Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

Gordy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:30 pm I am thinking locked differential in most of that video And concerning our recent safety chat, especially with the blower As to the blower; 2 stage in powder dry snow, definitely getting the job done nicely.


Gordy

Talk about locked differential... I've been seriously considering welding my spider gears. I mean, do I really need a stinkin' differential? I mean, this ain't no smooth driving convertible BMW, it's a tractor! Maybe I'll open a thread about it.

Now I want one of my Case tractors to smoke this guy's tractor!

Eugen wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:49 pm

Gordy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:30 pm I am thinking locked differential in most of that video And concerning our recent safety chat, especially with the blower As to the blower; 2 stage in powder dry snow, definitely getting the job done nicely.


Gordy

Talk about locked differential... I've been seriously considering welding my spider gears. I mean, do I really need a stinkin' differential? I mean, this ain't no smooth driving convertible BMW, it's a tractor! Maybe I'll open a thread about it.

Now I want one of my Case tractors to smoke this guy's tractor!

I don't think you could turn a 4 series with a locked diff.

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:52 pm

I don't think you could turn a 4 series with a locked diff.

sounds to me like you're challenging me

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:52 pm

Eugen wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:49 pm

Gordy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:30 pm I am thinking locked differential in most of that video And concerning our recent safety chat, especially with the blower As to the blower; 2 stage in powder dry snow, definitely getting the job done nicely.


Gordy

Talk about locked differential... I've been seriously considering welding my spider gears. I mean, do I really need a stinkin' differential? I mean, this ain't no smooth driving convertible BMW, it's a tractor! Maybe I'll open a thread about it.

Now I want one of my Case tractors to smoke this guy's tractor!

I don't think you could turn a 4 series with a locked diff.

Okay here's a crazy idea for you: One hydraulic motor per rear wheel. Probably just make it one of those hydraulic drive hubs. Then some kind of sophisticated sliding scale of sending fluid to the left and right hub according to the position of the front two wheels. If the wheels are straight then both hubs turn at the exact same rate if the wheels are turned hard left then the left hub turns slower than the right hub etc.

Ridiculous overkill I'm sure. But perhaps technically easier to accomplish than a locking or limited slip differential. At least for these Case machines.

And you would have a locked differential at all times, even in a turn. But not a lock that's fighting you, but a lock that's ideal for the turn you're attempting to make.

Bob

You guys are crazy . Lol why would someone think about a locked differential or 2 hydro motors running the rear. Lol I mean who would want to have traction all the time. 2 motors have always been on my mind. Something along the lines of a hydraulic drive on a scissor lift. Everytime I'm on one I look at the hydraulic drive motors and steering knuckles and imagine the rear of my ingersoll set up with it. I'd like to have 4 wheel steer and crab walk please. I've never looked into what size motors these are or what they are capable of as far as torque and tire size.

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Gee thanks@Jancoe Now you have planted seeds. Some one will probably water them. I had never thought about scavenging a scissor lift drive system. Now I have to add that to my scavenger hunt.

thebuildist wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:30 pm

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:52 pm

Eugen wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:49 pm

Talk about locked differential... I've been seriously considering welding my spider gears. I mean, do I really need a stinkin' differential? I mean, this ain't no smooth driving convertible BMW, it's a tractor! Maybe I'll open a thread about it.

Now I want one of my Case tractors to smoke this guy's tractor!

I don't think you could turn a 4 series with a locked diff.

Okay here's a crazy idea for you: One hydraulic motor per rear wheel. Probably just make it one of those hydraulic drive hubs. Then some kind of sophisticated sliding scale of sending fluid to the left and right hub according to the position of the front two wheels. If the wheels are straight then both hubs turn at the exact same rate if the wheels are turned hard left then the left hub turns slower than the right hub etc.

Ridiculous overkill I'm sure. But perhaps technically easier to accomplish than a locking or limited slip differential. At least for these Case machines.

And you would have a locked differential at all times, even in a turn. But not a lock that's fighting you, but a lock that's ideal for the turn you're attempting to make.

Bob

Cub Cadet does something link that with there Syncro Steer zero turn mower . Difference is they use a hydro static unit for each wheel , but instead of steering arms they are controlled by the steering wheel which also control direction of the front wheels . I have a client than has a couple of them , and they drive really nice and are far superior to zero turns on the side of a hill .

That being said I have plans and most of the parts to build a 4wd all hydralic deisel tractor based off 400 series with hydra wheel motors for the front drive axle.

If I were to choose something practical I'd do what Dave has done already, individual brakes for the rear wheels to be able to stop the wheel that's turning when you want to "lock" the differential.

@thebuildist not sure if you mean to put a hydraulic motor directly to the wheel somehow, but you then lose the ability to have two speed ranges right?

