Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

Anybody had any luck with using Battery Desulfators to remove the sulfate from lead acid battery plates?

MattA wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:27 pm Anybody had any luck with using Battery Desulfators to remove the sulfate from lead acid battery plates?

I have not tried one yet but seen a lot of nonpartisan support from many fields especially in deep cycle batteries ie. solar battery banks .

Dave

Never knew there was such a thing. Interesting.


Noel

Propane57 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:51 pm Never knew there was such a thing. Interesting.


Noel

The basic princible is it pulses the charge in stead of being slow and steady . Theory is that this dislodges the sulphate crystals build up on the plates and allows it to be reabsorbed into the acid again .

Dave

The battery maintainer that I have is supposed to pulse according to the directions, but have no idea when it pulses. https://www.amazon.com/Clore-Automotive ... 91&sr=8-31

Keep the Peace
Harry

Oh. I have a little Canadian Tire battery charger that does that, maybe. It’s a 2 or 12 amp charger. I guess it’s the same thing. It comes on and charges to a certain voltage, then shuts down, once the voltage drops a bit, it comes back on. Saved a lot of batteries with it. Thanks Dave.


Noel

Harry wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 6:10 pm The battery maintainer that I have is supposed to pulse according to the directions, but have no idea when it pulses. https://www.amazon.com/Clore-Automotive ... 91&sr=8-31

Keep the Peace
Harry

image.png

During the charging process Harry .

Dave

I once built the widow maker version just for the fun of doing it. Line voltage, big capacitor, power resistor, large spikes of voltage smashing the sulfation, they say. Never seemed to do a thing. Then I asked myself, do I really know the battery needs desulfation? Maybe it has a different problem. It's still in a box somewhere.

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:10 pm

Harry wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 6:10 pm The battery maintainer that I have is supposed to pulse according to the directions, but have no idea when it pulses. https://www.amazon.com/Clore-Automotive ... 91&sr=8-31

Keep the Peace
Harry

image.png

During the charging process Harry .

Dave

I suspect it has a pulsing mode separate from just charging?

I check it daily just to make sure it's still operating. I have it hooked up to four batteries in four tractors. I can see by looking at the face of the charger that a green light goes on then off for the four different indicators on the charger. If that means it's charging or pulsing I'm not sure. I've checked the batteries in the tractors by removing the alligator clips and testing with my multi meter. They all have been holding at 13 volts. When I moved my 644 lbh into the shop it started right up after setting since Christmas. I put my 446 snow caster tractor into the lean-to and hooked that battery up to the battery maintainer.

Keep the Peace
Harry

Eugen wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:18 pm I once built the widow maker version just for the fun of doing it. Line voltage, big capacitor, power resistor, large spikes of voltage smashing the sulphation, they say. Never seemed to do a thing. Then I asked myself, do I really know the battery needs desulphation? Maybe it has a different problem. It's still in a box somewhere.

Any Battery less than 5 years old and and maintaining proper reserves won't need it . Sulphation builds over time and is accelerated by repeated deep discharging .. Well at least that what I was taught in a course by a battery manufacture .

Dave

Pulled this off a battery manufacturing site .



An automotive battery, if left unused over time, starts losing its charge. This happens as the electrolyte in the battery, which is sulfuric acid, keeps reacting with the plates inside the battery acting as cathode and anode. This leads to formation of lead sulfate. Since the battery is not being used, it is not being recharged either. This leads to these sulfate molecules to form crystals on battery terminals. This phenomenon is called Sulfation. This prevents the battery from being fully charged and therefore deliver less power than its capacity. A pulse charger is brought into picture at this point to ensure sulfate crystals can be removed from the battery terminals, making battery revival possible.

Pulse Charger for batteries
Q.How does a pulse charger work?

A pulse charger feeds a series of voltage or current pulses into a decaying battery. These pulses carry DC current and have a strictly-controlled rise time (time taken by a signal to change from specified low value to specified high value), pulse width, frequency and amplitude. A pulse charger is said to work with both regular and valve-regulated batteries.

Q.How does a pulse charger reduce sulfation?

By sending current in pulses, a pulse charger can charge a battery by applying high, instantaneous voltages without overheating the battery. This leads to breaking down of sulfate crystals, thereby increasing a battery's service life.

Q.Are there different types of pulse chargers?

Yes, there are two major types of pulse chargers. The first type is the regular type where upon connecting with the battery, the charger uses pulses to check the state the battery is in, then uses constant current charging for the initial phase and switches to pulse charging later to maintain the charge. The other type consists of chargers using negative pulse charging (also called reflex or burp charging). These chargers use positive pulses with brief negative pulses between positive ones to charge the battery. However, neither charging method is better than the other.

