Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

Hi all,
Trying to tap here the collective wisdom. There is this kind of wrench I will need to use to open up a large hydraulic cylinder and it takes a 3/4 in drive breaker bar, which I don't have. Looked around and they're not cheap; now I don't mind forking out for a good tool that will be useful in the long run, but I'm afraid this will be a one time use most likely.

Question: have any of you tried to make a square 3/4 in drive out of 3/4" or 1" round bar? I guess it won't be as tough as a proper Chrome Vanadium bar, any other issues you see with going this route?

I've never made one, but I do have a 1/2 x 3/4 adapter so I can use a 1/2" drive breaker bar. You might consider that.

Bob

I also modified my biggest adjustable wrench to give it a pin wrench capability. It's an 18" x 2.5" adjustable wrench and it can remove the glands on any cylinders up to around 4.5" OD.

Like this:

https://www.homemadetools.net/homemade- ... pin-wrench

Bob

My understanding is that on old large cylinders (like 4" diameter) some excessive forces might be needed to open them up. Just because the pins coulde span the 4" it does not always mean you can actually open up a large cylinder. Also, the pins must have a good firm grip on the holes, otherwise you'll deal with something a lot worse if the pin holes in the cylinder cap get damaged.

In any case, I wasn't going to risk that, and ordered the wrench in the picture above, but it needs the 3/4 in drive.

Bob, I considered an adapter, but I'm not sure it would be strong enough to take some big forces (i.e. long extended pipe on breaker bar).

I have a long 3/4" breaker bar and even with the big equipment it doesn't get used much, so I get what you are saying. I think you can make something. A handle from something that doesn't bend, maybe some square tube. The right square stock to go into socket, hard enough it doesn't twist under load, but not so hard it would shatter.

Timj wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:44 pm I have a long 3/4" breaker bar and even with the big equipment it doesn't get used much, so I get what you are saying. I think you can make something. A handle from something that doesn't bend, maybe some square tube. The right square stock to go into socket, hard enough it doesn't twist under load, but not so hard it would shatter.

Yeah, that's the idea Tim. As for the right stock, that is the bigger question for me now, what to use. I have a long 1.5" pipe that could be the handle. Thinking of welding a square stock onto it for the drive, but not sure even if my welding would hold. I'd have to be really careful, as sketchy home made tools like this are one way of getting hurt. but then again, I wanted to be more of a red neck and shed my city slicker skin so how better to do it than this?

Getr done! make sure weld is good and when you start pulling, ease into and pull like you know it's going to break.

If the pipe is galvanized, then you'll want to grind the zinc coating off before you try to weld to it. You can weld through the zinc coating but it gives off noxious fumes and will make the weld very porous and weak.

Meanwhile if it's regular black pipe then it probably has a pretty thick coating of varnish and/or mill scale on it. And you'll want to sand/grind that coating off before you weld it.

Either way if you get it down to clean shiny metal then a weld should hold without much trouble.

Bob

Hehe. Here is my un professional ramble. I would take an old socket of big enough size that you could grind down to the 3/4 opening. This would be done on the 1/2” drive end of the socket. I would then set a hard bolt in the 1/2” drive opening. Weld it in good. Then cut off the opening that goes on to the bolt or nut. Then weld that end on to a piece of heavy flat bar. Then slide a pipe over that and away you go. Or cut the socket off to fit the pipe and weld it on there. And away you go.

Update in ramble ! I would maybe put the bolt in 1/2 hole first and weld it in. Then shape to the 3/4 opening you need.

Another update in ramble. Maybe better to use an impact socket.

Another ramble update: Maybe use a 3/8” drive socket. A little more meat there to work with after welding 3/8 drive in.


Noel

Bob, meet the pipe which has been found somewhere forgotten and will be the tool. Broomstick next to it for size reference.
Your point is noted though, clean it up! - wich shall be done before welding.

Eugen wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:58 pm My understanding is that on old large cylinders (like 4" diameter) some excessive forces might be needed to open them up. Just because the pins coulde span the 4" it does not always mean you can actually open up a large cylinder. Also, the pins must have a good firm grip on the holes, otherwise you'll deal with something a lot worse if the pin holes in the cylinder cap get damaged.

