the positive battery terminal, via the key switch and a light bulb, which is the alternator warning bulb. Tab 2 should be connected to the battery terminal on the alternator. Tab R can be connected to the RPM gauge, but it is usually left alone. All three tabs are coming out of a triangular looking hard plastic device which turns out to be the regulator. Tab 2 was broken right out of the plastic. I carved the plastic until enough of the tab was uncovered and I soldered a flexible wire with a new tab. There are quite a few more pieces on the inside, brushes and brush holder, a diode bridge on a heat sink, a trio of diodes, and a capacitor. I will show how they get measured at some point. The rotor and stator of the alternator also measured fine. The mistake I made when I assembled it back together, weeks ago, was that I did not noticed there is a very cool way to put the brushes in place upon assembly, and the brushes were not sitting right. Therefore I thought the regulator was bust. Looked around for a new alternator, and on account that this is 24V, it's more expensive than the many you can find for 12V. A new one would cost around $200, so I slept on it. Found a rebuilding kit on ebay at only about $100. Again, tonnes of rebuilding kits for 12V, a lot cheaper. For those of you in the US the shipping is much cheaper, and no import taxes; that's why mine went up to the 100. In any case, my ramble is getting too long. I have reassembled the alternator now and traced the wiring on the big backhoe back to the bulb. The whole dial panel on the backhoe is in terrible shape, old, brittle plastic, and the bulb holders were all crumbling from age. My surprise with this alternator is that Tab 1 must be connected via the bulb and to a battery, otherwise the alternator field doesn't kick in, and it produces no voltage. Once this was in place it started producing around 28 volts.

Still, I ordered the new kit and will replace all internal parts, including the ball and needle bearings, basically making it a new alternator. Sorry, no pictures for now.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:46 pm
by Eugen
For some I couldn't sleep last night from about 3:30 and the mind was racing through many things. Didn't want to waste this time in totality so I spent some of it going through the service and parts manuals. This engine lists two possible cylinder sleeves, with two different diameters. Can't find any way of finding out which diameter sleeve my engine uses to place an order for new a rebuild kit unless I pull out the sleeve. To pull the sleeve out the intake, water, and exhaust manifolds need to come off, then the head, then oil pan, and finally piston. It wasn't clear to me if this can be done with the engine still in the frame, and/or whether I need to fix the bucket up, which is a very questionable proposition, it's a giant loader this one. :hm:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:11 pm
by JSinMO
I hate nights like that. Brain won’t shut off.
Hopefully you can do an in frame rebuild.
Does this tractor have a skid pan under it that has to come off?
Do you have enough room to work under it to drive the sleeves out?

If the bucket has to be up I would sure want it cribbed good so it can fall.

Sorry I don’t have answers for this, just some questions and thoughts that came to mind.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:32 pm
by Spike188
The tractor serial number should cross-reference to the engine specs.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:30 am
by Eugen
It doesn't have a skid pan on its belly Jeff, clear access to the oil pan. But the sleeves go out through the top after removing the head. I'm not sure I want to risk keeping the loader up, thought about some 6-7 inch diameter pine logs under the bucket but it feels a little sketchy. Hope to be able to do the work with the loader down. I gotta think this one through, once the oil is out and the pan is off no more starting the engine.

@Spike188 this I thought about, but what if there's an error somehow? It'd be different if it was a $50 part, but I'm afraid to order a $2000 kit without 100% certainty it fits. I've resolved myself to start disassembly soon, God help me! Once the sleeve is out I'll know for sure what to order.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 4:43 am
by Toolslinger
No matter what choice you make, it's pretty much guaranteed that the loader will be in the way somehow. Up, Down, Halfway, doesn't matter, it always sucks working around a loader boom.

If I'm going to lock a boom up, I'd get some angle iron, cut it to length, and strap it to the rod between the cylinder body, and the pin on the boom. Bigger the loader, the bigger the angle... Channel is good too if you can find the right size, and I've seen someone do it with some heavy wall pipe they cut in half too.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 6:04 am
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen Have you looked up the weight of the head ? Can you remove it without a over head crane ? How long will it be apart open to the elements before you can get the parts ? Not trying to be a party pooper but things you need to consider and plan for as well .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:39 am
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 6:04 am @Eugen Have you looked up the weight of the head ? Can you remove it without a over head crane ?
No I haven't but it doesn't seem to be that big. Look at it in this drawing, compared to the guy's hands. I think I should be able to wrestle it out of there bear hands. Looks like there is a head for each two cylinders which makes it a little more manageable. I'm thinking 30 to 50 lbs per head max.
Screenshot 2023-01-16 at 11.10.53.png
Screenshot 2023-01-17 at 07.21.35.png
@Toolslinger yes sir, problem is I got no angle that size. :sigh: Still hoping I can get it done as is.
How long will it be apart open to the elements before you can get the parts ? Not trying to be a party pooper but things you need to consider and plan for as well .
This has been my concern all along, about doing it in the white season, and it will be open for one or two months. My plan at the moment is to empty the engine oil and coolant, remove the manifolds and put them in the tent, sprayed with oil and wrapped in plastic. To get the sleeve and blown piston out maybe I can get away with removing only one head. Oil that head and store it inside. Plug the manifold holes of the other head with old t-shirts after some oil spray. Also spray the exposed block and cover it with some cloth and then plastic bag taped over. Take the oil pan off, remove the connecting rod cap and pull the piston and sleeve out, then put the oil pan on just for cover. Finally, put the engine hood back on, and strap a tarp all over the front of the tractor. :giggle: I think it's doable. :D

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:53 am
by Spike188
One advantage to opening the engine before ordering parts is getting the correct rod and main bearings. Especially if there is excess journal wear.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:22 am
by Eugen
Spike188 wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:53 am One advantage to opening the engine before ordering parts is getting the correct rod and main bearings. Especially if there is excess journal wear.
True, it haven't thought about this. But I doubt I can take the crankshaft out without pulling the engine. The rod bearings yes. The main bearings not.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:01 pm
by RoamingGnome
I am feeling for you and the challenges with your backhoe - I read through the entire post and would have liked each individual post but didn't want to cramp up my mouse finger :lol:

Seriously, I'll have to do a post about my '65 Case 530CK backhoe (aka "OldYeller") soon and we can compare notes. I'm in the same boat as far as working outside in the BigSkyShop™ and with experience I find that I'm not willing to pay myself enough to justify working outside when the weather makes my face hurt... and it's a 5 hour drive to the property, and there is real snow there. Not this namby pamby stuff that freaks out people driving in the GTA...

I visited OldYeller in December to tarp him up for the winter - I can recommend Honey Goo as a protective spray that leaves a waxy residue to protect and prevent rusting on metal exposed to the elements...
PXL_20221214_154728429 (Large).jpg
Those cylinder heads can be deceptively heavy / awkward to move once you are trying to get it away from the block - I'd suggest a test lift first and decide if you are comfortable manhandling it alone. (I'd be concerned about twisting/turning with something heavy in my hands) Would an engine hoist would fit in there?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:36 pm
by Gordy
For the loader; I have done the angle iron and strap thing. But sometimes it is better to remove the loader, 4 pins and 4 hoses and a convenient big overhanging tree branch or a couple 4x4's cut to length.

:cheers:
Gordy

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 4:04 pm
by DavidBarkey
Quote
Those cylinder heads can be deceptively heavy / awkward to move once you are trying to get it away from the block - I'd suggest a test lift first and decide if you are comfortable manhandling it alone. (I'd be concerned about twisting/turning with something heavy in my hands) Would an engine hoist would fit in there?
Quote @RoamingGnome
As automotive tech of over 30 years , my experiences with diesel is limited . But any time I did work on I was surprised just how heavy the parts were compared to gas versions . You real world experience with said beast .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 4:21 pm
by Eugen
If I hadn't sold the Massey loader.. it was basically my crane. I'll be careful.

@Gordy the loader on this tractor is massive. I will not try to remove it.

@RoamingGnome I can appreciate how much more difficult it must be for you to work on your machine, probably not having all your tools there. If you share your wrenching with us that would be great. Also thank you for reading this thread and your suggestions.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:30 am
by Eugen
Well, I'm quite sad :( . Not sure why I assumed that the oil pan would come out easy as I did not remember any skid plate or such thing that would block access to the pan bolts. Threw a quick look at it this morning and there's a cross member welded to the frame, the support for the front axle pin, which runs across the oil pan about a third of the way from the front. Covering that third of the oil pan is this member, the pin, power steering, and axle. The space there is very very tight, I really don't see how to undo the many bolts in that area without lifting the engine from the frame. What I thought was a difficult job for me, now has become close to impossible. I'll go and cry now on the inside. :((

7F767A28-20A9-42D3-88D2-C43361D0530E.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 1:28 pm
by DavidBarkey
Well that sucks . @Eugen Can you find out from a repair manual if the pan once undone will clear the inners or what they say is the procedure to change the pan gasket .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 1:52 pm
by Eugen
As you can see I'm inclined to have a knee-jerk posting (just when I said I try to moderate myself :oops:).

Did some searches and people in the know have said elsewhere that it's possible to take the belly pan off without pulling the engine completely out. The basic idea is to undo the motor mounts and lift the engine enough to get access to those bolts and remove the oil pan. Time for me to sleep on this, whether to embark on it or not :writing:. The alternative is to use the backhoe in three cylinders as is to get the foundation done in the Spring, and pray it doesn't throw a rod or something like that. Kind of a downer for sure. :|

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 2:30 pm
by RoamingGnome
Been there, done that - and it's a pain in the butt... check the forums, see what others have run into - without knowing any details - you might be able to put a piece of square tube across the top of your loader arms and use a small chainfall / comealong to lift the front of the engine. Or rent an A frame gantry type hoist - (not a 2x4 across two step ladders :)) )

You may also have clearance problems with the pick up tube for the oil pump - sometimes it helps to drop the pan a little and wriggle your hand in there to undo what ever bolts are holding the tube up... Keep us posted, It's a curveball for sure, but shouldn't be insurmountable...

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:34 pm
by JSinMO
I agree with @RoamingGnome its a pain but certainly doable. I don’t know how the motor mounts are situated on this tractor, but you might also be able to shim the engine up there too. I ran into a similar problem when I replaced the timing chain set on my pickup a few years back. Things I looked at said you had to remove the front differential to drop the oil pan. It took some doing but you can in fact drop the pan on a 2006 F150 without removing the front differential! If you only need a couple of inches to get to the bolts and clear the crankshaft and oil pickup, it may not be too bad.
Do you still plan to sell it when you’re done? Just wondering what the resell difference would be if you didn’t fix it. If it’s not that much it might not be worth it.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:55 pm
by RoamingGnome
Again... not really sure how things are set up between your engine and frame rails... so look carefully and make your own judgment call - It might be possible to completely remove the front engine mount bolts, loosen the rear bolts (But leave them in there so it doesn't slide away on you) and then put something under the oil pan to spread the load as much as you can and push the engine up from underneath with a jack - put some hardwood blocks under the front engine mounts to support it, remove the jack and carefully wiggle the oil pan out... At least it's an idea - you would have to watch the oil pan carefully and make sure it can support the weight. Sometimes thinking outside the box can get you out of a bind...

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:35 pm
by Eugen
You guys are spot on. I've been searching around and yes, it seems that undoing the front engine mount and lifting the front of the engine is a solution. I'll have to figure out a way to do that.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:03 am
by Eugen
There were other priorities lately, so no progress on tractors, until last night. Started the 680 and lifted the loader to various heights. Indeed, with the loader all the way up access to work on the engine is optimal. I do have now 3/8 thick angle iron that I could use to lock the loader up, but according to my assessment, I can get the manifolds and other parts out with the loader down too. Yes it'll be more awkward but also much safer, as there's nothing to possible fall on and crush me. So I've removed the two heavy plates at the front, one below the grille, one under the radiator and hydro pump. Also removed the grille. Since I've run the engine for a while, and the engine oil got warm, I also drained the oil. This I consider the beginning of operation "piston". Starting now the tractor will no longer be started, and disassembly will continue. :please:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:39 pm
by Eugen
Draining the coolant. It's cloudy and probably aged to perfection. It'll breaking my heart to put new coolant in. :33:

EDDC3016-96D9-49D9-95CB-C77C327E51F5.jpeg


I know guys, boooooring. :D

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:04 pm
by JSinMO
While watching antifreeze dribbling out of a radiator may be boring, this project is anything but! I’m really wanting to see what the inside of this thing looks like. I probably don’t have to say this but since you’re working over the loader arms be careful of your back. It doesn’t take much to strain something while wrestling manifolds and such while bent over.

Here’s to an easy tear down, and no surprises! :thumbsup:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2023 9:09 pm
by Eugen
Thank you, encouraging words are nice! :worship: I too am curious what we're gonna find inside.

This evening I wanted to have some fun and take the intake manifold off. Thank you @FUTZ for helping and keeping me company, especially in -12C weather. Not much to see in the picture, if you didn't know the manifold is missing.
E930ABC5-7CFD-4FE4-AA1B-74DBB7E344EC.jpeg
Taking off the manifold was a very difficult task. From here on it's going to be a breeze. In particular the front engine mount bolt that's impossible to get to I expect will be a walk in the park. Lifting the front of the engine too. :D

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:40 am
by propane1
Great that things are moving along Eugen. I will be no help to you, but I will follow along. I’m sure I’ll ramble something out at times.
-12C !!!! To cold for this old bugger.

