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Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 5:03 pm
by propane1
So. This could end up being a Ramble. ! My Case 224 has the rear hydraulic pto option. The previous owner had rigged it up to run a cylinder to operate the 3 point hitch. The cylinder, lower arms and his pipe rigging are not original. I’m fairly sure.
So I want to rig up the pto to operate a wood splitter. Been on my mind files away at the back of the mind files section, since I got the tractor two years ago in August. So, just for entertainment I might try to rig it up to the old splitter.
The three point system I would say will never be used. Be cause it need the proper stuff to make it operate. So I want to get rid of the pipe rigging and install two hydraulic quick disconnects to the pto valve.
A little about the old homemade splitter. I did not make it. I bought it and I hooked it to my 1951 TEA20 Ferguson tractor. I rigged up the tractor with quick disconnects so I could plug in the splitter. It worked great. Would split mostly anything, but very slow operation back and forth. Used it for a number of years. Pump flow on the old Ferguson is only around 2 to 3 gph when it was new.
Thinking the Case has about the same pressure as the Ferguson but has 8 gph I was curious to see if it would work and be any faster.
Any way. My question is, once I get this hooked up, which way do you move the lever to operate the splitter. Or would it make any difference.
Pictures.
Noel
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 6:14 pm
by Timj
I take it that you have a control valve on your splitter.
The PTO valve should be able to be set in whichever position makes your splitter valve operate correctly. The old Case splitters used the PTO valve as the control for the splitter.
How big is the hydraulic cylinder on your splitter?
On a side note, we should take a closer look at that 3pt. Maybe it would be a good alternative to a sleeve hitch for your 446.
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 6:52 pm
by propane1
Timj wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2023 6:14 pm
I take it that you have a control valve on your splitter.
The PTO valve should be able to be set in whichever position makes your splitter valve operate correctly. The old Case splitters used the PTO valve as the control for the splitter.
How big is the hydraulic cylinder on your splitter?
On a side note, we should take a closer look at that 3pt. Maybe it would be a good alternative to a sleeve hitch for your 446.
That’s a neat side note Tim.
I’ll see if I can find a picture of the old splitter. Have not used it in 5 years. Back then I bought a 5 ton electric splitter to speed up the splitting.
Noel
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 7:59 pm
by Gordy
I agree with what TIm said
One of my 224's came with a homemade splitter. The PO had a steel rod rigged up to the PTO valve for running the splitter, It worked but slowed things down as there is no detent to automatically stop the ram on the return stroke. So I mounted a proper splitter valve on the splitter.
Half throttle on the tractor was plenty fast enough for me, but maybe not for you
Gordy
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 8:50 pm
by Timj
Your on the right track Noel.
get the right fittings and hook it up. I think you should be fine. I know their was some tractors that had smaller hydraulic tanks so oil volume could be an issue on them with a large long stroke cylinder.
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:30 am
by propane1
Well I’ll see what happens. Just one of those things I’d like to to do , just for fun, as my father used to say. Hard to say when I’ll get at it.
Noel
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 6:23 am
by DavidBarkey
Noel
What do you have for a hydraulic tank in the 224 ? Under battery metal /plastic or the tank over the cooler up front ?
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:09 am
by propane1
Metal tank up front by the cooler Dave.
Noel
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 8:29 am
by Gordy
Somewhere on something
I recall seeing the radiator overflow tank idea employed to a hydraulic tank
He drilled a large hole in the cap for the hydraulic tank, soldered/welded a length of 3/4" tube to the cap that was long enough to mount a hose on the top side and extended inside to what was the proper oil level. The hose from the top of the cap went to the bottom of a secondary oil tank. Would need a good seal when the cap is screwed on.
Gordy
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 9:00 am
by DavidBarkey
propane1 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:09 am
Metal tank up front by the cooler Dave.
Noel
That is the largest tank I know of , so that is a good start . What you need to know is the length of stroke , diameter of bore and the diameter of the rod of the cylinder on the splitter . . The length width and height of the tank to figure out volumes. How much that is displaced by the rod is the amount of fluid not returning to the tank . As long as that is less than the volume 80% of the tank volume you are fine .
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 9:44 am
by Eugen
I'd empty the splitter cylinder of all old oil, hook it up to the rear pto and use it a few times keeping an eye on the oil level in the tank. Top up as necessary, as the empty cylinder will draw enough oil to have to add more.
I doubt you need a bigger tank just for adding one cylinder to the circuit.
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 10:38 am
by propane1
DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 9:00 am
propane1 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:09 am
Metal tank up front by the cooler Dave.
Noel
That is the largest tank I know of , so that is a good start . What you need to know is the length of stroke , diameter of bore and the diameter of the rod of the cylinder on the splitter . . The length width and height of the tank to figure out volumes. How much that is displaced by the rod is the amount of fluid not returning to the tank . As long as that is less than the volume 80% of the tank volume you are fine .