In any case, I wasn't going to risk that, and ordered the wrench in the picture above, but it needs the 3/4 in drive.

Bob, I considered an adapter, but I'm not sure it would be strong enough to take some big forces (i.e. long extended pipe on breaker bar).

<img src="https://www.princessauto.com/ccstore/v1 ... ;width=300" alt="1/2 in. dr to 3/4 in. dr Impact Socket Drive Adapter"/> @Eugen Put this on a torque wrench set on near max . You will have better control of the pin spanner . If you need more than a 200lbs force you will tear the pin holes up . you may need the assist of a blue flame spanner wrench to help your pin spanner wench .
If possible best crack loose on machine before removeal . If you need help with the blue flame spanner , just call you have my number . Most time it takes 2 guys to get them to budge . One on the torch and one on the wrench .

Good idea to do on machine while solid. Now because I’ve never seen one of these cylinders before. Can you take two hammers, one bigger that the other, and hold with the bigger one and tap with the small one and go around it to help loosen them up ?

More ramblin.


Noel

I'm fortunate to have a mad tractor builder I can call on for a hand, thank you Dave!

Noel, not sure how you mean to do it with hammers. Also that type of wrench I have a feeling it doesn't lend well to impact. Similar to applying impact to a crow foot wrench I think.

Here's the cylinder with the one gallon paint can on it. Looks like someone's had a go at it.

@Eugen What he is talking about is shocking the rust by small deliberate impacts around the out side of the threaded section .Using 2 hammers keep the bottom from making dents in the tube . In a case like your BH . a combination of pressure from the wrench , heat, and shock may be required to get loose . Once loose, lube and work back and forth until all freed up.
"Noel, not sure how you mean to do it with hammers. Also that type of wrench I have a feeling it doesn't lend well to impact. Similar to applying impact to a crow foot wrench I think."

Well like you say Dave, shocking the treads. I meant holding the bigger hammer on the bottom tightly then taping with the lighter one all the way around on the treaded part of the cylinder, before putting Eugens tool on it. Helps to break them apart. Just like giving it a shock like an impact or air gun. But now that I see what Eugen is at. Ya can’t get around to far. I guess I’m rambling again, but when I was taking a 1 1/2” or 2” black iron union apart, on a propane line, I would always go around with the two hammers to help break it loose.



Noel

@Eugen The guys have given you good ways to make the tool you need. Not much I can add to there comments and ideas
Id like to throw out a safety tip or two. As you know the heavier the machine and tools get the higher the stakes can be. Gloves, safety glasses, be mindful of if the tool slips which way are you going to fall and what are you going to fall on.

It’s not that I’m the safety monitor or something, its just that I would hate for a guy to get hurt when I could mention something that could have prevented it. I’m sure most of the guys here could tell you a story of things going bad and show the scar to go with it. I know I can! I have found a quick reminder on safety once in awhile has made me think and keep me from getting hurt.

That concludes todays safety ramble, now go make the tool and get that dang thing apart!

Great advice y'all, much appreciated. And yes Jeff, it never hurts to remind one about safety.

Waiting now for that tool from the wretched Amazon. They said I get it on the 18th, and now it's delayed and no tracking whatsoever.

JSinMO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:12 pm @Eugen The guys have given you good ways to make the tool you need. Not much I can add to there comments and ideas
Id like to throw out a safety tip or two. As you know the heavier the machine and tools get the higher the stakes can be. Gloves, safety glasses, be mindful of if the tool slips which way are you going to fall and what are you going to fall on.

It’s not that I’m the safety monitor or something, its just that I would hate for a guy to get hurt when I could mention something that could have prevented it. I’m sure most of the guys here could tell you a story of things going bad and show the scar to go with it. I know I can! I have found a quick reminder on safety once in awhile has made me think and keep me from getting hurt.

That concludes todays safety ramble, now go make the tool and get that dang thing apart!

Great safety ramble JSinMO. Same as when you cut a tree down. Figure out your path to safety. And clear all obstacles out of the path.

Noel

Well, I'm late to this party...

I hate one time use tools. We've all got them, and they're always a pain. I have a dozen custom made spanners for similar fittings hanging out on a shelf in the barn. Some are labeled, most are not. All made out of a thought that we needed the tool NOW. In reality, every one of those projects could have waited, but frustration can easily get the best of us...

