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Hydrogen hybrid conversion

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:32 am
by Eugen
Saw this ad on the local market place, it says:

Ad Title: We will convert your car, or truck to hydrogen hybrid. Gas guzzlers welcome!

Ad Text:"Go green! Price shown is fully installed and varies according engine size. Get improved mileage, more HORSE power, reduced emissions and longer engine life. Engine runs quieter. Diesel or gas. Includes the chip to adjust timing etc. Chip is specifically programmed for your make+model. Not all cars have room under the hood for our gear. Engines over 3.2L IE: ALL TRUCKS, cost more to convert...small engines under 2L cost less."

I wonder, is this a scam of some sort? Does anyone know if the technology actually exists and it works?

Screen Shot 2022-09-02 at 10.29.08.png

Re: Hydrogen hybrid conversion

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:42 pm
by Gordy
There were a bunch of those HHO (hydrogen & oxygen) generators for sale. Most failed due to not having an addon computer chip to rewrite the OEM computer. Without the new chip/ controller, the OEM computer would not adjust the timing for the faster burn rate of the H & H20, it would also read the exhaust as being lean and add more fuel to compensate.

Much more info can be found here www.hydrogengarage.com They seemed to be one of the best when I was checking this out years ago, $$$$ always got in the way of me trying it.

:cheers:
Gordy

Re: Hydrogen hybrid conversion

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2022 6:15 pm
by myerslawnandgarden
I have a customer in Louisiana who has a 224 running on hydrogen. He is very knowledgeable about it and is also big into gasoline vapor technology. Powers his business with a 4.3 GM V6 which runs 24/7 on about 2 gallons a week. Plus sells the excess kw back to the power company. I've been convinced for some time that hydrogen powered vehicles make the most sense but government and big oil will likely not let it happen.

Bob

Re: Hydrogen hybrid conversion

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2022 8:11 pm
by DavidBarkey
The biggest draw back I see is the amount of power it takes to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen and then safely storing them both untill needed . Not something for most amateurs to play with .

Re: Hydrogen hybrid conversion

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2022 8:47 pm
by JSinMO
At first blush the ad seems like a scam. They claim it pretty much does everything except walk you dog for you like countless other devices claimed to do over the years. Including one my great uncle tried to market in the 1950s. His idea was a canister that replaced your oil filter. What went in the canister? A roll of toilet paper! It didn’t work.

But, after reading what you guys posted maybe this one isn’t so crazy. If a guy can run an engine all week on two gallons of vaporized fuel that’s amazing technology. I don’t know enough about these technologies to speak intelligently about them, but if hydrogen is a plausible fuel source these are the thing that should be in development.

Re: Hydrogen hybrid conversion

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2022 9:27 pm
by myerslawnandgarden
DavidBarkey wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 8:11 pm The biggest draw back I see is the amount of power it takes to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen and then safely storing them both untill needed . Not something for most amateurs to play with .
Dave,

I agree 100%. Hydrogen conversions are something that one needs to research and understand fully to avoid disaster. There is a wealth of information online regarding this subject, with retirement around the corner I hope to soon have time to learn more.

Bob

Re: Hydrogen hybrid conversion

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:21 pm
by Eugen
So I asked the guy what kind of device he's using and he sent me a picture, after which I found it on Amazon. LOL

Screen Shot 2022-09-02 at 22.05.01.png

In a nutshell, they don't store the hydrogen. The heart of the matter is the dry cell hydrogen generated. It's a sandwich of stainless steel plates insulated from each other and in a plexiglass enclosure. Some plates are connected to positive, some to negative source of voltage (battery, alternator). Part of the plates are immersed in distilled water mixed with a little catalyst (powder) to make it a little conductive. When there is voltage across the plates, there is electrolysis and both water and hydrogen are released inside the enclosure. A hose from the enclosure is connected to the air intake of the car, so while the car is running, the electricity from the alternator generates hydrogen which gets sucked into the engine with air and gasoline. Here's where it gets tricky. Apparently the hydrogen ignites faster than the air/gasoline mixture, so the engine timing should be changed. The guy with that ad said he also has the chip or whatever to change your car timing. Also, they usually have a check valve and a spark arrestor between the hydrogen generator cell and the air intake. Therefore, no significant amount of hydrogen is really stored.

One thing I've asked myself is, does this fuel cell produce enough hydrogen? They throw some numbers around, like 45 litres per minute, or 90 litres per minute. So the kit you install depends on the engine displacement as well.