Q.How can I prevent battery sulfation?

The only way of preventing sulfation is to let your car's battery charge fully. If the battery is not fully charged, the lead sulfate inside it will start taking crystalline shape at the battery terminals, leading to sulfation. The worst part about sulfation is even though you can get rid of sulfation, the process itself cannot be reversed. This means reduced electrical capacity of the battery.





Dave

Eugen wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:18 pm I once built the widow maker version just for the fun of doing it. Line voltage, big capacitor, power resistor, large spikes of voltage smashing the sulfation, they say. Never seemed to do a thing. Then I asked myself, do I really know the battery needs desulfation? Maybe it has a different problem. It's still in a box somewhere.

That is a fancy one Years ago when the pulsers first came out, I think it was Keylee.net had free plans for one. It used a 15 or 20 watt light bulb as a resistor in the main line then a bridge rectifier. Never had enough to try it


Gordy

Here's an interesting thread with personal experiences

https://www.diyaudio.com/community/thre ... er.143301/

I do not recommend anyone doing that, lethal voltages are involved. I have extensive experience with electrical work involving lethal voltage and only that's why I tried it. As a side note, I was a moderator for many years on that forum.

yep, you sure don't need to get lit-up trying to save an old battery.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to try one of those $20 dedicated desulfators. I've got a few 17-20AH batteries that I'd like to try it on. I'll report back on any measured capacity increases/decreases.

Eugen wrote: ↑Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:27 am Here's an interesting thread with personal experiences

https://www.diyaudio.com/community/thre ... er.143301/

I do not recommend anyone doing that, lethal voltages are involved. I have extensive experience with electrical work involving lethal voltage and only that's why I tried it. As a side note, I was a moderator for many years on that forum.

Different site, but that is the circuit I saw. They explain it better than the site I saw, and make it much less scary


Gordy

So far my desulfator experiment hasn't gone great. I'm desulfating one 18AH 12V battery from an old jump pack. It's gotta be close to 15 years old. I'm also desulfating 3x 20AH 12V batteries from an old Xantrex Xpower inverter setup. These are about 10 years old. I'm charging all the batteries in parallel using the Xantrex charger that came with the inverter setup. The negative connection is on one end of the battery string and the positive is on the other. To check the capacity, I've using an electronic load I borrowed from work with a battery test function. I've set the cutoff voltage to 11V and due to the jumper wires that I'm using and the very poor condition of some of the batteries, I've had to set the test current to 1Amp.

Battery #1 (jump pack battery) test results:
Test #1 3.07AH
Test #2 2.95AH
Test #3 2.85AH

Battery #2 Inverter battery #1:
Test #1 0AH, ran about 10 seconds under 1A test load.
Test #2 0.18AH
Test #3 0.14AH

Battery #3 Inverter battery #2:
Test #1 0AH. Cannot support the 1A test load. Battery voltage drops to ~9.5V when the test load is applied.
Test #2 0AH, ran about 5 seconds under 1A test load.
Test #3 0AH, ran about 10 seconds under 1A test load.

Battery #4 Inverter battery #3:
Test #1 3.41AH
Test #2 3.9AH
Test #3 3.73AH

Mixed results so far. I've been desulfating the batteries for 8-12 hours at a time, recharging and checking the capacity. To speed things up, I've been desulfating battery 1 & 4 or battery 2 & 3 connected in series to save time. The desulfator I bought does 12V/24V/36V/48V and autodetects the battery voltage. Since the desulfator is self powered, it will only run for a few hours on battery 2 & 3 (low capacity). To save my time testing, this weekend I connected all four batteries in parallel and hooked up the desulfator the same way I hook up the charger. I'll check it in a few days.

This is the desulfator I've got:
https://www.amazon.com/cleanpower-Batte ... 134&sr=8-4

The only downside to this model so far is it discharges the batteries and will hit its low voltage cutoff on low capacity batteries.

Very interesting @MattA but maybe it needs more time. Some people mentioned even a week for a battery to get better. Also, perhaps so many batteries in parallel are too much for the device. I found the equivalent device on the Canadian amazon and am probably going to get it, as I have at least two batteries that don't charge up to what I think they should. Thanks for reporting your experience!

I desulfated the batteries by themselves at first and then to speed things up I desulfated the two 0AH and the two 3AH batteries in series (0AH and 3AH were desulfated at different times). All four batteries have been connected in parallel and desulfating since Saturday morning. I don't think this is the correct way to do this and will recharge the batteries and switch back to one battery at a time.