Noel :D

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:19 am
by JSinMO
As @Gordy has said the way back machine in my head kicked in here! You talking this apart in -12C made me remember my dad. He bought a wore out John Deere 450 track loader just like this one.
512FCB62-4E6D-4DFD-9907-37A8B98FD6EA.jpeg
He was able to shove it into the old shed we used to keep hogs and straw bales in and rebuild it over a winter. No heat, crappy lighting, the only thing the shed did was kind of break the wind! He rebuild that thing front to back top to bottom. I remember it was dang cold but looking back I think he loved ever minute of it! Ended up being a great machine, he did a massive amount of work with that little tractor. Thanks for the memory!

I had to beat Noel to the working on old junk in the cold ramble! :giggle: :D

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:18 pm
by Eugen
Hat off to your dad @JSinMO !

In my case necessity is the great motivator. :)

Today I was given some time to wrench in daylight(real luxury) by my :wife:!

Started with the exhaust. Those rusty nuts and bolts are always a challenge, if access to them is restricted. But it came all off after some torch action.
5D8572F2-A2C1-4FDD-92EB-6553704FDB46.jpeg
82C31737-E25B-484F-B9E6-8794ECC09C0D.jpeg
Next, water manifold
EBD44418-D571-4E3C-92FA-712DE80B2EA4.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:25 pm
by Eugen
Came out easier than the exhaust.

9DA44E5F-E8DB-48E3-84AB-3059339FC9EB.jpeg


Then the fuel lines feed and return. I had to switch gears and go into "fine" mode, the fuel fittings are sensitive. Managed to not break or bend anything.

CF29C09E-293E-44E3-A270-8EA5FD0D7D9D.jpeg
A5DB13EC-BD42-48FB-9DA4-A95C0B1A15E5.jpeg
FE43C88B-AA25-400F-BE62-4B6EA15E5E77.jpeg


Let's take those injectors out too.

FBD37304-E40F-47A0-B192-E6A8CAE28EDA.jpeg
572B698B-0CE6-48E7-B4EE-AE50196AE2A7.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:43 pm
by Eugen
Next, valve covers off.

307B3932-A6FE-46FD-B155-BDB329B226D1.jpeg

After taking in the view for a minute I proceeded to tackle the head bolts. Well, the 1/2 inch drive breaker bar was bending so much I feared it would snap, and the bolts didn't budge. The impact also couldn't do it.

Time for the bigger gun.

E71D8066-80FE-4B7D-99D4-0C2D5C579A30.jpeg

Yes, the 3/4 drive 30" long breaker bar did it.

With the bolts out of the way, I pried the head loose with the screwdriver.

901FBAC8-5F09-4CD8-8365-05B657D43638.jpeg


But lift it? @RoamingGnome you were right, this thing is HEAVY! The designer must've had a mechanic brother as the head is divided in two. But the half is really really heavy!

just muscled it out. Look at them valves staring at me!

DC660FCA-5D44-4C59-B550-518D8B4AC482.jpeg


And now gentlemen, behold.
Piston #1
Piston #1
Piston #2
Piston #2

Not that I had any doubts, but now it's clear I'll replace all the pistons.


This is all for today, wife needs me to take over the kids, and I must say I'm satisfied with the progress today.

Wrapped the other 1/2 head and the open block in rags and covered it with tarp.

6FF1A2F8-9478-47A0-BDD9-7E55D07CC046.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 4:41 pm
by JSinMO
Great progress @Eugen !
Yup it looks pretty spicy :109: at least there are some numbers on piston 2 hopefully for reference.
I don’t remember if you had repair parts sorted out yet.
I’ve mentioned this fella before but not sure if I gave his contact information. John Saeli is the big case expert. I gotten stuff from him for my 830 and I think @Spike188 said he has used him in the past too. He is in New York State. If he doesn’t have what you need he probably knows who does.

https://www.saeliimplement.com/

If I gave you this information already then disregard. I didn’t go back through the thread and check. :thumbsup:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:01 pm
by Eugen
Thank you Jeff! Yes, I'll call John as soon as I can figure out the size of the sleeve. This engine used two different types of sleeve and the only way I can tell which I need is to pull it out. There's one major hurdle left: to undo the front engine mount bolt and lift the front of the engine enough as to get the oil pan off. Then connecting rod and piston out. If I get that far, it'll be me and the sleeve going for a waltz. :giggle:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:40 pm
by JSinMO
Yes, I remember you saying that now about the different sleeves. Looks like that piston is marked

A166122
A

I did a quick search and that number does come up as a piston for Case tractors. May help tell you what sleeve you have.

Not sure how good this site is but it lists sleeve

A153638
For that piston.

https://spare.avspart.com/spare/case/a166122/


Here’s a little more from a site I’ve ordered parts from many times.

https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Case ... 30568.html

Hope it helps!

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 6:37 pm
by Eugen
Thank you for this information Jeff! The parts manual shows these two pages


94330557-8161-4C43-A6B7-1015350FC52B.jpeg
EB8CD549-38DF-42C6-A5D7-62A9F4693798.jpeg

There are some rebuild kits available for this tractor and as far as I can tell they all include the same pistons and rings, but the sleeve can be of two types and the crankshaft bearings should be chosen std, or undersized. These are after market kits and I could only find one maker for them, just like the one in the link you posted. It so happens that John Saeli is on the list and should carry these kits or order them, same as yesterdaytractors. They carry the same kits. My plan would be to measure the sleeve and then call John and ask about the right kit for me. I would also want the kit to include all the gaskets, just like the one you pointed to. Other sites have these kits for about 1300 USD. Convert that to CAD, shipping, brokerage and taxes and I'm looking at about $2000 CAD. But the engine would have new life in it.

Something interesting would be if the piston itself does not have a through hole and only the rings are shot. :hm:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:45 am
by Eugen
A little more progress last night. Was able to get the front mount engine nut off the bolt quite easily.

09AFBDAB-4BD8-4AA0-9390-5BA07B5DA93D.jpeg

Then put a car jack on 4x4 wood and a small steel plate and lifted the engine by the ridge where it's bolted to the transmission, but it only went up about an inch. Duh! Looks like the hydraulic pump at the front hits the radiator. :109:

Either the pump or the radiator needs to come off. :|


7BECBA05-8913-4AD6-A743-8151CB56EC0A.jpeg
BD180B77-9802-4937-A3D0-3DED2B3AF497.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:03 am
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen Can undo the rad supports and raise it up on some blocks of wood and the strap it so can fall over ? That thing must be heavy to lift .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:09 am
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:03 am @Eugen Can undo the rad supports and raise it up on some blocks of wood and the strap it so can fall over ? That thing must be heavy to lift .
Dave, there is part of the heavy gage steel frame on top and all around the rad. It looks like a pain to take out that radiator but hope I'm wrong. 🤷‍♂️

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:15 am
by RoamingGnome
@Eugen - I had to pull the pump off my 530CK to change the fan belt and replace the pump drive coupler - wasn't too bad a job and it would give you a chance to inspect the splines for the pump drive. Might also be a good idea to double check if there would be clearance issues with the fan as you raise the front of the engine...

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:43 am
by Eugen
RoamingGnome wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:15 am @Eugen - I had to pull the pump off my 530CK to change the fan belt and replace the pump drive coupler - wasn't too bad a job and it would give you a chance to inspect the splines for the pump drive. Might also be a good idea to double check if there would be clearance issues with the fan as you raise the front of the engine...
Gerry, I happen to have new belts and thought it was as good an opportunity to change them. I undid the two bolts holding the pump to its bracket last night. These two bolts took a while to undo, had to use two wrenches, no room for sockets, and was hugging the pump in an interesting yoga position. :rofl:

Was hoping to pull the pump out of the splines and push it to the side. I can be so naive sometimes. :109: On the passenger side of the pump the intake hose comes in, 3" diameter and very stiff. In front of it there's a bracket holding two hoses, circled in this image below.

FBF3F459-4EEC-4DE1-8C30-65429C9ED9EA.jpeg


I pulled with my hands on the pump last night more out of desperation than straight thinking, maybe, maybe by some miracle it would come out. It didn't. At this point it was midnight and dark, hard too see the bigger picture, so I went in early, defeated, to cry in my wife's arms. :124:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:46 am
by Eugen
Ok ok, no need for supporting private messages, I didn't cry for real :rofl: in fact it was a great day wrenching. Just kidding around a bit with you guys :))

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 11:11 am
by RoamingGnome
@Eugen Good to know you haven't lost your sense of humour and you can still kid with us about your struggles... :rofl:

I was just going back through my photos to refresh my memory of pulling the Hyd. pump - and there aren't any of the actual removal - I almost thought I had dreamed the whole experience
PXL_20220429_194748829.jpg
(But I didn't)

I usually take lots of cellphone photos as I'm starting a job - makes it so much easier to put things back together in the right place - I think the 530CK has a slightly smaller pump, but remember draining the Hyd. oil and removing all the hoses from the pump before it would move (they might even have been original ones - they were really hard and wanted to crack if moved to much) The suction hose did get replaced...

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 11:13 am
by Harry
When you get this tractor all sorted out and using it you’ll be smiling from ear to ear. Your on the road to success! :peace: Harry

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 12:11 am
by Eugen
@RoamingGnome it's useful to learn what you've done. One thing I dread is draining the hydraulic fluid, I don't even have clean pails and to buy new fluid for this tractor would probably be a few hundreds. When I got the tractor it about half empty, so I already put three pails of new hydraulic fluid in. Unless really necessary, I try to avoid it.

Had another good look at it today (it's different in daylight) and came up with a plan. Basically I noticed that "nose" of the tractor is like an upside down letter U made of 3/8 heavy plate, and about 16" long. The radiator is bolted to it on the inside. It is bolted on the lower frame with 3/4" bolts. In the picture below I circled the four bolts in green.

E8E8823F-9A9A-405A-B2A2-2F13E101D30D.jpeg

My plan was to undo those bolts and lift the whole thing up thus making room above the hydraulic pump to lift the engine from below. Those four bolts were a pain to undo. Real tight they were, and some of them no leverage on the wrench because of the tight space. The battle with these bolts was about two hours.

C656BAA1-25BE-4762-B863-10307698E1C4.jpeg

Now, how to lift that? Maybe the 644 would do. Created a boom of sorts from a good piece of lumber and chained it to the top of the frame.

8AFE685A-7E22-4F54-A0E7-98FA44032FAB.jpeg

Was able to lift it about four inches, high enough to put some pieces of wood in there to keep it in position. I had to undo the front little radiator that's bolted to the big one in the back, because the hoses that came to this one were hooked on steel pipes.

I don't have pictures of the next move, but I proceeded to lift the engine from below, with the jack on wood and steel plate. However, i can find no spot to put big wood under, or steel, so it doesn't stay on the jack. I don't trust just the jack there.

I've been also thinking of creating an extension to my electric wrench so I don't put my hand anywhere in between there. Just don't want to risk. To be continued...

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 12:32 am
by Eugen
Harry wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 11:13 am When you get this tractor all sorted out and using it you’ll be smiling from ear to ear. Your on the road to success! :peace: Harry
Harry, I hope to get to that point, and if so, you're right, it'll be a big smile. :)

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:13 am
by RoamingGnome
@Eugen Looks like you are making good methodical progress... one bolt at a time, so to speak. Love your "good piece of lumber" - Wish I was closer :wave2:

I'll have to do some more googling to check similarities / differences between our two backhoes. Things were a little more primitive when mine rolled off the assembly line in 1965. On the 530CK I had no choice - you have to remove the pump to change the fan belt - perhaps a local garage or shop might have a few buckets to spare? Waiting for the next instalment of your adventures... :42:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 1:25 pm
by Eugen
The oil pan bolts were easy to come out. Well, easier with the cordless ratchet.


https://vimeo.com/800601676






But it looks like the engine needs to go up more for the oil pan to come out. :hm:


68106013-808A-4088-9ECE-6CF1C29F1945.jpeg
50D6DBEE-E9A8-49A3-99B1-0F928BFACEBC.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:54 pm
by Eugen
The pan is off :)

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:21 pm
by RoamingGnome
WooHoo! Congrats!!! :cheers:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:24 pm
by Eugen
Come on, Case! What is this?! :43:

64BBA1B6-A0F5-4EBA-889C-C261B54D4906.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:47 pm
by Eugen
The hazet socket that saved my bu**!

4622DF34-D5DC-468D-8279-99407ED366FD.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:03 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:24 pm Come on, Case! What is this?! :43:


64BBA1B6-A0F5-4EBA-889C-C261B54D4906.jpeg
Thats very common for rod end bolts , so mains and head bolts .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:08 pm
by Eugen
The piston didn't come out easy. Pounded the skirt from below with mallet and a piece of rebar. Fought me every 1/4" of the way. Worked up a sweat! :smash:

1DB42562-49E3-4674-8EA9-7EB752CDE2D2.jpeg

Eventually it came out. Now we know why there was no compression in this one.
3A078805-705C-47D1-96C3-35D8CED52E34.jpeg

The sleeve though isn't budging. And I'm done for today, beat. :cheers:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:19 pm
by DavidBarkey
A little JB weld on the piston and a quick hone and your all set .
:giggle:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:30 pm
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPvI2eZy3VA
Watch this . I have some of the material need to make it . You will need to get the threaded rod . I can machine the pieces you need for the bottom if you get me sizes .

There is a reason they make these pullers .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:48 pm
by propane1
Eugen wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:08 pm The piston didn't come out easy. Pounded the skirt from below with mallet and a piece of rebar. Fought me every 1/4" of the way. Worked up a sweat! :smash:


1DB42562-49E3-4674-8EA9-7EB752CDE2D2.jpeg


Eventually it came out. Now we know why there was no compression in this one.

3A078805-705C-47D1-96C3-35D8CED52E34.jpeg


The sleeve though isn't budging. And I'm done for today, beat. :cheers:

Great progress Eugen. Two pistons I took out of my tea20 Ferguson tractor, four years ago, were like that. Not as bad, but similar.

