Locked differential or AWD or 4WD

Tools, fabrication, measuring, storing...
User avatar
DavidBarkey Canada
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:35 am
Location: Waverley On.
Has thanked: 17068 times
Been thanked: 10411 times

Re: Locked differential or AWD or 4WD

Post by DavidBarkey »

@Jancoe Case Nut / Nut Case :hm: :rofl:
Dave
Mad Tractor Builder
User avatar
Eugen Canada
Posts: 5141
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:52 pm
Location: Port Mcnicoll, Ontario
Has thanked: 11934 times
Been thanked: 16194 times
Contact:

Re: Check this snowblower out

Post by Eugen »

FUTZ wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:42 am
Interesting, now I want to look at one. About ten years ago there was a Argo type 6 wheeler with rear axles very close and front axle a little ahead. The front wheels steered in a light (high speed) turn but when you turned hard, brakes were applied and you skidded around like a dozer.

I've also been collecting parts for a similar project. I could make 4 or 5 now, lol. Just gotta git my sh...act together!!!!!
Go go @FUTZ this is what winter is for right?! :whip: :whip: :D
Case 224, 444, 644, 680E
Kubota B26 :blush:
User avatar
Eugen Canada
Posts: 5141
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:52 pm
Location: Port Mcnicoll, Ontario
Has thanked: 11934 times
Been thanked: 16194 times
Contact:

Re: Locked differential or AWD or 4WD

Post by Eugen »

DavidBarkey wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 1:50 pm
image.png
like this mounted on a spindle each side for the front axle with the 400 series diff in the rear
So it's a hydraulic motor and wheel hub in one :O wow, never seen something like this. Neat! :wave3:



But, but.. I know we're talking about locking differential. The first winter I wanted to clear snow with the snowcaster it was using the 226. It was a new tractor for me, just got it then, and didn't know what to expect. I was very disappointed and even posted on the sister site at the time. Being a noob I had no idea why I kept getting stuck with one wheel turning and the other not. People explained to me that Case tractors don't have locking differential. In comparison, this winter I've been blowing snow without a problem; not once. The difference is that now I got wheel weights and tire chains. Why then would I still want locking differential? Two reasons: first, for the garden. I've been reading posts by farmers who said plowing or tilling the garden is much nicer with locked wheels, easier to keep the tractor going straight. And second, for the cool factor.

At this point I have so many parts tractors that I'm really considering turning one into a full time locked differential tractor and see if I can live with the downsides.
Case 224, 444, 644, 680E
Kubota B26 :blush:
User avatar
Gordy United States of America
Posts: 653
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:24 pm
Location: MapleLake,MN
Has thanked: 2343 times
Been thanked: 2136 times

Re: Locked differential or AWD or 4WD

Post by Gordy »

DavidBarkey wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 1:50 pm
Eugen wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:32 am If I were to choose something practical I'd do what Dave has done already, individual brakes for the rear wheels to be able to stop the wheel that's turning when you want to "lock" the differential.

@thebuildist not sure if you mean to put a hydraulic motor directly to the wheel somehow, but you then lose the ability to have two speed ranges right?

@Jancoe sounds interesting yet I don't really understand it. Never seen a scissor lift up close.

@DavidBarkey do you mean a rear axle in front and rear? Like an articulated tractor?

Building an articulated tractor has been on my mind in the past, in part because of the desire of having traction on both rear and front axles. But it seemed to me that you need a stronger engine and hydraulic pump for something like this.
image.png
like this mounted on a spindle each side for the front axle with the 400 series diff in the rear


6 or 8 years ago I was looking at a set of those, to do what you are planning. If I remember correctly they were off a Toro ZT. $500 each was a turn off, and my very limited hydraulic engineering ability was the killer :oops: As far as getting them synced with the rears.