@Jancoe sounds interesting yet I don't really understand it. Never seen a scissor lift up close.

@DavidBarkey do you mean a rear axle in front and rear? Like an articulated tractor?

Building an articulated tractor has been on my mind in the past, in part because of the desire of having traction on both rear and front axles. But it seemed to me that you need a stronger engine and hydraulic pump for something like this.

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 7:35 am

thebuildist wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:30 pm
Okay here's a crazy idea for you: One hydraulic motor per rear wheel. Probably just make it one of those hydraulic drive hubs. Then some kind of sophisticated sliding scale of sending fluid to the left and right hub according to the position of the front two wheels. If the wheels are straight then both hubs turn at the exact same rate if the wheels are turned hard left then the left hub turns slower than the right hub etc.

Ridiculous overkill I'm sure. But perhaps technically easier to accomplish than a locking or limited slip differential. At least for these Case machines.

And you would have a locked differential at all times, even in a turn. But not a lock that's fighting you, but a lock that's ideal for the turn you're attempting to make.

Bob

Cub Cadet does something link that with there Syncro Steer zero turn mower . Difference is they use a hydro static unit for each wheel , but instead of steering arms they are controlled by the steering wheel which also control direction of the front wheels . I have a client than has a couple of them , and they drive really nice and are far superior to zero turns on the side of a hill .

Interesting, now I want to look at one. About ten years ago there was a Argo type 6 wheeler with rear axles very close and front axle a little ahead. The front wheels steered in a light (high speed) turn but when you turned hard, brakes were applied and you skidded around like a dozer.

That being said I have plans and most of the parts to build a 4wd all hydralic deisel tractor based off 400 series with hydra wheel motors for the front drive axle.

I've also been collecting parts for a similar project. I could make 4 or 5 now, lol. Just gotta git my sh...act together!!!!!

Eugen wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:32 am If I were to choose something practical I'd do what Dave has done already, individual brakes for the rear wheels to be able to stop the wheel that's turning when you want to "lock" the differential.

@thebuildist not sure if you mean to put a hydraulic motor directly to the wheel somehow, but you then lose the ability to have two speed ranges right?

@Jancoe sounds interesting yet I don't really understand it. Never seen a scissor lift up close.

@DavidBarkey do you mean a rear axle in front and rear? Like an articulated tractor?

Building an articulated tractor has been on my mind in the past, in part because of the desire of having traction on both rear and front axles. But it seemed to me that you need a stronger engine and hydraulic pump for something like this.

like this mounted on a spindle each side for the front axle with the 400 series diff in the rear

@Jancoe Case Nut / Nut Case

FUTZ wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:42 am
Interesting, now I want to look at one. About ten years ago there was a Argo type 6 wheeler with rear axles very close and front axle a little ahead. The front wheels steered in a light (high speed) turn but when you turned hard, brakes were applied and you skidded around like a dozer.

I've also been collecting parts for a similar project. I could make 4 or 5 now, lol. Just gotta git my sh...act together!!!!!

Go go @FUTZ this is what winter is for right?!

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 1:50 pm
image.png
like this mounted on a spindle each side for the front axle with the 400 series diff in the rear

So it's a hydraulic motor and wheel hub in one wow, never seen something like this. Neat!



But, but.. I know we're talking about locking differential. The first winter I wanted to clear snow with the snowcaster it was using the 226. It was a new tractor for me, just got it then, and didn't know what to expect. I was very disappointed and even posted on the sister site at the time. Being a noob I had no idea why I kept getting stuck with one wheel turning and the other not. People explained to me that Case tractors don't have locking differential. In comparison, this winter I've been blowing snow without a problem; not once. The difference is that now I got wheel weights and tire chains. Why then would I still want locking differential? Two reasons: first, for the garden. I've been reading posts by farmers who said plowing or tilling the garden is much nicer with locked wheels, easier to keep the tractor going straight. And second, for the cool factor.

At this point I have so many parts tractors that I'm really considering turning one into a full time locked differential tractor and see if I can live with the downsides.

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 1:50 pm

Eugen wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:32 am If I were to choose something practical I'd do what Dave has done already, individual brakes for the rear wheels to be able to stop the wheel that's turning when you want to "lock" the differential.

@thebuildist not sure if you mean to put a hydraulic motor directly to the wheel somehow, but you then lose the ability to have two speed ranges right?

@Jancoe sounds interesting yet I don't really understand it. Never seen a scissor lift up close.

@DavidBarkey do you mean a rear axle in front and rear? Like an articulated tractor?