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 7:16 pm
by JSinMO
DavidBarkey wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:19 pm A little JB weld on the piston and a quick hone and your all set .
:giggle:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

@Eugen Holy crap those last couple of pictures are ugly! :109: I guess we all knew it would be. On the plus side it’s lucky that engine didn’t have a catastrophic failure.
I would bet you can knock those sleeves out eventually with a lot of pounding and cussing :cuss: I think Mr. Dave has the idea on making a puller, much easier and hopefully less busted knuckles!

You made some great progress! I can almost hear that rebuilt engine humming along…..

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:15 am
by Eugen
Thsnks for coming along on this ride guys. Your suggestions and ideas are appreciated, it helps me.

Yes, I got to make that puller. I'll see what I can come up with and reach out to @DavidBarkey if I get stuck, thanks Dave!

Yesterday was family day, a fairly new provincial holiday in Ontario, so I didn't have to go to work, that's how I was able to put some hours in wrenching. But after 5 o'clock I was happy to be with the kids. Then I made some sausages on the grill and had a well deserved dinner, then more playing with the boys. After they were asleep and the night chores were over I was burning with curiosity if the crankshaft connecting rod journal was standard size or oversize, and what condition the piston pin is in.

Was glad to see that the connecting rod inner diameter was 2.75" and therefore STD. The piston pin is in great shape and measured almost 1.625 as per spec.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 12:25 pm
by Eugen
The sleeve puller is the priority atm. Found a 7/8 threaded rod and cut a 5x5 piece of 1/4 inch plate. Will try to turn the plate on the lathe to fit the bottom of the sleeve. Will have to look around for a top bracket of some sort.

7BABEEFC-D209-4D2B-8634-5AADF002D981.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 12:44 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 12:25 pm The sleeve puller is the priority atm. Found a 7/8 threaded rod and cut a 5x5 piece of 1/4 inch plate. Will try to turn the plate on the lathe to fit the bottom of the sleeve. Will have to look around for a top bracket of some sort.


7BABEEFC-D209-4D2B-8634-5AADF002D981.jpeg
Good start . Based on what I saw and have heard from heavy equipment mechanics it need some sort of back up material . Once you have it down to just under outside diameter of bottom diameter of sleeve and you hole in centre. Tack some pieces on the face of it you can turn down to the ID of the sleeve to keep it centred . As for the top plate and uprights . I have some heavy bar that you can have . It was given to me , so come get it and make some use of it . I will send you pic.s

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:30 pm
by Eugen
Thanks Dave, I just found a bracket made a 3/8 plate in my empire of junk, already welded and about the right size. Needed a one inch hole. I'll see if I can finish the bottom plate later this evening. Good point about making it beefier, I was thinking myself that 1/4" might be a little flimsy.

062A57B8-E5FB-41E6-8E8C-7CF2102E2070.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:53 pm
by Eugen
The 1/4" square plate piece that goes below the sleeve has an outer diameter of 4.8" and a groove with diameter 4.6". The sleeve bore is 4.625". Now it needs a 1" center hole.
313E3969-EB7C-48B8-B487-06BA64122C5D.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:29 pm
by Eugen
The 7/8 threaded rod for the sleeve puller was too short. Ended up using a 3/4 rod. Turned the engine so that the camshaft journal was out of the way and fitted the bottom plate from below. Some wiggling was necessary, plate first, then rod through it, and sat it on the camshaft lobe. On top just put the threaded rod through the bracket and a nut. After some more wiggling to seat the disk nicely on the sleeve bottom I started to tighten the nut. The first 1/2 inch went slow, as it's fitted tight.

75CFE191-C78B-4DB6-9FEB-370DB10537AF.jpeg

Then with a plop it just came undone. Took off the bracket and slowly pulled up the sleeve. All of a sudden it came out and a whole bunch of coolant. Somehow my feeble mind lost track of the coolant inside the engine :( perhaps the silver lining was that the ground was frozen solid and the coolant stayed on the surface long enough for me to transfer it to a pail by the soak and squeeze a rag method. The minor downside is just experiencing various levels of frozen hands.


Buuuut! The sleeve is out. Here it is, after cleaning it with some brake fluid and soft wire brush.

E5A97D0B-4600-4D0A-B6F9-863AF1879188.jpeg


After measurements were done there is no doubt which parts to order. A new chapter begins.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:59 pm
by Spike188
Eugen, I thought about jumping in and giving advice on building a sleeve puller. Why would I doubt that you would come up with a great solution.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2023 6:11 pm
by JSinMO
Great job! That is a milestone moment. Sounds like that puller worked well! :thumbsup:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2023 6:53 pm
by Eugen
Spike188 wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:59 pm Eugen, I thought about jumping in and giving advice on building a sleeve puller. Why would I doubt that you would come up with a great solution.
@Spike188 , I will always appreciate advice, so please feel free to always speak up your mind as far as I am concerned. You and most folks here have a lot more experience than I with such things. Just because I don't always ask for advice doesn't mean I know it all. I like exploring ways of doing things.

@JSinMO indeed it feels like a milestone. It's deep inside the engine, was quite intimidating even thinking about doing it. And the puller worked fine, in a matter of minutes the sleeve was out.

Most likely I cannot get to the cylinder closest to the front of the tractor, as it's right above that cross member. Opening it up to this level it'd be nice to do all cylinders. I could probably get away with doing just this cylinder and replacing all gaskets, but that doesn't make me feel so good. More stuff to sleep on I guess.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:06 pm
by MattA
Eugen you might want to put some wood between your puller and the top of the block to help prevent damage to the block.

I'm interested in how you will install the new sleeves.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:16 pm
by RoamingGnome
Great work @Eugen! :worship: - It might be worth checking if there is a preferred lubricant for the new o-rings when the time comes to install the new liner, don't forget to do a test fit without the o-rings so you can check protrusion of the new liner...

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:30 pm
by JSinMO
@eugen if your finding this intimidating it doesn’t show! You’re moving right along.

I think I would suggest at least pulling the other head off and inspecting everything since your this far in. It would be a shame to put it all together and then have a problem.

In my experience you can fix a single cylinder and everything will be fine, as long as the rest of the engine checks out ok. Is it the right way to do it? Depends on who you ask. Plenty of people would say it’s terrible.

Here is a picture of the last tractor me and my dad worked on. We did this for one of my neighbors. He brought it to me with the engine locked up.
1AB115A6-332E-4153-A34B-BC529459195A.jpeg
You can see we only replaced one sleeve, the rest of the engine was fine, and the neighbor didn’t want to spend more on it. It’s still running fine. In my case this was a dry sleeve with no o-ring. I put it in the freezer the day before to shrink it just a little and it slid right in. These engines are typically low RPM so they can last a long time. Old internationals are around 1800 max RPM and I’m betting your Case isn’t much more that 2500 RPM. These are just my thoughts and opinions for whatever that’s worth. Your turning the wrenches on this one, and your more than capable so no worries!


Anyway I guess this is just some old tractor rambling, if nothing else I guess I’m saying I’ve been elbow deep in an old tractor engine and it worked out fine and I know yours will too!

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:46 pm
by DavidBarkey
Awesome . Now you can order your parts . I agree with pulling the front head and checking for any signs of the same there . What ever caused this failure , bad fuel , bad air filter , over heating , bad oil , ect. is shared by the hole engine .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:19 pm
by Spike188
I agree with Dave, that the front cylinders should be checked. Eugen, you are so close to having the pan off. Lifting the rad to allow more engine lift is probably the method of chose. Unless your compression test before tear down indicate a good cylinder, a few more hours of slugging will give you a lot of peace of mind when assembling the engine.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:28 am
by Eugen
MattA wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:06 pm Eugen you might want to put some wood between your puller and the top of the block to help prevent damage to the block.

I'm interested in how you will install the new sleeves.
Matt, it's a good idea and I thought about it myself too, but the threaded rod was above the bracket one thread, literally. Anything under the bracket would not allow the nut to catch on the thread. I was also not overly concerned because there was no impact, just pressure, and thought the block would not get damaged. However, in the excitement of the moment I forgot to check the block after I pulled it. Will check and let you know if I made a booboo. :109:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:43 am
by Eugen
RoamingGnome wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:16 pm Great work @Eugen! :worship: - It might be worth checking if there is a preferred lubricant for the new o-rings when the time comes to install the new liner, don't forget to do a test fit without the o-rings so you can check protrusion of the new liner...
Thanks Gerry! The service manual calls for petroleum jelly. I've seen other people used soap with water. I think I'll do what the service manual says. Good call on checking the protrusion of the liner without o-rings. The manual says so too. I do have a dial indicator, but am not sure yet how I'll keep it steady and how to reliably measure the difference between the liner top surface and the block surface. I suppose if I had two dial indicators I could create some sort of fixture and install them in it next to each other. This needs more thinking.

@MattA I plan to use two head bolts and fab something similar to the tool in the service manual (see below).
7EFCA45C-635B-400F-B3F1-911179C56A89.jpeg
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63566769-8022-438B-B6BA-8B5F2B62B9BF.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:58 am
by Eugen
@DavidBarkey , @JSinMO , @Spike188 makes sense what you guys say. Will pull the other head off too. The compression test on the other three cylinders was between 350 and 400 psi, which is pretty low. I do want to change all the sleeves and pistons, but have doubts that I can work on the cylinder which is located right above that cross member of the frame. Even with the engine raised it's a very tight space. Will see when I get there.

@JSinMO working on that tractor outside, with the sun shining, I want some of that. :D Instead of the freezing temps, more snow, and the wind howling. :rofl:


Was curious about the valves, so on goes the valve spring compressor and off come the valves. But no measuring tonight, too tired.

FE660819-DB47-41DE-83BB-ED6CB8E015E5.jpeg
FD252536-AE43-44F3-A86C-A044EF704F02.jpeg
I'


I'll redo the valve face but don't have a seat cutter this big. :(

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:18 am
by propane1
Great progress Eugen. Will just like new when done.

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:11 am
by DavidBarkey
I do not have a cutter that big either . Locking good so far . Do you have a good straightedge to check for flat on the head ? If the heads are warped at all , it would be worth while to have them decked and the seats cut . Then you can do the rest .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:58 am
by Eugen
@propane1 I don't expect it will be like new, would be happy if it works good enough to get some work done.
DavidBarkey wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:11 am I do not have a cutter that big either . Locking good so far . Do you have a good straightedge to check for flat on the head ? If the heads are warped at all , it would be worth while to have them decked and the seats cut . Then you can do the rest .
No, I don't have a straight edge so accurate. Do you know anyone local you would trust with the head and seats job?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:27 am
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:58 am @propane1 I don't expect it will be like new, would be happy if it works good enough to get some work done.
DavidBarkey wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:11 am I do not have a cutter that big either . Locking good so far . Do you have a good straightedge to check for flat on the head ? If the heads are warped at all , it would be worth while to have them decked and the seats cut . Then you can do the rest .
No, I don't have a straight edge so accurate. Do you know anyone local you would trust with the head and seats job?
We use to use Preston's Cylinder Head & Engine Rebuilding Have not used him in years . There is a shop in Midhurst as well . Never used them .Canadian Cylinder Head Technologies.
I have one that I use you can borrow. It is not high end but it is close enough to tell if they need machining .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:47 am
by Eugen
Thanks Dave! :wave3:

Quick question. On smaller engines it is considered good enough to use a sheet of glass for checking head warpage, would it not be good enough for this?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:28 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:47 am Thanks Dave! :wave3:

Quick question. On smaller engines it is considered good enough to use a sheet of glass for checking head warpage, would it not be good enough for this?
Yes but I would put the glass on the head as opposed to head on glass do to the weight .Check the manual , but I think after cleaning up the surface , anymore than 0.003 and I would have it decked and seats cut .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:42 pm
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:28 pm

Yes but I would put the glass on the head as opposed to head on glass do to the weight .Check the manual , but I think after cleaning up the surface , anymore than 0.003 and I would have it decked and seats cut .
Manual says less than or equal to 0.005 is acceptable for this head. Which makes me think that the sheet of glass would be ok as a test. But it'd be nice to have extra long feeler gages. There, that's a tool I don't have. :))

I'll ask Mike if he can cut such large seats.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 11:03 am
by Eugen
Small update. Cleaned up and decarbonized the head main surface to measure warpage with a sheet of glass. Seemed to be within spec. Not having to resurface this half of the head is a relief.


But the valve seats must be cut fresh.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:33 pm
by Eugen
I'm slightly confused about something, and I'll think aloud here in the hope that you guys can confirm or otherwise. This shows how little experience I have with such things.

When I took the valves off, there were seals on the intake valve guides (inner two guides) but none on the exhaust. In the picture below you can see one seal on for illustration purposes. You can also see the mark on the other inner guide where the other seal was.
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The parts manual for this tractor does not show any such seals. But other tractors have used this particular engine, and other parts manuals for this engine do show such guide seals in a kit being available. The parts manual particular to this tractor has something named a "STEM SEAL" , a square profile o-ring type of seal that slips into a groove on the valve stem. Each of the valves did have this seal. It looks like this:
Screenshot 2023-02-24 at 14.27.42.png
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Sooo, there are clear signs that someone has opened this engine up before, for instance, orange silicone gasket maker on the oil pan gasket. Why have they decided to put this type of valve seal in addition to the original stem seal? And why only on the intake valve guides?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:00 pm
by Eugen
Measured the valve stems and they have absolutely no wear, therefore new valves are not needed.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:15 pm
by DavidBarkey
Stem seals are only needed on the intake valve due vacuum drawing in oil , where as the exhaust has pressure and the heat would kill them anyways . Only "umbrella seals" (square o rings at the top to keep oil from running down the stem from the spring keeper .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:16 pm
by DavidBarkey
How big are those valves ?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:47 pm
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:16 pm How big are those valves ?
1.75 ex
2 in
O.4025 stem diam

I'm taking the other head of now. :D

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 5:53 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:47 pm
DavidBarkey wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:16 pm How big are those valves ?
1.75 ex
2 in
O.4025 stem diam

I'm taking the other head of now. :D
I double checked ,Sorry I do not have anything that big.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:21 pm
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 5:53 pm I double checked ,Sorry I do not have anything that big.
Thanks my friend, I appreciate it! It's the neway cu645 I need and a thicker pilot. It's pretty big $$ for just a one time use. Will think of something.