MattA wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:25 am I desulfated the batteries by themselves at first and then to speed things up I desulfated the two 0AH and the two 3AH batteries in series (0AH and 3AH were desulfated at different times). All four batteries have been connected in parallel and desulfating since Saturday morning. I don't think this is the correct way to do this and will recharge the batteries and switch back to one battery at a time.

So I went and read a lot more reviews for your device. Many of the people that claimed success described very long times, even a month, and going in cycles of separately desulfating and charging, as the desulfator discharges the battery. Some also say that the battery has to be charged to about 11V or so, for the desulfator to work. I wonder if we could put the charger and desulfator on the battery at the same time, with diodes in series with the positive lead for each desulfator and charger.

What you did with the batteries in parallel isn't necessarily wrong, but if it doesn't work you have one extra thing to doubt. Anyway, you got me excited about this little desulfator

The desulfator has a low voltage cutoff around 11.5V. AFAIK there are battery chargers with built in desulfator. I think these start in the $50-100 range.

I think you could hook the desulfator up to the battery directly and put a diode in series with your battery charger. Make sure the battery is already charged to limit the power dissipation on the diode. Also make sure the diode has sufficient voltage rating. I recall reading these desulfators can generate spikes of at least 100V. If your buying a diode, get a diode with a fast reverse recovery time. Feel free to ask for help

MattA wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:14 pm The desulfator has a low voltage cutoff around 11.5V. AFAIK there are battery chargers with built in desulfator. I think these start in the $50-100 range.

I think you could hook the desulfator up to the battery directly and put a diode in series with your battery charger. Make sure the battery is already charged to limit the power dissipation on the diode. Also make sure the diode has sufficient voltage rating. I recall reading these desulfators can generate spikes of at least 100V. If your buying a diode, get a diode with a fast reverse recovery time. Feel free to ask for help

Matt, did you hook it up to an oscilloscope? I'd be surprised that the switching/pulse frequency is that high to need a fast recovery diode. I have lots of diodes, I'll find something that should be good enough like 3x the max amperage or so, and maybe double the max voltage. I ordered the same unit you have from amazon.ca and will hook it up to an oscilloscope when I get a chance. I'll reach out if I don't understand something, it'll be interesting.

If the desulfator has a low voltage cutoff I'm thinking we can trick it into spiking a low voltage battery by putting a good battery in parallel with the low voltage one that would have a couple or more diodes in series with it. Then the desulfator sees a higher voltage and spikes both the good and the lower voltage battery.

Now I'm wondering if the desulfator has a high voltage cutoff too, because if I put a charger to the battery I want to spike it may present to the desulfator a voltage high enough that it won't pulse.

Eugen - I don't have an oscilloscope here at home. I'd have to borrow one from work or bring the desulfator to work. I've got some 100X high voltage probes at work.

The box/paperwork lists the cutoff voltages as 11V for 12V battery, 22V for 24V battery, 33V for 36V battery & 44V for 48V battery.
The listed pulse frequency is 10KHZ
Peak voltage is 60-100V
Peak amp is 2amp max
Working amp is 20mA
Cutoff amp <5mA (not sure what this spec is)

Thanks Matt! Nice to see the specs, so a 10A/200V diode should be plenty good to test with. I'll report when I get it.

@MattA look at this. I thought this battery was not so good. It charged up to 12.4V. Hooked up the desulfamacator and this is what it shows on the scope during pulsing. The spike is about 1.4V.

Well, this device is a funny one. Here are a few observations/thoughts I have about it.

The desulfator has no battery of its own, and no cable to hook it up to a power source. The power source of this device is the battery that it's supposed to desulfate. That's probably why it only comes on if the battery is 11.5V or higher. I also noticed that when the battery was 13.1V the device did not start beeping/pulsing.

The manual states that the pulse frequency is 10kHz. What I see on the scope is a spike approximately every 16 microseconds. That would give us a frequency of about 62.5kHz. Also in the manual: Peak Voltage = 60-100V. Well, what I see is a spike that's around 1.5V. Perhaps the higher voltage spike happens when the battery is in worse shape, therefore lower voltage? The battery I tested it with was 12.4V and maybe it's not sulfated enough?

In any case, the proof is in the pudding. I'll try to find a battery in worse shape and try it again.

You may wonder if the scope might be malfunctioning, or out of calibration. This could be the case, but very unlikely, I rarely used it in the last few years and it was fine last I used it.

Eugen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:33 am Well, this device is a funny one. Here are a few observations/thoughts I have about it.