Building an articulated tractor has been on my mind in the past, in part because of the desire of having traction on both rear and front axles. But it seemed to me that you need a stronger engine and hydraulic pump for something like this.

image.png
like this mounted on a spindle each side for the front axle with the 400 series diff in the rear

6 or 8 years ago I was looking at a set of those, to do what you are planning. If I remember correctly they were off a Toro ZT. $500 each was a turn off, and my very limited hydraulic engineering ability was the killer As far as getting them synced with the rears.

I have been looking but I can't find it now, or even remember if it was on the old site or before that on Yahoo Anyway there was a line drawing for an external diff lock. So you build 2 top hats, like President Lincoln is known for. The tube needs to be big enough to side over the axle hub, the top needs to be drilled to match the lug holes, then the rim of the top hat is made from a large sprocket. Then there are 2 shafts each with a small sprocket on one end, these line up with the sprocket end of the top hat. The 2 shafts come together at the center rear of the tractor, with a lovejoy type connector to joint the shafts when needed. One half of the lovejoy is mounted solide to one shaft, while the other half is slotted so it can slide (to engage and disengage) but not turn on the end of the other shaft.

Like Eugen said. I don't really need a locking diff for the snow rig, 55 pounds of fluid in each of the tires, 100 pounds of cast iron in each rear rim and chains on the tires have proven very effective. But in the summer with no chains and damp grass that extra weight don't mean much


Gordy

Just a quick ramble. The cool factor is a neat thing Eugen, sorta like having loaded tires, Now, I don’t know enough about this topic to contribute any thing, especially about hydraulic stuff.
In some cases when both wheels are getting power and are spinning in the mud, dirt or snow, you then have less control to go straight. So it can work against you at times. If you are on a side hill, like the angle your at when plowing sod, the tractor has more of a chance to slide down hill if both wheels are spinning in stead of just one. The stationary wheel helps keep the tractor straight. If both wheels are powered and not spinning, then yes you have more traction.
I would rather have the option to lock and unlock the differential when I needed. Same as 4 wheel drive, put it in when needed.
When plowing sod, you lower the tire pressure in the tire that’s on the sod and not in the furrow. This does a few things. One, it levels the tractor a bit to put more weight on the sod tire, two, it makes the tire softer and more flexible, with aids in traction. Three, lower tire pressure puts more foot print of the tire on the ground, aiding in traction. The tire on the sod is the one to most likely spin while sod plowing. So these three things help keep the tire from spinning.
Split rear brakes are sorta like a manual abs system. You can slow down or stop the spinning wheel to sent power to the other wheel which might have traction. These help greatly. My JD 140H3 garden tractor has split rear brakes, and they do come in handy while doing snow removal or if in the woods hauling a small trailer doing firewood work.
Of course, adding weight and chains are a great help for traction. And I’ve seen in some cases where they add an extra steel wheel with lugs to the outside of rear tires. Thieve steel wheels don’t touch the ground in normal hard surface driving, but if on soft surface, once the tire sinks the steel wheel begins to add traction. The farther the tire sinks, the more traction the steel wheel gives.

So that’s enough rambling for now, if I come up with any other strange traction aids I’ll add them.
So for me, I don’t think I would want a permanently locked rear differential. Just my opinion. You have yours.

Noel

@propane1 Can you show us a picture of these and on steel wheel you are talking about ?

I’ll see if I can find them Dave. Was on you tube.

Noel

Here’s some pictures of the steel wheel add on I seen before. Can’t find the one that was hydraulically operated. Two cylinders would turn the centre of the wheel and push out the lugs on the steel wheel. And retract them when not needed.

Noel

@propane1 excellent ramble Noel! The points you made are spot on. I can only speak to my own experience, but I would not want full time locked differential for the reasons you mentioned. I would add a couple of more reasons. One would be safety, if I get into a hard pull I want some slip. The last thing I would want to happen is to much traction that’s how a tractor can flip over. Also I’ve seen quite a few rear ends go to the junk yard soon after they were welded solid. That’s because it’s putting a lot of stress on the components that wasn’t there before. Ever time you turn the inside tire has to move at the same speed as the outside one. That means in soft ground it’s making ruts. On hard surfaces the inside tire will hop and skid and put all that force into trying to twist the differential. It doesn’t take long before something has to give.
Having a brake for each wheel is a much better solution. If you look at modern equipment most have a differential lock, but it is intended for limited use, just at the moment you need it. Split brakes are still the norm.

Just my opinion from my experience, take what helps and leave the rest!

On another note, the added steel wheel has been around for a long time. I can see how it would be helpful. Here are a couple of pictures of Fords set up. I think there may have been other designs too.

Those steel wheels look like something that you would find on a Mad Max desert raider vehicle . Looks like they would work , but could cause some serious damage to .

@DavidBarkey i wouldn’t want my foot anywhere near it!