There was not a lot of carbon on this head, just like the other one. Does anyone know if these two seals are normally part of the head gasket? They are circled in yellow here. The head gasket remained stuck to the block.

8A23C12A-91FE-44C1-A6A3-39C968C3BE01.jpeg
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Here's a close up.
A9341FE3-B570-45E4-BD79-FE594635D72E.jpeg
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I'd like to know if they are a separate seal to order it. Seems to be around a coolant gallery. Nothing shows in the parts diagram.

The pistons looked decent. Recall that compression was weak but over 340 psi in both these cylinders.
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Cleaned and measured for warp. This one's good too.

B5AABE1B-9E0B-4236-A72B-59806ED6F75F.jpeg
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What next?
1. Get the valves out and measure it all
2. clean both heads and the valves
3. resurface valves
4. cut seats
5. pull out the other pistons
6. order kit

Roughly that's the list. Probably forgetting something.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:10 pm
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen @10 oclock on the first piston pic. the piston is signs of the piston deteriorating due to compression leaking past. It will fail like the other one .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:39 pm
by Jancoe
Both pics show signs of detonation. First pic 10oclock second pic 2 oclock.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk


Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 10:02 pm
by Eugen
He he, good catch guys! Just checking if you're paying attention. :25:

Hope to be able to replace them all.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:54 pm
by Eugen
If anything, since I first met Dave, I've learned to listen carefully to what he says. :worship:

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For completeness I'll write again what I've done today.

Got my workplace ready.

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Supposedly it was -9C but I honestly think they were wrong, it didn't feel that cold at all. Slight annoyance was the snow drifting on me and tools.
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Minor booboo happened me not realizing the oil pump was connected via hard line which got bent when the pump went down. Silver lining, no kinks.
D766BB16-DE34-4B98-8F23-71775DF9E5E3.jpeg

Then here I was, facing this.
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Getting the rod cap bolts off was easier than I thought, now being armed with the right cheater pipe. Even access to the cylinder above the cross section was not so bad. This gave an encouragement and so I took all pistons out.
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Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2023 1:01 pm
by DavidBarkey
Thanks Eugen , I don't have a lot of experience with diesels , but 30 years in automotive and all the years in racing when I was younger . I learned a few things . I can even remember some of it :65: :rofl:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2023 7:32 pm
by Spike188
@Eugen Your pictures of wrenches and tarps on the snow make my bones ache and make me cold. There will never be enough candles on my cake to warm me up.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:38 pm
by JSinMO
Well done! :thumbsup: Glad you were able to get them all out. Also glad you decided to take a look under that other head. Hopefully it won’t take long to get the kit you need.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2023 7:10 am
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen Take a look at each of these pistons . Is the gap on the top ring at the same place as the failure . If so , that is your cause on all of it . Wear , as the ring / cylinder wears the gap opens up . The aluminum erodes from the hot gasses passing that point repeatedly .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:05 am
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 7:10 am @Eugen Take a look at each of these pistons . Is the gap on the top ring at the same place as the failure . If so , that is your cause on all of it . Wear , as the ring / cylinder wears the gap opens up . The aluminum erodes from the hot gasses passing that point repeatedly .
One piston right at the gap, one about half inch away, the other about 2" away from the gap.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:52 am
by Eugen
My wife says yesterday, what else you still need to do, and I say nothing for now, order the parts. Then it dawns on me the three sleeves are still in! Oops! :blush:


Puller comes to rescue though.

C15F3B9D-592E-4D04-B6F9-185149C92066.jpeg


Here's something interesting on one of the sleeves. A crushed o-ring bleeding mostly upwards. Does this mean the original installation may have been botched a little? I can't think of another reason for this.

2075D234-F714-4AF8-B62C-DADD4992A33D.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:36 pm
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen That one with the bad o ring . check for burr in the block . Too much lube in behind the o ring in the grove at time of install can cause this as well .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:59 am
by Eugen
It's been very busy on this side of the screen. Much time has been spent with people on the phone and scraping the internet for parts. All those nice "rebuild kits" on every single website, are just nice pictures. None of them are available, and they can't tell you when they'll be available, nobody knows, because nobody can get the sleeves anymore. At first I asked myself why they would list these parts that they obviously are not able to get. But it's not important.

At that point I've started thinking that I have no choice but to use the old sleeves with new pistons and rings, and new rod bearings. So I've measured the bore on all sleeves, pretty unbelievable but, although worn, they are still within specs, towards the end of the range where they should be replaced soon. For odd jobs here and there I think these sleeves could be used another few 2-4 years, especially with new pistons and rings.

Just when I was about to give up, I found a different source of sleeves, Mahle/Clevite, that are on backorder until April. They say it's not 100% sure they'll come in, but there's a good chance. So, I might wait until mid April and give it a chance. :writing: :snail: :violin:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:44 pm
by Spike188
@Eugen I also learned the hard way that parts may not have been available at all in the last 10 years. Web designers and part suppliers like to have pretty pictures and cheap prices to suck traffic toward their site. When rebuilding the 188G Case gas engine 2 years ago only used parts were available or we could have reverted to custom made pistons to fit the worn sleeves.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:34 pm
by JSinMO
@Eugen I hate to hear that. I hope they really do come in April. I didn’t even think about parts not being available, but I guess I should have. I have run into this problem too. Some parts for Herbie the truck aren’t available or are hard to find. And I’ve run into the phony picture thing too. I guess there’s always a way around it depending on what we’re willing to do. If you have to use the old sleeves, will they still be in spec after you hone them? If so they may last longer than you think.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:17 pm
by Eugen
JSinMO wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:34 pm @Eugen I hate to hear that. I hope they really do come in April. I didn’t even think about parts not being available, but I guess I should have. I have run into this problem too. Some parts for Herbie the truck aren’t available or are hard to find. And I’ve run into the phony picture thing too. I guess there’s always a way around it depending on what we’re willing to do. If you have to use the old sleeves, will they still be in spec after you hone them? If so they may last longer than you think.
I don't know Jeff, you're right, if I scratch hone them it might push them right over the spec. I placed the order today, and will wait for mid April see if they deliver. If not, I probably must stay with the old ones.

@Spike188 yes, you told me to call and check for availability and you were right! :)

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 6:10 am
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:17 pm
JSinMO wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:34 pm @Eugen I hate to hear that. I hope they really do come in April. I didn’t even think about parts not being available, but I guess I should have. I have run into this problem too. Some parts for Herbie the truck aren’t available or are hard to find. And I’ve run into the phony picture thing too. I guess there’s always a way around it depending on what we’re willing to do. If you have to use the old sleeves, will they still be in spec after you hone them? If so they may last longer than you think.
I don't know Jeff, you're right, if I scratch hone them it might push them right over the spec. I placed the order today, and will wait for mid April see if they deliver. If not, I probably must stay with the old ones.

@Spike188 yes, you told me to call and check for availability and you were right! :)
@Eugen Even if you have to hone them a little oversized . It still be way better with new pistons and rings than what you had before .
Even if it is only at 80% / that is still better than one dead and 3 lame cylinders trying to haul around a dead cylinder before a load was ever applied you at best had 40%

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 6:36 am
by propane1
Any chance of used parts in your area Eugen. I got used sleeves and pistons from a used tractor place in Ontario when I did the Ferguson tractor engine. I also got a block from him too. My engine had big crack down the side of it. New rings, bearings and gaskets, from the same fella too. So I put it all together and it works fine. That was 5 years ago. Doesn’t smoke, oil stays clean and rarely add any. Son had if going yesterday to clean up the little bit of snow we got.
So I guess what my ramble is meaning, is, it doesn’t have to be all perfect. It’ll run fine on worn or used parts. You not gunna go racing with it. I don’t think. Hehehe

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 6:39 am
by propane1
propane1 wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 6:36 am Any chance of used parts in your area Eugen. I got used sleeves and pistons from a used tractor place in Ontario when I did the Ferguson tractor engine. I also got a block from him too. My engine had big crack down the side of it. New rings, bearings and gaskets, from the same fella too. So I put it all together and it works fine. That was 5 years ago. Doesn’t smoke, oil stays clean and rarely add any. Son had if going yesterday to clean up the little bit of snow we got.
So I guess what my ramble is meaning, is, it doesn’t have to be all perfect. It’ll run fine on worn or used parts. You not gunna go racing with it. I don’t think. Hehehe

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:07 am
by Eugen
Thank you guys! I appreciate your advice! :highfive: :cheers:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:58 pm
by Eugen
A few parts arrived. Full gasket set, head gasket set, valve seals, rod and main bearings. Sleeve and cylinder kits on back order. First they said estimated shipping date April 12. Now it got bumped to May 1st. I'm not holding my breath.

F44EEA36-1509-44FE-8FC7-DE532764EFD8.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:28 pm
by MattA
Still waiting on parts?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:57 pm
by Eugen
MattA wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:28 pm Still waiting on parts?
Every month they tell me it got delayed another month. :(

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:02 pm
by propane1
Was gunna ask. But I figured I should not.


Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:07 pm
by MattA
They know you need a break from too many projects :cheers:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:25 pm
by Eugen
Yeah Matt, I'm lucky they're looking out for me :)

@propane1 no harm asking, ever. 🤷‍♂️

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:28 pm
by Eugen
I've decided to start working on the backhoe again. This evening I've replaced the main bearings. Took me 3 hours, not a walk in the park but not horrible either. Not sure what's worse, working in the freezing cold snow or in sweltering heat and mosquitoes attacks. The bolts for the bearingcaps take a 15/16 socket. Have not torqued them to spec yet, don't know the spec yet either. My torque wrench maxes out at 150 ft-lbs, might be too weak.

Found the value in the service manual: 145 - 155 ft-lbs.

F6B630E2-1A91-4EB8-A4BF-7D6A51E19A76.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 6:35 am
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen I have one you can borrow . it maxes out at 250 lbs. Will be more acurate for that job.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 8:46 am
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 6:35 am @Eugen I have one you can borrow . it maxes out at 250 lbs. Will be more acurate for that job.
Thanks Dave, I'll take you up on this. Next time I come by I'll bring the sleeves for a rub too. :D

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 9:28 am
by JSinMO
Glad you’re making progress @Eugen.
I know this one has been kind of aggravating. I’m hoping it’s a short road from here to having it running again. :thumbsup:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:23 am
by Eugen
JSinMO wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 9:28 am Glad you’re making progress @Eugen.
I know this one has been kind of aggravating. I’m hoping it’s a short road from here to having it running again. :thumbsup:
Thanks, it is what it is. Sometimes in life things don't get resolved according to our expectations or desire. The company that I ordered the sleeve and piston assemblies on March 3rd has delayed the shipping date every month, and now I have given up on that. The sleeve and piston assembly is a kit that would include sleeve, piston, rings, and sleeve o-rings. I've been told that it's the sleeves which are continually on back order, while the other components are available to buy separately, not in a kit. Guess what, it's about 400 USD more expensive to buy these parts separately. It's not that great.

But here's another piece to the ramble. The other day I replaced the main bearings, meaning, the old ones were in the tractor, the new ones in the box next to me. The upper bearings are a little tricky to get out, involving turning the crankshaft by hand while inserting a thin rod through the lubricating hole in the shaft journal so as to hook the upper bearing and slide it out. The bearings that were at the far ends of the shaft were the hardest due to the position and hard access. So out came the old bearings, and I wipe them and inspect them. I read STD on them and it dawns on me that the new bearings sitting in the box are also STD. Same with the the rod bearings, by the way. Thank God for sparing me the extra pain of having to order a different size of bearings, because I was so short sighted that I did not check which size bearings were in the tractor and simply assumed they were STD. Phew!!!! :109:

7C18BB04-F33C-4723-B44F-33547C961C6C.jpeg
FDFA1E1C-7B53-4B25-841C-033910E7ECEE.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:07 pm
by propane1
Luck was on your side that time Eugen.


Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:21 pm
by Harry
Eugen wrote: Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:23 am
JSinMO wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 9:28 am Glad you’re making progress @Eugen.
I know this one has been kind of aggravating. I’m hoping it’s a short road from here to having it running again. :thumbsup:
Thanks, it is what it is. Sometimes in life things don't get resolved according to our expectations or desire. The company that I ordered the sleeve and piston assemblies on March 3rd has delayed the shipping date every month, and now I have given up on that. The sleeve and piston assembly is a kit that would include sleeve, piston, rings, and sleeve o-rings. I've been told that it's the sleeves which are continually on back order, while the other components are available to buy separately, not in a kit. Guess what, it's about 400 USD more expensive to buy these parts separately. It's not that great.