I think you were on the right path buying the adjustable pin spanner. That's good for a whole bunch of sizes. I think you kinda went off the tracks when you decided to make a 3/4" breaker bar...
Don't get me wrong, I don't need 3/4" sockets or drive equipment often. Once a year possibly, but more like every 5 years if I'm being honest... That said, we've got some cheapo China 3/4" drive set. I sure wouldn't trust the ratchet for much, but the breaker bar is plenty stout... A quick look on Amazon yields a couple options for breaker bars under $50. There's even a Gearwrench right at $36... Throw a pipe on there, and have at it. The pins on the spanner are going to yield long before the cheapo breaker bar. You are far more likely to have use of a breaker bar in the future than the more specialized pin spanner.

My uncle gave me this little advise a couple years ago... For all the tools we have, and between him, and the collection of my father, and I, there are a LOT of tools, we often forget that the wallet can be an awfully powerful tool as well.

https://buffalo.craigslist.org/atq/d/bu ... 52205.html
Eugen i posted a link to a C/L ad. This is where I go to find a tool that I don't want to fork out the big bucks for. $40 for a 3/4" breaker bar doesn't seem to bad to me. I've picked up a few tools that way.
https://www.harborfreight.com/3-4-quart ... 98270.html
Harbor Freight has one for $21 but I would sooner go with one that is not questonable.

Keep the Peace
Harry

Can't go wrong with that Armstrong for $40...

I forgot to mention this place too...
https://www.harryepstein.com/
I've bought a bunch of gear from their Closeout section. Mostly Bonney sockets, and drives.
A quick look turned up at least 1 offering for a sliding head 3/4" Duro Chrome NOS unit of WWII vintage...

Another option I've seen done is welding a 3/4" square head bolt into a 1/2" drive socket. If it were me, I'd go with one of the off the shelf options already posted

Looking at the picture of the backhoe, if it were me, I would make a wrench / cheater combination long enough to touch the ground. Then power up the machine and move the boom down and to the right. And let the power of the machine turn that gland for me.

For what it's worth.

Guys, me thinks the real trick is not so much the force applied at the end of the stick, rather how to reliably transfer that force as torque to the gland. I been thinking about this and I have a plan which I will unveil once all the tools are ready. In the meantime stock on pop corn!

Unfortunately tools available in the US on the second hand market are not accessible to me, and ebay shipping costs are crazy. As I said, I got a plan.

Can’t wait to see it. I still have to do the power steering cylinder on mine. Maybe your idea will apply to my job too!

There's this replacement head for a 3/4" drive breaker bar I can get for $15. It's chrome molybdenum and will be stronger than what I could build myself as the driving bit.

I already got a 30 inch wrecking bar that would fit right in the slot of this replacement head. If that bends, which I don't think it will, there's the Craftsman 42" heat treated spring steel wrecking bar for about $50 at the local store.

As Dave pointed out above, the pins might sheer before the breaker bar bends or the head breaks. I'm not sure I feel comfortable doing it with the torque wrench, I'm afraid it gets damaged. My plan is to heat it up with the torch and bang it all around with the hammer, and only then try to undo the gland.

Bob, while it's true that moving the boom of the backhoe would give me the biggest force, it won't help if it breaks the pin, head, or handle of the bar. I'm more comfortable with a more controlled force. If I wanted some more force than manual, I can always do it with the 644 bucket, for instance. Or put a strap on the handle of the breaker bar and pull it with the truck. Tempting as this may be, to enter the hall of fail fame of Youtube, I'll first try it with my own force and use the leverage a long handle gives. If I'm able to generate 100 pounds force myself, a three foot handle will make it 300 foot-pound torque.

The last bit that needs to be resolved is how to keep the ping wrench flat on the gland while applying force to the breaker bar handle. I'm thinking maybe a couple of ratchet straps to tension the tool on the gland.

You could tack weld it in place. Then grind the weld off after disassembly is complete.

I'd try it freehand first, but tack weld is what I'd reach for next. But be sure to cover/protect the chromed ram/rod.