Gotta put put this down before I forget.
224 metal oil tank size.
Length 11”, width 6.5”, depth 5.5”.
Hope to measures wood splitter cylinder this afternoon.
Noel
Ok measured the cylinder. It’s 26”. But the ram can only move 23.5”. That’s right to the wedge. So I’m guessing about 22”to 23”. I can’t remember how close it gets to the wedge. Position in the cylinder is 1.5” diameter.
Noel
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 12:06 pm
by thebuildist
Noel,
I'd expect the cylinder to travel much faster than what you were describing with your prior machine. I'd expect it to travel at a normal / expected rate for log splitter.
But you might want to consider doing whatever it takes to remove that half inch cast iron NPT tee from your PTO circuit.
That fitting is only rated for 300 PSI. And at end of cylinder travel you'll be pushing closer to 2000.
I wouldn't want to be around if and when it lets go.
Bob
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 12:19 pm
by propane1
All that piping is going Bob. Only thing that’s going to be there are the two quick disconnects screwed right into the pto valve. That is my goal, thanks.
Noel
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:28 pm
by ssmewing
propane1 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 10:38 am
DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 9:00 am
propane1 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:09 am
Metal tank up front by the cooler Dave.
Noel
That is the largest tank I know of , so that is a good start . What you need to know is the length of stroke , diameter of bore and the diameter of the rod of the cylinder on the splitter . . The length width and height of the tank to figure out volumes. How much that is displaced by the rod is the amount of fluid not returning to the tank . As long as that is less than the volume 80% of the tank volume you are fine .
I am confused. What does the size of the tank matter? I thought the tank was nothing more than an expansion tank. The tank is only supposed to hold enough for expansion and side hill operation.
When you use a 2-way cylinder all you are doing is moving the fluid from one side to the other. It does not drain the tank. The drive system also does not use oil volume. It just borrows what it needs with 100% of it returned to the tank.
Gotta put put this down before I forget.
224 metal oil tank size.
Length 11”, width 6.5”, depth 5.5”.
Hope to measures wood splitter cylinder this afternoon.
Noel
Ok measured the cylinder. It’s 26”. But the ram can only move 23.5”. That’s right to the wedge. So I’m guessing about 22”to 23”. I can’t remember how close it gets to the wedge. Position in the cylinder is 1.5” diameter.
Noel
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:59 pm
by Timj
ssmewing wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:28 pm
propane1 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 10:38 am
DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 9:00 am
That is the largest tank I know of , so that is a good start . What you need to know is the length of stroke , diameter of bore and the diameter of the rod of the cylinder on the splitter . . The length width and height of the tank to figure out volumes. How much that is displaced by the rod is the amount of fluid not returning to the tank . As long as that is less than the volume 80% of the tank volume you are fine .
I am confused. What does the size of the tank matter? I thought the tank was nothing more than an expansion tank. The tank is only supposed to hold enough for expansion and side hill operation.
When you use a 2-way cylinder all you are doing is moving the fluid from one side to the other. It does not drain the tank. The drive system also does not use oil volume. It just borrows what it needs with 100% of it returned to the tank.
Gotta put put this down before I forget.
224 metal oil tank size.
Length 11”, width 6.5”, depth 5.5”.
Hope to measures wood splitter cylinder this afternoon.
Noel
Ok measured the cylinder. It’s 26”. But the ram can only move 23.5”. That’s right to the wedge. So I’m guessing about 22”to 23”. I can’t remember how close it gets to the wedge. Position in the cylinder is 1.5” diameter.
Noel
There has to be enough reserve space in the tank to compensate for the volume difference that the ram itself creates in the cylinder.
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 1:39 pm
by RoamingGnome
Timj wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:59 pm
There has to be enough reserve space in the tank to compensate for the volume difference that the ram itself creates in the cylinder.
What
@Timj said... (only with more rambling...
)
Once you run it and top up the hydraulic tank and the cylinder and hoses are full and have
all the oil they need, there will be a difference in cylinder volume on either side of the piston - the backside of the piston has less oil because the cylinder rod is taking up space as it goes in and out - rod fully extended = more oil inside the cylinder than when it's retracted. Extra capacity in the hydraulic tank needs to be roughly equal to the volume of the rod that goes in and out - the rod is your variable...
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:16 pm
by DavidBarkey
ssmewing wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:28 pm
propane1 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 10:38 am
DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 9:00 am
That is the largest tank I know of , so that is a good start . What you need to know is the length of stroke , diameter of bore and the diameter of the rod of the cylinder on the splitter . . The length width and height of the tank to figure out volumes. How much that is displaced by the rod is the amount of fluid not returning to the tank . As long as that is less than the volume 80% of the tank volume you are fine .