But here's another piece to the ramble. The other day I replaced the main bearings, meaning, the old ones were in the tractor, the new ones in the box next to me. The upper bearings are a little tricky to get out, involving turning the crankshaft by hand while inserting a thin rod through the lubricating hole in the shaft journal so as to hook the upper bearing and slide it out. The bearings that were at the far ends of the shaft were the hardest due to the position and hard access. So out came the old bearings, and I wipe them and inspect them. I read STD on them and it dawns on me that the new bearings sitting in the box are also STD. Same with the the rod bearings, by the way. Thank God for sparing me the extra pain of having to order a different size of bearings, because I was so short sighted that I did not check which size bearings were in the tractor and simply assumed they were STD. Phew!!!! :109:


7C18BB04-F33C-4723-B44F-33547C961C6C.jpeg

FDFA1E1C-7B53-4B25-841C-033910E7ECEE.jpeg
Nice ramble, Eugen :peace: Harry

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:32 pm
by JSinMO
Good ramble@Eugen. I know what you mean about things not going as you expected. Reminds me of the old saying, if you want to make god laugh tell him your plans.

I don’t remember the specifics off hand, but is it possible to reuse any of the sleeves and pistons and just rering them?

At least you got some good luck with the bearings! :thumbsup:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2023 9:52 pm
by Eugen
Parts are here so no excuses now :109: gotta get busy
96CD6CF9-0D99-4558-AFE3-B9C22140B374.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2023 7:00 am
by DavidBarkey
:congrats:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2023 7:23 am
by RoamingGnome
Eugen wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2023 9:52 pm Parts are here so no excuses now :109: gotta get busy
Yes... Waiting for the progress reports now :congrats:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2023 7:38 am
by Eugen
no pressure eh? :rofl: :bee: :bee: :bee:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2023 7:54 am
by RoamingGnome
:worship:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2023 7:56 am
by Spike188
Woot, It is the continuation of Eugen and the Engine that can be finished! :bee: :clap:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2023 9:18 pm
by JSinMO
RoamingGnome wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2023 7:23 am
Eugen wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2023 9:52 pm Parts are here so no excuses now :109: gotta get busy
Yes... Waiting for the progress reports now :congrats:
Do you have it running yet? :43: :rofl: just kidding @Eugen !
Seriously I’m glad those parts finally came in! :thumbsup:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2023 10:55 am
by Eugen
He he guys, I wish I was that fast!

Something's come up that I haven't thought of. The rod wrist pin bushings are 1.625" ID. The old bushings need to be pressed out, and the new ones pressed in. I don't have a press that can do that. :| Also, after being pressed in they need to be reamed to a snug fit, so I've been reading on the right clearance and how to achieve it. Guess what, I do not have an adjustable reamer of that size. :109: The cheapest reamer from Amazon is about $100 and I'm not even sure it's good enough to do this. Need to think some more how to tackle this...

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2023 9:25 pm
by propane1
Is it running yet. ?????? Hehe. Don’t worry Eugen, you’ll figure it out and have it going.

Norl

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:23 pm
by Eugen
Pulled the trigger on that manual adjustable reamer. What's another $100 in the big bucket of thousands already invested in this machine. :|

I had a feeling that the old bushing most likely needs to be replaced by the amount of wiggling happening even with the new piston pin. But it doesn't hurt to confirm it with a measurement. My dial bore gauge can only do 2-6" so I had to go cave man on it using telescoping gauges and the micrometer.
To put things in perspective, it's a big rod.
To put things in perspective, it's a big rod.
The old pin being measured.
The old pin being measured.

The nominal piston pin size is 1.625 inches; the old pin measures 1.2617, the new pin measures 1.2643. Using the telescoping gauge the bushing ID measures about 1.2674.

So the old pin clearance is about
1.2674-1.2617 = 0.0057

Using the new pin with the old bushing would give about
1.2674-1.1643 = 0.0031
clearance. The service manual says acceptable clearance is 0.0008 to 0.0014. New bushing needed, clearly.
Screenshot 2023-07-26 at 14.22.59.png

Onward we go, hopefully.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2023 4:19 pm
by JSinMO
I feel your pain @Eugen. I know all of us have experienced cost overruns on projects we have had. I know I have! :109: At least you know you’ll have a fine machine when you’re done. I’m hoping you can gain some back or at least feel better about the cost when you can put it to work, or get you money back if you sell it later. If nothing else you should feel proud of the work you’ve put into it to make it right. :thumbsup:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2023 11:09 pm
by Eugen
Meet my new future mini press. That's a 12 ton bottle. Should be enough to press the bushings out/in.
CFC8EF5C-99C2-4F0E-8765-FE5C62BE456D.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2023 5:00 am
by Toolslinger
There's no way to beat having a press when you need it.
Mine is a pretty crappy 20 ton import. It flexes WAY too much under load to make me comfortable. But it beats the crap outa all the previous options I had. I always keep an eye open for a used/vintage 50 ton reputable brand... That would make pressing matters far more pleasant.

Glad to see you're picking away at it, but man, I feel your pain on the snowballing cost. Going to be a heck of a machine when you're done though.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2023 9:45 am
by Eugen
Toolslinger wrote: Thu Jul 27, 2023 5:00 am There's no way to beat having a press when you need it.
Mine is a pretty crappy 20 ton import. It flexes WAY too much under load to make me comfortable. But it beats the crap outa all the previous options I had. I always keep an eye open for a used/vintage 50 ton reputable brand... That would make pressing matters far more pleasant.
A press has been on my wish list for quite some time, but somehow it didn't make it to the top of the priorities list. I suppose you can never have enough pressing force, but really it does make me wonder what kind of tasks would need a 50 ton press. It's a sincere question, because when I decided to look for a press somehow I thought I'd be more than ok with a 20 ton press. My experience with fabrication is somewhere between none and very limited. :D

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2023 1:25 pm
by Eugen
Anyway, the makeshift press worked well on this first rod. I used two large sockets, one with OD about the same size as the bushing OD, and the other with ID larger, to be able to push the bushing into it. I first pushed the old bushing about 1/8" using the socket, then I put the new bushing in and allowed it to push the old bushing out. Hopefully it won't mess up on the next ones.
F9CA5035-03B9-4329-BE5B-BD1160D09E5A.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2023 1:27 pm
by Toolslinger
I haven't run across anything I couldn't handle, or destroy with the 20 at my house. At work, I've maxed out the 40, and the parts just sat there laughing at us. I found that quite rude. That said, it was a 3.5" diameter shaft, with a 16" diameter 4" thick gear that had been shrink fit in place. A couple weeks later, the engineer that designed it, decided he wanted the gear moved a 1/4" for clearance in the machine... Not something most normal people will ever have to deal with. Sent it out to a shop with some really massive machines, and they didn't blink an eye.

I picked 50 as my target simply due to the few I've run across. Build quality has been good, and they're big, so there's more room on the beams to setup . Again, I haven't made a study of them, but I haven't run across smaller presses with a movable ram, which also makes me think it would be easier to set some odd/larger pieces set up. What really concerns me with my 20 is when you really load it up, and the beams start bending, you're storing a whole lot of energy. When the two parts finally move, the movement is more violent as the beams spring back. I guess I could probably live happily with a 20 ton, but with a better quality frame.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2023 2:34 pm
by Eugen
When I was looking at presses on the local marketplace I was quite surprised by the frame build and thought "wow, that does 30 tonnes?!" It's good to see that my concerns reflect in your experience. If you had the time, I'm sure you have the tooling and skills to beef up your frame. But then, you guys in the US have access to so much more vintage, quality tooling, it's probably not really worth diy.

The other three rods are re-bushed too. Now waiting for the reamer.

2590EDC8-E884-4780-8A3C-5D7CD3754A3E.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:00 am
by Eugen
Continuing the one man show here. For your entertainment, behold the press pressing with pressure :geek:

https://vimeo.com/849472798


Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:22 am
by Spike188
@Eugen I love your little press fabrication. It is fitting that you used Case parts in the build. The GT lift plate is one item that is recognizable.

Ingenious!

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:20 am
by thebuildist
Very nicely banged -together press, Eugen! I love it.

Bob

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:48 am
by Eugen
Spike188 wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:22 am @Eugen I love your little press fabrication. It is fitting that you used Case parts in the build. The GT lift plate is one item that is recognizable.

Ingenious!
Thanks Eugene! It's called a "lift" plate for good reason. You saw how it lifts :D

For the Canadians here, I'm really pleased with this 12 ton bottle from PA. I got it on sale for less than $30 and it's the type that can be used in any position, not just upright; it's small enough to handle and take places yet strong. Together with the little welded contraption it makes a nice mini press. As they say, it ain't stupid if it works. :cheers:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 12:50 pm
by thebuildist
I've never even heard of a bottle jack that works in any position.

I've torn Jack's apart and modified them to work upside down but I've never seen one that doesn't care.

Bob

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 1:13 pm
by Eugen
thebuildist wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 12:50 pm I've never even heard of a bottle jack that works in any position.

I've torn Jack's apart and modified them to work upside down but I've never seen one that doesn't care.

Bob
Maybe I interpreted the "multi-position" in the title too enthusiastically. But it does work horizontally as well as vertically. Not sure about upside down. Hopefully I didn't mislead you guys. :109:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 2:47 pm
by thebuildist
I'm not throwing out a challenge. Maybe they have figured out a way to make it work in any position. I've never even heard of one that work sideways. So that's still pretty cool no matter what.

Bob

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 8:31 pm
by Eugen
Reaming the bushings was quite nerve wrecking. As @Spike188 said, you need to worry about the hole being true, that is, parallel to the crankshaft. I had other worries besides that. This reamer is the absolute cheapest at $100. Logically the build quality is not the best. After it arrived I took it all apart and inspected it. The grooves for the cutting blades were quite rough and had some swarf from the manufacturing process. The cutting blades did not seem made with a lot of precision. I washed it well in diesel fuel and tested it. Took me a while to get the adjustment dialled in, but eventually I got the hang of it and managed to get all four bushings reamed. I didn't want to risk and cut too far so I went with very small increments, making sure the reaming turns were smooth and straight, with no chatter. The best feel for it seemed to be like a beard shaving sound, a schrrrrrr. It did not feel like cutting, more like two surfaces gliding with some friction. I kept on trying its assigned pin until it fit with friction. I used a little abrasive to finish. The clearance the measured within spec between 0.0008 and 0.0014. @Spike188 , if it'll just knock when starting and work for 39 years I'll be happy.

ACA0F8B6-E3FE-4D17-A12F-2A2E4327576F.jpeg

https://vimeo.com/849634605


Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 8:52 pm
by propane1
No oil on that while doing it. Just wondering. Ya, don’t mind me, I know nothing, just asking.
Gunna work great Eugen.

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 9:09 pm
by Eugen
propane1 wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 8:52 pm No oil on that while doing it. Just wondering. Ya, don’t mind me, I know nothing, just asking.
Gunna work great Eugen.

Noel
Yes I put oil of course, lots. :D

If the bushing were sinthered bronze I'd have not used oil. They seem to be made of an yellow reddish alloy, some sort of brass. They shave nicely and I oiled the reamer on every adjustment.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:46 am
by Eugen
A very rainy day. I had plans on getting the block ready for the sleeves but I can't do that in the rain. To feel like I'm doing something I just put the rings on the pistons. 🤷‍♂️

6E8FB108-DFB3-433D-9D1B-DABC143A0838.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 12:40 pm
by Chad
Nice to see the progress you're making Eugen! Great build with the press.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 12:25 am
by Eugen
Thanks @Chad !

Today I made a little more progress. Decided to switch my attention to less pleasant work. Wet sleeves need to have good seal both at the bottom and top. The bottom of the sleeve has two o-rings, but the surface of the block where the o-rings touch needs to be clean and smooth. Spent quite some time with the wire wheel on top of the block and the inner surfaces.

Also wire wheeled all the sleeves.
Top of the block. Sleeves get inserted in those holes.
Top of the block. Sleeves get inserted in those holes.
That shinier inner surface is where the sleeve seals. Lots of gunk there.
That shinier inner surface is where the sleeve seals. Lots of gunk there.
More of that.
More of that.
This is where the sleeve mates with the top of the block. Previous owner had sealed here with orange gunk.
This is where the sleeve mates with the top of the block. Previous owner had sealed here with orange gunk.

In the evening I needed to work on something a little more pleasant. Put the valves in head 1.
No idea what all those little gaskets are for.
No idea what all those little gaskets are for.
One head got valves installed.
One head got valves installed.
Also re-faced the valves for head 2 but ran out of time. Will continue next week.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 7:20 am
by RoamingGnome
Great progress photos @Eugen, Is it possible the little bag of copper washers / seals is for the fuel system? Copper washers for the tips of the injectors is pretty common...

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 7:55 am
by Spike188
@Eugen you are at point where I start to worry about dirt contamination after reassembly. I have started using large garbage bags to shield finished blocks and heads and other things. I started ou doing engines in a shop with a powdery dirt floor.

One of these days you well get to hear it purr.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:43 am
by Eugen
@RoamingGnome the little bag came as part of the head gasket kit. I have checked the parts diagram and list for the head in the manual and still could not identify them. 🤷‍♂️Sometimes the number of parts help. In the same bag were 8 tiny rubber seals which are the valve stem seals. They need to be installed on a groove on the stem about 1/8 lower than the groove on which the valve keepers sit, and will then be located between the valve rotator and stem. I don't really understand their purpose.

In the same small pack there are even two tiny o-rings, of about 1/8 ID. So, one per head. 4 copper washers, two per head. And four tiny white plastic rings. No idea 🤷‍♂️.

@Spike188 indeed, the head made it into a big, new garbage bag waiting reassembly. The top of the block is also covered.

Good thoughts guys, thank you!