Bob

thebuildist wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:30 pm You could tack weld it in place. Then grind the weld off after disassembly is complete.

I'd try it freehand first, but tack weld is what I'd reach for next. But be sure to cover/protect the chromed ram/rod.

Bob

It's a good idea and I thought about it but I'm worried I'll destroy the tool

@Eugen that’s sounds like a good plan. Couple of things came to mind. Maybe start soaking the gland threads in penetrating oil or ATF now would help it break loose when your ready to try it. Also I was thinking maybe having the wrench on the glad with a light strain on it while your heating and tapping may help it break loose.

Ok. More rambling. Don’t forget Eugen that you need two hammers. Gives a better shock.

And what about an air chisel with a blunt end. And lightly rattle the end with the two pin holes. Just a bit before trying to loosen, and maybe a bit while loosening.
Need two people to do that thou.

Just more rambling. See how it goes.


Noel

Propane57 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:15 pm Ok. More rambling. Don’t forget Eugen that you need two hammers. Gives a better shock.

And what about an air chisel with a blunt end. And lightly rattle the end with the two pin holes. Just a bit before trying to loosen, and maybe a bit while loosening.
Need two people to do that thou.

Just more rambling. See how it goes.


Noel

@Eugen
I have a long barrel air hammer chisel with a hammer bit if need to shock the end cap.

JSinMO wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:23 pm @Eugen that’s sounds like a good plan. Couple of things came to mind. Maybe start soaking the gland threads in penetrating oil or ATF now would help it break loose when your ready to try it. Also I was thinking maybe having the wrench on the glad with a light strain on it while your heating and tapping may help it break loose.

You got it.
That is exactly why it is best to have 2 guys . For a job like this . Unless of course you a octopus.

JSinMO wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:23 pm @Eugen that’s sounds like a good plan. Couple of things came to mind. Maybe start soaking the gland threads in penetrating oil or ATF now would help it break loose when your ready to try it. Also I was thinking maybe having the wrench on the glad with a light strain on it while your heating and tapping may help it break loose.

Jeff, I was talking to Dave yesterday and we were thinking this is a good idea to do, indeed!

@Propane57 I have a pneumatic chisel but it's very small. Dave suggested I tap/hit the gland from the top with a brass something so it doesn't cause dents. I got a one pound copper hammer that can be used for this. Just in case other people have to deal with such things and get to read this long thread, Dave had a really good point about covering the chrome part of the rod with a plastic pipe section so as to not hit it by mistake and damage it.

I received the replacement head of the 3/4 drive breaker bar. Seems solid enough in size, we'll see how it holds to some abuse.

Oh, here's a bit of a ramble somewhat related. The store that had this replacement head for $14 on clearance (from $36) is an hour away and had this item only available to order on line. I figured since I pay shipping for this, why not look to add some more items to the order, and was browsing the clearance items. They had a whole bunch of 3/4 drive large sockets (dewalt) on prices between $1.50 and $4.00. I mean, a 2" socket for $4.00 !!! But many of them sizes I wouldn't need exactly now, still why not get them for such a low price, as you never know what the future holds and tools are good to have. However, all the large cylinders of this backhoe have a 1-1/4 -12 hexagonal cap screw on the rod end. After some searches it turns out that you need the 1-7/8 socket to undo it. There are stories over on heavyequipmentforums about this particular bolt being tough to undo with unless you have a 1" drive impact gun. Anyway, I added two 1-7/8 sockets to the order at $2 each, figuring I might damage one when trying to undo the big bolts, and at this price, why not get two. A long story for a very short punch line. All the other sockets and the replacement head came; the 1-7/8 sockets were taken out of the order because by the time the order went through inventory was zero. How is that for funny, exactly the item you really want is taken out of the order and the stuff that you added as more optional all make it. oh well, not a tragedy. They also had the 1-7/8 socket in 1" drive at $2 so I'm thinking of getting that. For comparison, the cheapest such socket I could find anywhere is $19.

I am now set for working on some really really big bolts.

Wouldn't you know, they're out of the 1" drive 1-7/8 sockets too

OK, FINE, I will buy the $19 socket and feel like a billionaire for a second, and not the cheapskate I am.

The right tool finally arrived. A step closer to using the 3/4 bar.