Here's the little fly in the soup. Apparently to generate this much hydrogen you need quite some current, and some talk about 20 amperes. Your car's alternator must be able to supply that current. But, when a higher current draw is needed, the energizer field inside the alternator is increased, and the alternator is harder to be turned by the engine, therefore the load on the engine increases. Basically, physics says you cannot put an amount of energy into a system, and generate more energy. :D So the world seems to be divided in two camps. The people that say this is really a hoax, because the rules of physics are immutable. The other side says "you can't argue with results" and you will find anecdotal evidence that people got anywhere from 5% to 25% more mileage with a system like this. They say that the efficiency of the engine increases when hydrogen and oxygen (they call the generated gas "brown gas") get burned together with gasoline.

I'm not about to fork $1400 on that. If I had stainless steel plate and time I would not mind playing with this.

Re: Hydrogen hybrid conversion

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:35 pm
by FUTZ
My neighbour was crazy about these some years ago. He said that he got the promised 25% decrease in fuel consumption (and emissions), but then changed cars and did want to screw with his new car. Recently he retired and bought a older Ford Ranger, and he wants to set it up again; however he needs to buy a new controller for the different engine. My guess is you have to be someone who doesn't mind to tinker. 25% seems to be the best you can do with converted gas engines. He's got me interested.
This process doesn't have anything to do with laws of conservation. It's hard to consider water as a source of fuel, but I remember splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen in high school. A local warehouse uses forklifts power by hydrogen that they make onsite.

Re: Hydrogen hybrid conversion

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2022 5:07 am
by thebuildist
Eugen wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:21 pm So I asked the guy what kind of device he's using and he sent me a picture, after which I found it on Amazon. LOL


Screen Shot 2022-09-02 at 22.05.01.png


In a nutshell, they don't store the hydrogen. The heart of the matter is the dry cell hydrogen generated. It's a sandwich of stainless steel plates insulated from each other and in a plexiglass enclosure. Some plates are connected to positive, some to negative source of voltage (battery, alternator). Part of the plates are immersed in distilled water mixed with a little catalyst (powder) to make it a little conductive. When there is voltage across the plates, there is electrolysis and both water and hydrogen are released inside the enclosure. A hose from the enclosure is connected to the air intake of the car, so while the car is running, the electricity from the alternator generates hydrogen which gets sucked into the engine with air and gasoline. Here's where it gets tricky. Apparently the hydrogen ignites faster than the air/gasoline mixture, so the engine timing should be changed. The guy with that ad said he also has the chip or whatever to change your car timing. Also, they usually have a check valve and a spark arrestor between the hydrogen generator cell and the air intake. Therefore, no significant amount of hydrogen is really stored.

One thing I've asked myself is, does this fuel cell produce enough hydrogen? They throw some numbers around, like 45 litres per minute, or 90 litres per minute. So the kit you install depends on the engine displacement as well.

Here's the little fly in the soup. Apparently to generate this much hydrogen you need quite some current, and some talk about 20 amperes. Your car's alternator must be able to supply that current. But, when a higher current draw is needed, the energizer field inside the alternator is increased, and the alternator is harder to be turned by the engine, therefore the load on the engine increases. Basically, physics says you cannot put an amount of energy into a system, and generate more energy. :D So the world seems to be divided in two camps. The people that say this is really a hoax, because the rules of physics are immutable. The other side says "you can't argue with results" and you will find anecdotal evidence that people got anywhere from 5% to 25% more mileage with a system like this. They say that the efficiency of the engine increases when hydrogen and oxygen (they call the generated gas "brown gas") get burned together with gasoline.

I'm not about to fork $1400 on that. If I had stainless steel plate and time I would not mind playing with this.
Count me in with Eugen in the "skeptical" camp. It sure sounds like "something for nothing" to me, and physics can be real stubborn about that. And since the system requires so many "special" pieces all working in "tuned" harmony, complete with various electronics, when you spend the money but it doesn't work, there's no shortage of items in a wild goose chase to track down why it isn't working. And by the time you've spent the time and money to chase that goose for a good while, you're just too exhausted and embarrased to try to prove that you were swindled.

I can't definitively call it a scam. But it definitely looks like a scam and walks like a scam and ....

Bob

Re: Hydrogen hybrid conversion

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:49 am
by DavidBarkey
Currant problem with internally combusted engines is still Volumetric efficiency. Turbo chargers help this , but there is still alot of energy waist in the form of heat and friction . Every engine has it's sweet spot where it make the most for the least . This is where the idea of hybreads will work better . A small engine turning at a constant speed running a generator to charge a battery . Then all propulsion is done by electric wheel motors only reducing most of the points of drive train friction and energy loss . But this is still in it infancy.