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:41 pm
by Eugen
As I avoid working on Sundays it was family time. But I forgot to mention something yesterday. I was reading the service manual section on the head and came across the torque sequence and value.
Screenshot 2023-07-30 at 22.31.54.png
I had mentioned before that my largest torque wrench goes only up to 150 ft lbs and it wasn't suitable for even the main bearing bolts which need to be tightened to 155 ft lbs. Dave said I could borrow his 200 ft lbs wrench, but when I saw the head bolts torque of 210 ft lbs I knew i was in trouble. So I started looking for a not very costly solution, and ended up ordering this. Has really good reviews, and it should be useful around the shop.
Screenshot 2023-07-30 at 22.37.25.png

I'll report on how well it works, or not, when it arrives. I like the fact that you can use an extension on the ratchet. Another day, another tool I guess. :65:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 12:45 am
by Spike188
@Eugen I am working in Big Smoke Monday. I have a 1/2" drive 250lb or a 1" drive 600 lb "click" torque wrench you can barrow if you want.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 6:13 am
by Toolslinger
I suspect we've all played that game.... Buy a torque wrench, and think you're set... Next bolt you have to do is always 10# more than what you just bought... Next thing you know, you've got 6 torque wrenches...

If you need to go over 750#, I want to see that setup. I had to put 500# on a nut once, and it was about all I could do with my 3/4" split beam that goes up to 600#. If I had to max it out, I'd need someone else hauling on the wrench with me. (and a better socket, because I was terrified the one on that 500# nut was about to let go, and send me for a ride)

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 8:28 am
by RoamingGnome
Wow - @Eugen you are really starting to add some fancy tools to your collection :thumbsup:

Another option if you need to go crazy with torquing things is to get a simple torque multiplier -
TorqueMultiplier.png
there are a couple of different styles - this is the traditional style I'm used to, there is another one intended for lug nuts on trucks/tractors

There are also other really fancy tools for torquing that might be available for rent if you have an industrial tool rental place nearby.
RAD gun.png
The newest greatest torquing tool when I was working for CAT was a battery powered "B-RAD torque wrench" - different models could take you all the way up to 11,000 lbft of torque in something the size of a really large cordless drill... Punch in the target torque, pull the trigger and listen to the gear drive hum until it stopped at the selected torque. it was great for wheel bolts on really large loaders and stuff...

...and be careful when pulling heavy torques on head bolts, over the years I've known a few co-workers that have slipped and fallen over, or worse - got hernias from pulling too hard in a horizontal direction. :O
We learned the hard way that if an engine is out of the machine and on an engine stand it was safer to roll it on it's side and be able to do those final torque pulls by pushing down on the torque wrench and letting you body weight help... nobody wants to literally bust a gut... :114:

Good luck with your head bolts, it will be awesome to see it finally come together and run like new... :worship:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 8:48 am
by Eugen
Spike188 wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2023 12:45 am @Eugen I am working in Big Smoke Monday. I have a 1/2" drive 250lb or a 1" drive 600 lb "click" torque wrench you can barrow if you want.
Thanks Eugene! I should be ok, the new tool should arrive today. I appreciate your offer! :worship:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 12:31 pm
by Eugen
Toolslinger wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2023 6:13 am I suspect we've all played that game.... Buy a torque wrench, and think you're set... Next bolt you have to do is always 10# more than what you just bought... Next thing you know, you've got 6 torque wrenches...

If you need to go over 750#, I want to see that setup. I had to put 500# on a nut once, and it was about all I could do with my 3/4" split beam that goes up to 600#. If I had to max it out, I'd need someone else hauling on the wrench with me. (and a better socket, because I was terrified the one on that 500# nut was about to let go, and send me for a ride)
I would not use this new digital tool for even 600#. The piston holding bolt on the big cylinder was spec-ed at about 1000 to 1200#. I used a 3/4 drive socket with a 1" thick 7 feet long wrecker bar to undo that bolt. Once it slipped from the bolt and bounced into my palm; was sore for 3 weeks. I roughly calculated that me on the end of that bar would be just a little more than 1000 ft lbs. I have undone/done it a couple of times, it seemed to me close or the same as tight as when I first took it off. Good enough for me. I honestly hope this is the last big tractor I work on. It'll be sold once I'm done with it.

@RoamingGnome yes, I was looking long and hard at the torque multiplier but once I found this adapter that goes up to 750# I saw no real reason to pay 3x more for that. The other toy you point to... yeah, nice! Maybe if I win the lottery eh? :giggle:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 1:03 pm
by RoamingGnome
@Eugen I'll be looking forward to your review of the torque adapter, that seems like a good solution for the torque you need, often the problem with torque multipliers is where to anchor the reaction arm.
Nothing more exciting than having the reaction arm slip when its under a lot of load. :cuss:
The automatic ones (pneumatic, hydraulic or electrical) are nice in a production setting, but so expen$ive that you can almost see the supervisor cry when they are abused :hitsfan:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 7:07 am
by Eugen
To be honest, if money was not and issue there would be a torque multiplier in the shop too. The digital torque adapter arrived today and I used it to tighten the main bearing bolts to 155 ft lbs. Like people described, you need to go slowly or else you can over tighten. The device has intermittent beeping just before getting to the target torque, and changes to continuous beeping when you hit the target.

Last night I ground the valve seats on head number 2 and installed the valves. Here's one of the valves to bore you a little. :D


https://vimeo.com/850415902


Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 7:52 pm
by JSinMO
I’ll have to keep that digital torque wrench in mind. So far I haven’t had the need. Good work. I didn’t find the video boring!

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 9:05 am
by Harry
Eugen nice valve installation and video. :peace: Harry

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:28 am
by Eugen
Each sleeve must needs to not be raised above the block surface more than 0.006 inches. That a what the manual say.
3A7AC30D-288A-4851-A213-CFEEC02A9994.jpeg
I've been thinking about how to measure this for some time, as I don't have what they call a bridge micrometer. This is the contraption I came with last night.
3482D9CA-DFE7-4BE9-826D-828E3F2B7B30.jpeg
726285CE-4015-4571-99A3-AB7B8900A8BF.jpeg
A dial capable of 0.01 mm, on a flat powerful magnet on the block. Rotating the magnet on the surface will drop the dial tip from the edge of the sleeve to the block. As it is metric the deviation between the sleeve edge top and block will have to be below 0.152 mm. I tested this with a feeler gauge. It tends to measure a little more than the thickness of the feeler gauge, but I think I can work with this.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:48 am
by Spike188
Eugen, your method will work. The variation you are seeing on the mic could be from the 0.01 mm gradation. A micrometer with a 0.001 mm gradation has a small plus/minus variation. I use both depending on the application. Another test is place the 0.006" feeler gauge against the sleeve. If it catches the lip of the sleeve then the sleeve is protruding above 0.000". Drag your fingernail across the sleeve to the gauge. If it catches on the feeler gauge, then the sleeve is below 0.006". Going the other way, if the fingernail catches on the sleeve then the sleeve is to high.
This is a simple cheat when there is a lack of tools or a mistrust of the tool in hand.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 2:55 pm
by Eugen
That is a really nice trick, haven't thought of it myself. :thumbsup:

The sleeves are in. I suppose being the old sleeves, and they all use 0.005 shims, they fit nicely right in. The manual calls for petroleum jelly on the lower o-ring seals. Now that's something I didn't have and I tasked my :wife: to buy some from the drug store. They required a decent amount of pressing down but nothing exaggerated.
16ED2D9F-CD16-411D-A924-5E680A550DF9.jpeg
On to the pistons and rods. Not sure I get time today though...

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 6:17 pm
by Eugen
Was able to get those pistons in. The rod caps are not torqued yet, next week. These will have been the biggest pistons I ever worked on.
25274FB3-7E0F-4098-A82B-CF366B92C870.jpeg
ED462ECB-359A-429D-B5DD-82A0A914C4E1.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:14 pm
by JSinMO
It’s looking good! Excellent progress! I’m sure you’ll be happy when you get the engine buttoned up. :highfive:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 12:21 am
by Eugen
I might be happy and terrified at the same time. Terrified to turn it on :D

So now I got the oil pump to deal with. When I took it off some thin washers fell off. At the time I didn't pay much attention to it. Turns out they are important.

3FD552E7-BF5E-4AAB-8F93-8AEE71BC056F.jpeg
DDDECFEA-EFDF-45E1-91FA-CE68D91C8A82.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 6:58 am
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen Try installing the pump and measuring the back lash without shims . Being an older engine there maybe enough wear on the gears to give you the lash you need .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:08 am
by Spike188
@Eugen at first read of the balancer shim instalation my reaction was the same as yours. Maybe the first step would be to sort the shim washers by size. Hopefully, they will all mic at 0.005". There are 4 locations that take shims. If lady luck is with you, the number of washers will be divisible by 4. If so, then assume an equal number under each post to start. If the washer count is a deviation of of less than 4 and there are shims of various thickness then setting backlash will take more time.

Because of gear wear, there might not be a need for as many shims as originally used. With hardened gears that scenario is unlikely. Checking back lash can be measured with your dial indicator or feeler gauges.

Don't sweat it. We are pulling for you.

@DavidBarkey I see we are both having the same train of thought.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 9:07 am
by Eugen
Thanks guys! @Spike188 , good advice, I'll measure the shims. Just by looking at them they are 0.005 and at least one is 0.010. What puzzled me was how to move the crankshaft gear so smoothly (doesn't turn easily) and I also don't have a proper dial indicator magnet stand. Indeed, I hope I can fit the feeler gauge between the gears. :cheers:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 9:55 am
by DavidBarkey
If you don't already have , get plastic gauge for checking bearing clearance . Put a piece across the gear and a piece of fishing line parallel to it . The fishing line will centre the balancer gear to the crank gear . Clamp down , remove and read the plastic gauge on both sides at the centre point of the tooth and add them together to get the total lash .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 10:06 am
by Eugen
Sounds good Dave but I don't have that plastic gauge. I'll go search to buy some.

The blue one is 0.004-0.009 so that's the only one I could use. But nowhere to find locally. We'll see...

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 12:36 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 10:06 am Sounds good Dave but I don't have that plastic gauge. I'll go search to buy some.

The blue one is 0.004-0.009 so that's the only one I could use. But nowhere to find locally. We'll see...
I have some , come get it . I have half a length (6") been sitting in the tool box for a long time .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:09 pm
by Eugen
Thanks Dave! I will come by if the feeler gage trick doesn't work. :cheers:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 11:47 pm
by Eugen
Tonight I was able to put in a little work on the backhoe. Torqued the rod cap bolts to 100 ft lbs. The manual says 95 to 105, so I chose the middle. Was a bit hard to get enough leverage for the torque wrench, especially the cap that's above the front cross member, but it got done.

Also started working on taking the 444 mowing deck apart, to change the bearings, but that's for another thread.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 7:30 pm
by Eugen
Get the service manual they said. It'll tell you everything they said.

Now which is the timing mark? :124:

Edit: something I did not take time to describe was how I got the balancer up on the engine. I was not able to do it with the motorcycle jack. Too short. Then I lay under the tractor and lifted the balancer with two hands sort of like a bench press, and tried to hold it with one hand so I could put the bolts in. No chance there, my triceps were not up to the task. Lastly I used a piece of 4x4 on my belly and the balancer on it. Pushed abdomen up and held balancer in position while putting the bolts in. Phew! Done.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:17 pm
by Spike188
OH NO! It is obvious, the manual said. I usually take lots of pictures on teardown. Then find myself in your position, and it would be the one photo that is missing. :headbash:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:17 pm
by Spike188
OH NO! It is obvious, the manual said. I usually take lots of pictures on teardown. Then find myself in your position, and it would be the one photo that is missing. :headbash:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 8:46 pm
by JSinMO
Im looking closely at the pictures and I don’t think the marks on the silver gear are the timing marks. The look like chatter marks from something or someone. The one on the brown gear looks more like a timing mark. I think I’d really search around on the silver gear for other marks.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:12 pm
by Eugen
The problem is that I cannot find any other marks and went around twice. Some people say if piston 1 and 4 are at TDC the weights of the balancer should be at the bottom. More :writing: needed. :rolleyes:

This'll from yesterday's tractors

IMG_0603.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:57 pm
by JSinMO
I’m afraid you’re right, more study is needed. Since I don’t know this machine or pump, this is a complete shot in the dark, but, seeing the other things you’ve uncovered as you have gone through it, is it at all possible that silver gear could have been turned around in the past and the marks are on the other side of it? Sorry if I’m muddying the water worse that it already was it was just a thought and a guess. I know you’ll find the answer, it might just take a little more aggravation.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2023 10:48 am
by Eugen
According to theory when piston 2 is at TDC the balancer counterweights should be at rest, that is, hanging freely at the bottom. I thinks that assumes the tractor is reasonably level. So I lowered the balancer enough as to allow the lower gear to disengage from the upper crankshaft gear so that counterweights would freely find their low resting position. Looking on the other side of the crankshaft gear, the one harder to see which I had not looked at before, shows this
IMG_0623.jpeg

Rejoice when reality confirms the theory.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2023 3:18 pm
by RoamingGnome
That looks more better ! :thumbsup:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2023 4:50 pm
by Eugen
Placed the heads on gaskets and hand tightened 4 head bolts. It was not easy to do this, each head is really heavy. What I did was put the head on first. Then lift the head and place gasket partly in. Then crawled palms in under the head and set the gasket just right so the fire ring goes around the sleeve protrusion. Then carefully slide one hand out and keep the gasket in place with the other. Then the other hand out.
IMG_0628.jpeg

The head bolts stat finger tight until all the manifolds are torqued.
IMG_0629.jpeg
Started cleaning the water manifold and thermostat housing. New thermostat too.