I am confused. What does the size of the tank matter? I thought the tank was nothing more than an expansion tank. The tank is only supposed to hold enough for expansion and side hill operation.
When you use a 2-way cylinder all you are doing is moving the fluid from one side to the other. It does not drain the tank. The drive system also does not use oil volume. It just borrows what it needs with 100% of it returned to the tank.
Steve . The rod side of the cylinder returns less volume that the piston side due to the amount the rod displaces . The differential can be enough to empty a tank if not big enough .
Gotta put put this down before I forget.
224 metal oil tank size.
Length 11”, width 6.5”, depth 5.5”.
Hope to measures wood splitter cylinder this afternoon.
Noel
Ok measured the cylinder. It’s 26”. But the ram can only move 23.5”. That’s right to the wedge. So I’m guessing about 22”to 23”. I can’t remember how close it gets to the wedge. Position in the cylinder is 1.5” diameter.
Noel
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 9:52 pm
by Timj
Here is the serial numbers for the different models of tractors for running the log splitter. There is a gap when the hydraulic tank was smaller and running the splitter was not recommended, but I'm pretty sure there was people that said they had successfully ran the splitter with these models.
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Mon May 01, 2023 12:58 pm
by propane1
My Case 224 serial number is 9707978, so might work. Got a few fittings today. And may fool with fitting the couplers on today. Couplers are off the tea20 Ferguson tractor that ran the splitter before. Raining and cold out. So no Fiona wood cutting today. Im in garage with the wood stove on. May 1/23.
And I expect to be burning wood on and off for the next few weeks, if I can’t cut wood.
Noel
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Mon May 01, 2023 4:22 pm
by propane1
Well there we go. All installed. Let me know if that’s alright and that it might work. Still could be a while before I get to try it.
Noel
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Mon May 01, 2023 6:08 pm
by Timj
looks good Noel.
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Mon May 01, 2023 6:31 pm
by Eugen
I see no reason for that not to work.
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Mon May 01, 2023 8:02 pm
by myerslawnandgarden
Sure would like to see a hose looped between those two quick connectors in case a tree branch knocks the pto lever into engagement.
Bob
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Mon May 01, 2023 8:19 pm
by Spike188
@myerslawnandgarden Bob has a very valid point. Case and Ingersoll usually had a hose coming off of one of the lines that would loop back and plug into the remaining coupling. In your case the spliter would have one male and one female coupler. This makes coupling of hoses and direction of control movement the same every hookup.
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Mon May 01, 2023 8:26 pm
by MattA
Forgive my lack of terminology here... I've got male and female quick connects on my PTO, my hydravac and a spare hose to loop the lines. That allows me to loop the hydravac lines when in storage and add the spare line to loop the PTO ports.
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Mon May 01, 2023 8:54 pm
by Eugen
Can still have the loop with a hose with male quick attach ends. Buy then you use more pairs of quick attach fittings instead of two pairs like the guys say.
Like this you use only two pairs.
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Tue May 02, 2023 6:13 am
by propane1
Well I had a post all wrote out last nite and and forgot to submit it I figure. So it’s gone. Jumpins I do that a lot.
Any way, I don’t plan on having the handle installed unless I’m using the splitter. I had the handle catch some thing last year while cutting grass. But there was a route in the old hook up for it to flow. But small hose. So I took the handle out. I would say that is how to previous owner ruined the pump in the tractor to begin with.
Any way. I’ll look at that, but for now the handle will be left out.
Could I get a hose made and just loop those two quick disconnects together. ?
I can see, but a way of in the distance, a hydraulic dump trailer.
I have a brand new still in box 10 cubic foot agri fab trailers. Not much of a trailer, but it’s a trailer.
Noel
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Tue May 02, 2023 8:38 am
by RoamingGnome
When I went the Quick Connect route I made up a 3rd hose to loop the couplers behind the seat, I tried using a bunch of 90° elbows to see if I could make a solid connection without needing a hose but it got too fiddly -
the hose works, it's just kinda clunky having that big loop behind the seat.
Re: Hydraulic pto question.
Posted: Tue May 02, 2023 11:03 am
by propane1
RoamingGnome wrote: ↑Tue May 02, 2023 8:38 am
When I went the Quick Connect route I made up a 3rd hose to loop the couplers behind the seat, I tried using a bunch of 90° elbows to see if I could make a solid connection without needing a hose but it got too fiddly -
PXL_20220801_185118051.jpg
the hose works, it's just kinda clunky having that big loop behind the seat.
Thanks, I’ll look into that. The way I have my quick disconnects, I could use 90 degree elbows and hang my loop down. And that would maybe keep it from getting fetched up in any thing.
Noel