I realize we all have quite a bit of experience with our tractors, but I thought if someone new to them was reading this maybe I should elaborate on what I mean about too much traction.

If you look at these pictures I think we have all seen this at a tractor pull. These guys are actually transferring the weight of the tractor to the rear to give more traction to pull the sled. Most of the time tractor pull rules will require wheelie bars on the back to keep the tractor from flipping over, especially on modified tractors. If you get into this situation at home while using your tractor it can flip all the way over and crush you very quickly, before you can stop it. That’s why I say I’d rather have some wheel slip.

The guy on that Farmall is really risking breaking the front wheels off when he comes back down. Ask me how I know that can happen!

Anyway probably not necessary, but I figured I’d add it.

It’s, 3/4’s of a second for that Farmalls front wheels to leave the ground, and then the tractor to be completely upside down. You’ve got no chance to catch it from going over. I know of a few people here where I live that we’re killed because of the tractor flipping over on them.


Noel

Maybe fab up some of these wheels? What could go wrong? I see some are removable on the type Noel was speaking of.

Now somewhere on the net I remember a topic on a forum where the guy had built an external diff lock. Think of it as follows. Disc brake rotor installed but machined teeth on outer edge. On the back lower rear axle area was some pillow blocks with a driveshaft with gears on the ends and a disconnect on the shaft. I'll look for it. Seemed like it would work?

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In the end if trying to achieve traction without repercussion I would install dual brakes. It's on my list of things I wish I had time to do.

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JSinMO wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:40 pm @DavidBarkey i wouldn’t want my foot anywhere near it!

I realize we all have quite a bit of experience with our tractors, but I thought if someone new to them was reading this maybe I should elaborate on what I mean about too much traction.

If you look at these pictures I think we have all seen this at a tractor pull. 0C44496D-4427-4E06-9C36-3AB2FEB0A31F.jpegF6984AB5-1275-4132-9FDD-0A64E16A2B33.jpegF6984AB5-1275-4132-9FDD-0A64E16A2B33.jpeg
These guys are actually transferring the weight of the tractor to the rear to give more traction to pull the sled. Most of the time tractor pull rules will require wheelie bars on the back to keep the tractor from flipping over, especially on modified tractors. If you get into this situation at home while using your tractor it can flip all the way over and crush you very quickly, before you can stop it. That’s why I say I’d rather have some wheel slip.

The guy on that Farmall is really risking breaking the front wheels off when he comes back down. Ask me how I know that can happen!

Anyway probably not necessary, but I figured I’d add it.

Thanks for waking up an old memory from long ago At one tractor pull they were half way through a weight class. Next tractor up, a grampa came out with a JD B. The crowd started roaring and laughing. The old boy started pulling, you could here the engine start to lug after a bit and the tires started to wrinkle. More luging and wrinkles getting bigger, the front end started getting lighter till the wheels were off the ground and bobbing up and own with each pop of the exhaust. Pretty soon the draw bar was on the ground and still pulling, The engine was turning so slow I could hear and count each pop from the exhaust. When he finally spun out he must have hit the clutch and breaks at the same time because the rears stopped turning and the front stayed in the air for a while then slowly came down. He got a standing ovation because he had pulled 100 feet farther than anyone else had up to that point.

,
Gordy

Pictures of the hydraulic operated steel wheels I mention earlier.

Noel

@propane1 That is quite the setup . It would take a healthy bite of the ground .

A similar John Deere pulling story like Gordys, from years ago. A fella I know had a JD B or A, can’t remember the model, but any way it was a gas 2 cylinder tractor. He had it at the pulls. Rear tires were basically bald in the centre. He started pulling, and kept going and going. Just when you thought it was gunna stop, it just kept going. So the weight got to the front of the drag and the tractor kept going, the fella sitting at the back operating the drag, decided to get up and he got up to the front of the drag to put more weight up there to stop the tractor. Tractor just kept going, barely running, it passed the full pull mark and kept going till he ran out of track. Quite a thing to see. Crowd was going crazy.

Noel

Good memories @Gordy , @propane1 ! As much as I can do with out the green and yellow, I have to admit those old A and B models had some good lugging power. Growing up with Farmall and AC 4 cylinder engines those 2 cylinder JD’s always sounded like they had a miss to me!
I used to pull my M and Super H, just farm stock class.
In one weight class it was always just me and 1 guy on an old JD. I’d win one then he’d win one! Just like you guys said you’d think he was done and that stupid 2 cylinder would pop a couple more time and edge me out!
I was just having fun but he got pretty serious into pulling and ended up getting disqualified from farm stock, I forget what he did to the tractor, but since it was just me and him In that weight class, I asked the judges to let us pull anyway. I never could beat him after that!