Done for today, will continue on Wednesday.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2023 6:23 pm
by JSinMO
Well done! It’s starting to look like an engine again! :thumbsup:
Your last couple of updates gave me the thought there’s really no need to the gym for a workout when you have old tractors! :D

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:55 pm
by Eugen
This week I'm on staycation. Yet there are so many things to do it seems hard to find more time to work on the backhoe. If you're wondering why I no longer work in it late at night, it's because I made some changes to my lifestyle and am using that time for something much more important.

Anyhow, back to the manifolds, because that's where I'm at now.

Cleaned up the mounting surface of the air intake manifold. It's aluminum and I was very gentle with the wire wheel. There's no rust so the rest of the surface will stay as is.
IMG_0643.jpeg

The exhaust manifold is cast iron and there was deeper rust pitting all over. After the wire wheel some krud kutter and then into a bag for 30 minutes to give the phosphoric acid some time to act.

IMG_0645.jpeg

After that a little high heat paint is not a bad idea. Because life isn't about being perfect. A little better than before now.

IMG_0652.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 4:24 pm
by DavidBarkey
how is the exhaust manifold for flat?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 4:36 pm
by Eugen
DavidBarkey wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 4:24 pm how is the exhaust manifold for flat?
Ahm... Let me get back to you on this one :rofl:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 5:35 pm
by Eugen
@DavidBarkey I don't have a machinist straight edge but according to this it's not bent.


IMG_0657.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 6:01 pm
by Spike188
@Eugen That is straight enough in my books.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 6:53 pm
by Eugen
@Spike188 We are in agreement here. 😊

Water, intake, and exhaust manifolds are in and torqued. Sometimes losing or misplacing the old nuts and bolts turns out to be a good think. They were all 3/8-16 so a visit to the local "hone deepl" as my kids say fixed that problem. All new and galvanized.

IMG_0658.jpeg
IMG_0659.jpeg
My new assistant by the way:
IMG_0662.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:47 pm
by Chad
Coming along great Eugen!

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:28 pm
by DavidBarkey
Eugen wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 5:35 pm @DavidBarkey I don't have a machinist straight edge but according to this it's not bent.



IMG_0657.jpeg
Good . the only thing that should be warped is a mechanics sense of hummer.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:48 pm
by thebuildist
Awwwwww....

Some bunny loves you!

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2023 11:20 am
by Eugen
Just tightened the head bolts. With the engine in the tractor and the loader down the space is tight, not so easy to get leverage but eventually I found various positions for leverage. Used the adapter set at 210 ft lbs, had to go slow and pay attention to the long beep. Still the display shows peak torque at 220. Figures...


https://vimeo.com/855990894


Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2023 11:53 am
by Spike188
Eugen wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2023 11:20 am Just tightened the head bolts. With the engine in the tractor and the loader down the space is tight, not so easy to get leverage but eventually I found various positions for leverage. Used the adapter set at 210 ft lbs, had to go slow and pay attention to the long beep. Still the display shows peak torque at 220. Figures...


https://vimeo.com/855990894

Eugen, I am impressed by the way you have modified the breakover bar to work with a crowbar. You are making so much progress.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2023 1:00 pm
by Eugen
Hehe, as much as I'd like to take credit for that, I can't. The 3/4 drive breaker bar head was on clearance at Princess Auto. When I was working on the big hydraulic cylinder I figured I could use this head with the 7ft long 1" thick bar, which I did. For smaller stuff the 3/4 bar is good enough. Some moneys was saved too by getting just the head. 🤷‍♂️

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2023 2:41 pm
by Eugen
Sludge be gone! Cleaned up the oil pan. There was no need to wire wheel more than the perimeter but I just couldn't stop myself.

IMG_0678.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2023 4:57 pm
by JSinMO
Dang! That’s so clean it’s almost a shame to put oil in it! :D
You said that torque adapter shows a max of 220 and you had it set to 210. Do you feel it was giving an accurate reading of the force you were applying or is it off a little?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2023 10:25 pm
by Eugen
I don't know Jeff, it's supposed to be up to 2% accurate. I'm thinking the sensor records the peak torque it sees and maybe the bolt doesn't tighten in small torque increments. In any case, I'm not worried. The service manual has a torque chart and it says 200 - 240 ft lbs for grade 8, size 5/8 bolts. Even if it went a little over 210 I think it's fine.
IMG_0691.jpeg

Had some more time today so I cleaned and installed the push rods and rockers

IMG_0685.jpeg

With the oil pan so clean I thought I'd try to install it. @JSinMO , indeed I have no plans of getting that oil pan dirty. :giggle:

If you remember this operation needs the nose (radiator enclosure) and the engine lifted up front. Used the 644 loader again to lift the nose and then the 12 ton jack to lift the engine.

But when I looked more carefully I realized that the oil pump pipe was not routed correctly and the pan wouldn't fit. This is because it got bent/ straightened when I too the balancer off. Oh well, it's 1/4 inch OD steel pipe but quite malleable so after taking it off again, I bent it to route it in such way that it would not interfere with rotating crankshaft or the gears. Here's a picture of the correct routing in case some poor soul makes the same mistake as I.
IMG_0686.jpeg
IMG_0687.jpeg

Now the pan needs to get ready: a bead of permatex black to stick the gasket on the pan.
IMG_0688.jpeg
And a bead on the gasket before sliding it under the engine above that cross member. Had to lift the front of the engine quite a bit and it was still a tight space to wiggle the pan in. But it worked, and the oil pan bolts got screwed in and torqued.

Was a long day but the progress is satisfying. :cheers:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:30 am
by DavidBarkey
:clap: :thumbsup:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:13 am
by Harry
Eugen you have come a long way on the progress of this project. Meticulously cleaning, checking, torquing and assembling everything. I’m sure you will be smiling from ear to to ear when you crank this engine and it starts. Especially when you get to use it and move some dirt. A feeling of satisfaction and accomplishment like no other. Congratulations and thanks for documenting and posting all the details. :clap: :thumbsup: :peace: Harry

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:02 am
by Eugen
Ouch :109:

IMG_0692.jpeg
Hopefully I torqued the rods right.

Still a ways to turning it on though. Adjust valves, reassembly of injectors, all injection fuel lines, hoses, radiator, engine mount, nose. Then the manual calls for one hour running under load and then retorque head bolts and rockers nuts while engine is hot.

Meanwhile nobody wants the Johnny bucket project tractor so I'm thinking of fixing it 🙄

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 7:53 am
by Harry
I see a big hole in the block. Is this on the 680E? :hm: :peace: Harry

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 9:27 am
by Eugen
Harry wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 7:53 am I see a big hole in the block. Is this on the 680E? :hm: :peace: Harry
No, just me joking around. Hopefully this won't happen to me.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 6:35 pm
by Eugen
I won't bore you with the details, but today I tried to deal with all those little things I mentioned in my previous post. Around 5:30 it was time to look for the key. After some fuel priming... it started. Here's the second start.


https://vimeo.com/856574815





More work is awaiting, but now a full hour of working it under load is needed. Not today.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 6:40 pm
by RoamingGnome
WooHoo! :clap:
Looking Good @Eugen :thumbsup:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 7:53 pm
by JSinMO
:congrats: :69: :thumbsup: :highfive: !!! Starts easy and sounds good! Great job! How the oil pressure? I always get nervous until I see that needle climb!

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 7:56 pm
by Spike188
@Eugen Woot, That has to be a great feeling.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 8:09 pm
by MattA
Nice work Eugen. The smokescreen is gone 👍

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 8:49 pm
by DavidBarkey
runs to nice . how you going to keep to mosketoes away now .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 9:10 pm
by Timj
:worship: :clap: :clap: sounds good, good job :thumbsup: :highfive:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 9:34 pm
by propane1
Nice. Love the sound. :thumbsup:

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 9:55 pm
by Eugen
Thanks guys!

@JSinMO it doesn't have an oil pressure dial if you can believe. :sigh: It only has a low oil pressure light which never worked while I had it. Haven't run it but for about 30 seconds for now. I intend to fix that light and maybe even replace the oil pressure switch with a sensor later on.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:54 am
by Harry
To crank it and start so easy, then just idle with no hesitation is exciting. Cloud Nine! :worship: :69: :peace: Harry

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 9:44 am
by Chad
Well done! A great feeling I'm sure. Sounds great.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 1:14 pm
by Eugen
So what about thats oil pressure? Thank you Jeff for giving some home work :D

As you guys know I pulled out some stumps and dug a 100 feet long trench for the neighbour never having any real confirmation of oil pressure or engine cooling. :109: Yeah, sometimes I just pretend it's all working until it doesn't. There now, how's that for a confession? :blush:

The truth is I always meant to go through the instrument panel at some point; it's in all kind of bad shape. Found some missing connection which I fixed with some soldered wire, bad light bulbs, etc.
IMG_0719.jpeg
But the real culprit as far as oil pressure goes is the oil pressure switch. That switch should be normally closed. What this means is that at rest, the light bulb gets on one side 24 volts, and at the other end it gets zero volts through the oil pressure switch, which is like a wire connecting the bulb to the tractor chassis which is in turn connected to the negative lead of the battery. When the tractor is running, if there's enough pressure, the switch interrupts the circuit going to open state. Then the light bulb does not light, because it's no longer connected to the chassis.

My switch is stuck in the open state. Easily tested with a multimeter set on measuring resistance. New one ordered.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 1:34 pm
by RoamingGnome
Eugen wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2023 1:14 pm " Yeah, sometimes I just pretend it's all working until it doesn't. There now, how's that for a confession? :blush:
I think that's a very common trait - 1 part optimism + 1 part wishful thinking - just ask my :wife:

I question the oil pressure light on/off :letmesee: - is it supposed to be on when the tractor is running? I would have thought it might only come on when there was a problem - kind of like the battery light coming on when the alternator/generator isn't producing enough volts/amps

Something to consider could be adding a Tee where the pressure switch is - then you could have an actual oil pressure gauge in addition to the light

Regardless... Congrats on getting it to run ! :worship:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 3:19 pm
by Eugen
Gerry, sorry if I confused the issue. Indeed, if the oil pressure isn't high enough the light is on. That happens when you turn the ignition key to on but don't start the tractor yet. Because the light gets voltage and the pressure switch isn't yet actuated.

My lack of patience prevailed and just hooked up a new oil pressure gage I had in the shed. This confirms that the oil pressure is fine IMHO.

https://vimeo.com/856874757


Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 4:38 pm
by propane1
Sounds great and starts nice. Good oil pressure. Once the oil is hot it may lower some.

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 9:06 pm
by JSinMO
RoamingGnome wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2023 1:34 pm
Eugen wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2023 1:14 pm " Yeah, sometimes I just pretend it's all working until it doesn't. There now, how's that for a confession? :blush:
I think that's a very common trait - 1 part optimism + 1 part wishful thinking - just ask my :wife:

I’m afraid I’m in that club too :109: If you don’t see it, it must be ok right? :D

@Eugen im sorry, I didn’t mean to give you more work to do. Although now that you know it has almost 60 pounds at idle, you should feel quite confident in your work and the health of that engine! Noel is right it will probably drop of some once the oil is hot but it should still be plenty of pressure.

Almost ready to stop working on it and start working with it! :highfive:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 11:09 pm
by Eugen
Nothing to be sorry for @JSinMO, in fact I thank you for reminding me as it was on my to do list. My plan was to address a number of these little things once the major issue was fixed. The next priority is the 1h under load but I'd like to make sure cooling was working before that. Any advice on how to troubleshoot it is appreciated.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 12:00 am
by JSinMO
I’m sure some of the other fellas here can give you a more comprehensive or maybe better plan but I thought I would just make a list of some things.

Test the thermostat to make sure it opens.

Check the radiator hoses. If there’s any question id replace them. Cheap insurance so you don’t blow an old hose and lose the coolant.

Flush the radiator and block until you see clear water coming out. It can be surprising how much rust comes out of the block!

I’m not familiar with this engine, but I assume it has freeze plugs in the block. Check them to see if there loose or rotten.

You could do a leak down test on the system but that may not be necessary. I usually rent tools like that from o’Reilly’s down here.

Make sure your temp gauge works!

Filler up and run it!

On Herbie the truck I used a temperature gun and took readings around the block and heads just to make sure I didn’t have any hot spots.


These are just some things that came to mind and I have no doubt I’m forgetting something. I’m sure I didn’t tell you anything new but I find have a list is helpful to me!

Anyway that ends todays cooling system rambling, I hope it helps!

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 6:29 am
by Eugen
Thanks Jeff! The thermostat is new. The block was cleaned when I took the sleeves out. I wish I had thought to flush the radiator but I didn't and now it's full of coolant again. But, there wasn't much sludge when I took out the coolant initially. Good idea with the temp gun, I'll do it. The temperature gauge does not work. 🤷‍♂️

:cheers:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 10:08 am
by Eugen
One surprise today. I thought I go and get that temperature sending unit out of the water manifold to test it with a multimeter. The idea is that you put an ohm meter in the kOhm range and measure the resistance of the sensor while cold. As you heat it up the ohm meter should show a continuously changing temperature. But the sensor seemed really stuck in the manifold and I didn't want to force it so I got the torch out and heated the manifold area around the temp sending unit. Then I heard a clink in my head :idea: "why don't I check the gauge?" Hehe sure enough
IMG_0733.jpeg
IMG_0731.jpeg
IMG_0732.jpeg
Fine, so the sensor and gauge work. Now it would be nice to get confirmation that the coolant travels around, that is, pump pushes, thermostat opens, and the radiator is not clogged.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 5:22 pm
by Eugen
Simple things first. Topped up the radiator with coolant and guess what? Now cooling works perfectly. Used the backhoe for about 1/2 hour and the water manifold did not get over about 186F or 86C. Measured the temperature with the heat gun in various places of the cooling system and nowhere was the temperature higher than that. It just stayed there, and the radiator started to get warm so the coolant is circulating. This is a relief.