The desulfator has no battery of its own, and no cable to hook it up to a power source. The power source of this device is the battery that it's supposed to desulfate. That's probably why it only comes on if the battery is 11.5V or higher. I also noticed that when the battery was 13.1V the device did not start beeping/pulsing.

The manual states that the pulse frequency is 10kHz. What I see on the scope is a spike approximately every 16 microseconds. That would give us a frequency of about 62.5kHz. Also in the manual: Peak Voltage = 60-100V. Well, what I see is a spike that's around 1.5V. Perhaps the higher voltage spike happens when the battery is in worse shape, therefore lower voltage? The battery I tested it with was 12.4V and maybe it's not sulfated enough?

In any case, the proof is in the pudding. I'll try to find a battery in worse shape and try it again.

You may wonder if the scope might be malfunctioning, or out of calibration. This could be the case, but very unlikely, I rarely used it in the last few years and it was fine last I used it.

I have a large battery for the winch in the bigg trailer that I would like you can try it on .

Dave

That'd be great @DavidBarkey! The only wrinkle is that I can't come by today, tomorrow I'm gone to Toronto for a haul, so I don't know when I'll be able to come by.

Eugen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:18 am That'd be great @DavidBarkey! The only wrinkle is that I can't come by today, tomorrow I'm gone to Toronto for a haul, so I don't know when I'll be able to come by.

When ever you can . I sure you will need eggs soon anyways .

Dave

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:22 pm When ever you can . I sure you will need eggs soon anyways .

Dave

We sure do need eggs Dave, for more than a month, and I still haven't been able to come over and get some. It's been that way lately with me.

Here's the results from last weeks desulfating. Test#4 results below are the new results.
Batteries 1 & 4 were desulfated for 24 hours. Batteries 2 & 3 were run to the desulfators low voltage cutoff (less than 24 hours). I also let the batteries sit disconnected from the charger and each other overnight before checking the capacity. Results are still not looking better.

Battery #1 (jump pack battery) test results:
Test #1 3.07AH
Test #2 2.95AH
Test #3 2.85AH
Test #4 2.50AH

Battery #2 Inverter battery #1:
Test #1 0AH, ran about 10 seconds under 1A test load.
Test #2 0.18AH
Test #3 0.14AH
Test #4 0.02AH

Battery #3 Inverter battery #2:
Test #1 0AH. Cannot support the 1A test load. Battery voltage drops to ~9.5V when the test load is applied.
Test #2 0AH, ran about 5 seconds under 1A test load.
Test #3 0AH, ran about 10 seconds under 1A test load.
Test #4 0AH. Does not support 1A load. 1A load = 9.x Volt when the load is applied.

Battery #4 Inverter battery #3:
Test #1 3.41AH
Test #2 3.9AH
Test #3 3.73AH
Test #4 3.15AH

I've got test #5 in progress. Battery #4 is powering the desulfator through a diode while the desulfator is connected to either battery #2 or battery #3. Battery #3 will not run the desulfator after sitting overnight but it ran for 24 hours while powererd though the diode from battery #4.

Below is the updated test data for test runs 5 & 6. Doesn't look like I'm making any progress. For test runs 5 & 6 I let the desulfator run until the batteries died. I did experiment with a good battery powering one of the 0AH batteries through a 600V diode. Seemed to work ok. At some point I will experiment using a conventional bettery charger (transformer + rectifier based) instead of the modern smart charger I'm using.

Battery #1 (jump pack battery) test results:
Test #1 3.07AH
Test #2 2.95AH
Test #3 2.85AH
Test #4 2.50AH
Test #5 2.83AH
Test #6 3.39AH

Battery #2 Inverter battery #1:
Test #1 0AH, ran about 10 seconds under 1A test load.
Test #2 0.18AH
Test #3 0.14AH
Test #4 0.02AH
Test #5 0.04AH
Test #6 0.1AH

Battery #3 Inverter battery #2:
Test #1 0AH. Cannot support the 1A test load. Battery voltage drops to ~9.5V when the test load is applied.
Test #2 0AH, ran about 5 seconds under 1A test load.
Test #3 0AH, ran about 10 seconds under 1A test load.
Test #4 0AH. Does not support 1A load. 1A load = 9.x Volt when the load is applied.
Test #5 0.0AH. Does not support 1A load.
Test #6 0.0AH. Does not support 1A load.

Battery #4 Inverter battery #3:
Test #1 3.41AH
Test #2 3.9AH
Test #3 3.73AH
Test #4 3.15AH
Test #5 1.31AH
Test #6 3.03AH

@MattA thank you for the detailed report. I have to say I'm not so impressed with my desulfator. I was going to return it but due to my dragging my feet about it the return window has closed

Oh well