Just pushed the overgrowth on the side of the road next to us digging in a little, this machine is really strong.
IMG_0736.jpeg
IMG_0735.jpeg

Next task is to heat it up again and then re-torque the head bolts and rockers nuts.


Part of me is in disbelief that this ended up working and I thank God for this.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 5:41 pm
by Eugen
Question for you guys: what could this part be? It has a wire going in and a thin nylon tube (broken now) that goes back to the air tank. It sits under the head light in front of the radiator, behind the grill which is now off.

IMG_0737.jpeg
IMG_0738.jpeg

Looking through the parts manual I just found it. It's the cold start help. A can of starter fluid can be hooked up to it and there's a button in the cabin for giving a shot in cold weather I guess.

IMG_0739.jpeg
IMG_0740.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 9:11 pm
by JSinMO
Eugen wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2023 5:22 pm Part of me is in disbelief that this ended up working and I thank God for this.
This struck home for me. I’m not afraid to admit I’m more often than not filled with self doubt and low confidence when I start a project. There are times I really have to make myself more forward.

You took on a big job with this tractor, and did great work! I honestly never considered that you wouldn’t get it going.
I try not to be prideful but there are times it’s deserved. You should feel some pride at your accomplishment, and I hope you do!

I’m looking forward to some posts of this thing doing some work!

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 10:12 pm
by Harry
Great job Eugen! Now it’s Play Ball, let the games begin. The projects that you can do with this machine will be unbelievable. :highfive: :thumbsup: :69: :peace: Harry

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:19 am
by Eugen
Old switch, new switch, oily switch, shiny switch.


IMG_0745.jpeg
IMG_0746.jpeg


New wire connector, idiot light working as it should. Little things taken care of, little by little the old girl's getting in better shape.

I'll soon start working on the smaller Case brothers and thus be back to the forum theme of Case garden tractors :D

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 1:57 pm
by Harry
Eugen wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:19 am Old switch, new switch, oily switch, shiny switch.



IMG_0745.jpeg

IMG_0746.jpeg



New wire connector, idiot light working as it should. Little things taken care of, little by little the old girl's getting in better shape.

I'll soon start working on the smaller Case brothers and thus be back to the forum theme of Case garden tractors :D
I’ve heard said “life gets in the way.” I say “other projects get in the way.” It just seems when I start making good head way on a GT project, something else comes up, sometimes something else breaks. Life in the fast lane as they say! :cool: :peace: Harry

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:59 pm
by Eugen
That's right @Harry , it is what it is.


After our zoo trip today I finally set on getting those head bolts re-torqued. Got the tools ready and used the backhoe for about 40 minutes just pushing dirt around, until it got to operating temperature. According to the manual each bolt needs to be undone quarter turn and then torqued to spec 210 ft lbs, while the engine is still hot, so I knew I had to work pretty fast.
I quickly found our why they use the special wrench for this operation.

IMG_0773.jpeg

Because most head bolts are covered by either rockers or fuel return lines. Not having that tool I quickly took those off. And the muffler, to get enough space for leverage. Good thing about this engine is that it doesn't get cold fast, it's massive. Worked as fast as I could. Then assembled it and adjusted the valves again. Tomorrow I'll do some more tests.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:11 pm
by Eugen
The saga has not ended. The driver side bucket tilt cylinder has started to leak badly.

IMG_0813.jpeg

Took it off the arm and ordered a seal kit.

IMG_0814.jpeg

More excitement awaits..

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2023 10:18 pm
by Eugen
A few minutes later this grade 8, 1000 ft lbs tight piston bolt's staring at me defiantly. And I'm staring at it in defeat, not even having a 1-1/2 socket. Fine, we'll fight another day.

IMG_0816.jpeg

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2023 4:51 am
by Toolslinger
1000 #/ft? Geesh, I don't know if my big sockets, or wrenches would stand up to that...

I just picked up a pretty full set of 3/4" drive sockets at an estate auction for $30... All good, older, US made brands. I was really shocked that almost all of them were 12 point, rather than 6. By the time I would want to go to 3/4" drive, I know I wouldn't want to just be depending on the corners of the nut... Perhaps I'm wrong... Never really had all that much call for tools up in those size ranges, but I sure couldn't pass up that buy.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2023 7:01 am
by Spike188
Eugen, Is the bolt seized in with thread locker and needing about 300 deg to free up?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:39 am
by Eugen
@Toolslinger yeah, I wish to have found a quality set at a low price, but something similar happened to me. A local tool shop similar to your HF had a whole bunch of 3/4 drive sockets on clearance, prices between 1.99 and 4 dollars. Bought all kind of sizes, except a few including the 1.5". All my 3/4 drive sockets are 12 point too, and I had similar thoughts to yours.

One of the dipper cylinders I had done last year had an even bigger bolt, using the 1-7/8 socket. Without warming it up good with the propane torch the 1" bar was bending and the bolt did not give in. After warming it up it came undone, with good effort though.
Screenshot 2023-08-31 at 09.33.22.png

@Spike188 , the manual does not specify thread locker. I think it's just the big torque specified for these large grade 8 bolts.

I stand corrected though, it's the 1-1/8 bolt that's spec'ed at 1000-1200 ft lbs. I read the service manual last night and this 1" bolt is spec-ed at around 600 ft lbs. Walk in the park eh? :D

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2023 1:10 pm
by Toolslinger
Eugen wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:39 am @Toolslinger yeah, I wish to have found a quality set at a low price, but something similar happened to me. A local tool shop similar to your HF had a whole bunch of 3/4 drive sockets on clearance, prices between 1.99 and 4 dollars. Bought all kind of sizes, except a few including the 1.5". All my 3/4 drive sockets are 12 point too, and I had similar thoughts to yours.
My father picked up a full set of 3/4" drive sockets years ago, likely either at auction, or a flea market. They're "SAE", as opposed to "Metric", and due to their price point they don't actually fit either format correctly. They're the thing you use to hammer on to something that's aready chewed up, and you're out of other options... While they don't fit anything, and have generally been in that abuse catagory, we've never actually broken one, which I always found strange, and mildly impressive. They're heading out the door to the auction house next time I do a drop.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2023 1:20 pm
by Eugen
I have heard of sockets and wrenches nominally the right size but so badly made they're either slightly smaller or slightly larger. Hasn't happened to me yet, even with those from the local hw store. Was pleasantly surprised when I got these large ones on clearance, all either Crescent or Dewalt. I know these names are not the highest quality but they do give one hope it's not down at the bottom either. Next to impossible to find here old USA made sockets and wrenches at any price. Consider yourself blessed with that set! :cheers:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2023 8:28 pm
by Eugen
After a trip to the local store after work today a 1.5" socket made it to the drawer.

Not having a big vice or a shop, my preferred method of getting the piston retaining bolt undone is with the rod in its original spot on the device if possible. This one is secure here and ready for action.
IMG_0824.jpeg
Didn't even try without heat. Spent 2-3 minutes heating the area with the propane torch.
IMG_0826.jpeg

The bolt came off much easier than I thought. After that it took another couple of minutes to push the gland off the rod using a copper hammer.

Inspecting the gland showed the obvious initial culprit: bad rod wiper seal.

IMG_0830.jpeg

It's not directly responsible for the leak. But allowing water and dirt in, the inner surfaced of the gland got rusty and crusty.

This U seal is the main means of stopping the oil under pressure from escaping next to the rod. But if it sits in a rusted groove it no longer seals and the oil seeps around it.

IMG_0832.jpeg

Scraped the groove a little as a test.
IMG_0833.jpeg

I'm going to have to restore that groove surfaced to a smooth finish. Probably with JB weld and turn smooth on the lathe. At least this is what I'm thinking at the moment, if you guys have suggestions it's much appreciated.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2023 7:22 am
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen . Is the gland cast iron or steel ?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2023 7:29 am
by Toolslinger
I'd be concerned with JB holding under hydraulic pressure, but then I've never tried it. It has surprised me before... Any chance you can find a seal that's sized such that you could just work with a cleaned up groove in the gland without adding material back in?

The Crescent, and Dewalt sockets I've come across have been pretty good actually. I did break one Crescent in the past, but honestly, I think just about any brand would have given up at the point I was at. It had held up long enough to shear the drive on the first breaker bar, and you can't ask for more than that. This is going back some now, but the Dewalts were coming out of the same foundry that makes the Proto line if I recall. I'd say either of those are major scores in the prices you noted.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:33 am
by Eugen
Toolslinger wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2023 7:29 am I'd be concerned with JB holding under hydraulic pressure, but then I've never tried it. It has surprised me before... Any chance you can find a seal that's sized such that you could just work with a cleaned up groove in the gland without adding material back in?
I don't think the hydraulic pressure works against the JB weld. I think it works actually on it, pressing it against the surface. This is what I mean
Screenshot 2023-09-01 at 11.04.14.png

The gland is cast iron, I don't want to risk adding material with the welder.

I have thought about a larger seal too, but it's something I don't know enough about, pressure calculations and largest thickness for those kind of pressures.

But now you made me think. :hm: so, the U seal is rated usually for 5000 psi. Let's say the corroded surface gets cleaned by removing 0.01 inches, and a layer of JB weld, 0.01 inches is stuck to the surface. In effect like a gasket (red line in the drawing). When the oil is pushed in the U shaped seal, the lower part of the U is pushed against the rod, while the upper part of the U is pushed against the JB weld layer. Would the oil pressure be so high as to break the bonding strength of the JB weld and oil get pushed between the JB weld layer and the gland surface?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2023 12:52 pm
by Eugen
There's a small chance I'm overthinking this. If this cylinder went to the local hydraulics shop what's the chance they'd clean up the groove and slap a new seal on it? :5:

But here is the groove now all clear of rust.

IMG_0836.jpeg
The pitting is on the lower 2/3 portion.

Incidentally the seal has an exterior ridge pushing right against the upper third of the ridge, which is not pitted. Seeing this I'm kinda tempted to leave it as is and slap the new seal in with a little jb weld all around for good measure. :geek:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2023 2:36 pm
by DavidBarkey
@Eugen Smooth out the surface the best you can without remove too much material and put a new seal with grease to slow down future rust and call her done .

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2023 2:47 pm
by Harry
I agree with David. You’ll probably never have any problems with the cylinder. :peace: Harry

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2023 3:22 pm
by Eugen
I hear you guys, we keep it simple then. :35: Waiting for the seal kit now. :sigh:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:17 pm
by Eugen
The seals arrived yesterday so I installed them all. The interesting one this time was the ptfe piston middle band that goes on top of the square rubber profile ring called the energizer. It's the yellow one you see in the image below. It's very stiff so it needs to be warmed up and stretched a tiny bit to make it to the middle of the piston. I used hot water and carefully stretched it just enough to get it on the piston. But, you also need to compress it back or else the piston won't go into the barrel. I first put a layer of electrical insulation tape and left it over night compressed by the piston ring installation tool.
IMG_0881.jpeg
Then the rod went back in its place to get the piston retaining bolt torqued.

IMG_0882.jpeg
Then in the barrel and back on the tractor.

https://vimeo.com/861496199



No leak.

I think this concludes taking care of all the major problems and a few minor ones, with this tractor. Thank you all for coming along for the ride, for your help and comments. :cheers:

:j

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:40 pm
by RoamingGnome
Looking good @Eugen - Can't wait to see some photos of you moving dirt with it ... :thumbsup:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2023 4:16 am
by Toolslinger
Eugen wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:17 pm I think this concludes taking care of all the major problems and a few minor ones, with this tractor. Thank you all for coming along for the ride, for your help and comments.
That's brave, putting that out for the universe to hear... I can just imagine the universe looking around... " Oh yea?... Sombody hold my beer... We'll see about this guy that thinks he's done..."



Congrats though! :cheers:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2023 7:21 am
by Spike188
@Eugen Well accomplished. Echoing @Toolslinger , Imany of my customers TMB machines. (Too Many Birthdays) When ask, "Isit fixed?" My response is "Temporarily, I will see you again soon."

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2023 11:05 am
by Eugen
Haha, I'm already doubting everything I did! Thanks guys! You gotta keep me on my toes. Good.

Fine, I just remembered the alternator rebuild kit that's waiting for me. Although I did fix the old alternator and it works, couldn't help myself getting the rebuild kit. 🤷‍♂️

:spin: :bee: :wave2:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2023 8:50 pm
by MattA
Do you have any projects planned for the 680E?

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:15 pm
by Eugen
@MattA , the main reason I got the backhoe was to dig the foundation for the addition we planned to build. A number of things happened that made us change plans and we're no longer going to build the addition. I think the backhoe will go on the marketplace next spring so I can use it for some small stuff here, maybe pull some stumps.

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2023 4:52 am
by propane1
Your a smart cookie Eugen. Congratulations on all the work you’ve done to it.

Hehe. Phone up the fella you bought from and tell him it’s all fixed. And for sale.

Noel

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2023 8:12 am
by Harry
Eugen, if you keep the hoe long enough I’m sure you’ll come up with projects for it. :j :peace: Harry

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2023 8:57 am
by Chad
Very impressed what you've been able to accomplish. Congrats on a job well done!

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 10:10 pm
by thebuildist
@Eugen, once you get her back up and going, maybe you and @propane1 could collaborate to whip together one of these:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sw3pO6tkjXk

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 10:14 pm
by Eugen
thebuildist wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 10:10 pm @Eugen, once you get her back up and going, maybe you and @propane1 could collaborate to whip together one of these:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sw3pO6tkjXk
That is one cool attachment! :highfive:

Re: Case 680E

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2023 5:31 am
by propane1
It is neat. That’s what I’m going to do today. Split wood.


Noel