I have been looking but I can't find it now, or even remember if it was on the old site or before that on Yahoo :oops: Anyway there was a line drawing for an external diff lock. So you build 2 top hats, like President Lincoln is known for. The tube needs to be big enough to side over the axle hub, the top needs to be drilled to match the lug holes, then the rim of the top hat is made from a large sprocket. Then there are 2 shafts each with a small sprocket on one end, these line up with the sprocket end of the top hat. The 2 shafts come together at the center rear of the tractor, with a lovejoy type connector to joint the shafts when needed. One half of the lovejoy is mounted solide to one shaft, while the other half is slotted so it can slide (to engage and disengage) but not turn on the end of the other shaft.

Like Eugen said. I don't really need a locking diff for the snow rig, 55 pounds of fluid in each of the tires, 100 pounds of cast iron in each rear rim and chains on the tires have proven very effective. But in the summer with no chains and damp grass that extra weight don't mean much :violin:

:cheers:
Gordy
User avatar
propane1 Canada
Posts: 2426
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:32 am
Location: PEI, Canada
Has thanked: 5740 times
Been thanked: 8669 times

Re: Locked differential or AWD or 4WD

Post by propane1 »

Just a quick ramble. The cool factor is a neat thing Eugen, sorta like having loaded tires, :giggle: Now, I don’t know enough about this topic to contribute any thing, especially about hydraulic stuff.
In some cases when both wheels are getting power and are spinning in the mud, dirt or snow, you then have less control to go straight. So it can work against you at times. If you are on a side hill, like the angle your at when plowing sod, the tractor has more of a chance to slide down hill if both wheels are spinning in stead of just one. The stationary wheel helps keep the tractor straight. If both wheels are powered and not spinning, then yes you have more traction.
I would rather have the option to lock and unlock the differential when I needed. Same as 4 wheel drive, put it in when needed.
When plowing sod, you lower the tire pressure in the tire that’s on the sod and not in the furrow. This does a few things. One, it levels the tractor a bit to put more weight on the sod tire, two, it makes the tire softer and more flexible, with aids in traction. Three, lower tire pressure puts more foot print of the tire on the ground, aiding in traction. The tire on the sod is the one to most likely spin while sod plowing. So these three things help keep the tire from spinning.
Split rear brakes are sorta like a manual abs system. You can slow down or stop the spinning wheel to sent power to the other wheel which might have traction. These help greatly. My JD 140H3 garden tractor has split rear brakes, and they do come in handy while doing snow removal or if in the woods hauling a small trailer doing firewood work.
Of course, adding weight and chains are a great help for traction. And I’ve seen in some cases where they add an extra steel wheel with lugs to the outside of rear tires. Thieve steel wheels don’t touch the ground in normal hard surface driving, but if on soft surface, once the tire sinks the steel wheel begins to add traction. The farther the tire sinks, the more traction the steel wheel gives.

So that’s enough rambling for now, if I come up with any other strange traction aids I’ll add them.
So for me, I don’t think I would want a permanently locked rear differential. Just my opinion. You have yours. :D

Noel
User avatar
DavidBarkey Canada
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:35 am
Location: Waverley On.
Has thanked: 17068 times
Been thanked: 10411 times

Re: Locked differential or AWD or 4WD

Post by DavidBarkey »

@propane1 Can you show us a picture of these and on steel wheel you are talking about ?
Dave
Mad Tractor Builder
User avatar
propane1 Canada
Posts: 2426
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:32 am
Location: PEI, Canada
Has thanked: 5740 times
Been thanked: 8669 times

Re: Locked differential or AWD or 4WD

Post by propane1 »

I’ll see if I can find them Dave. Was on you tube.

Noel
User avatar
propane1 Canada
Posts: 2426
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:32 am
Location: PEI, Canada
Has thanked: 5740 times
Been thanked: 8669 times

Re: Locked differential or AWD or 4WD

Post by propane1 »

Here’s some pictures of the steel wheel add on I seen before. Can’t find the one that was hydraulically operated. Two cylinders would turn the centre of the wheel and push out the lugs on the steel wheel. And retract them when not needed.

Noel
Attachments
27BC1D46-2F9B-468F-9FB2-0108CBE168C1.png
EC8298F6-E84A-4DBC-8569-6DDAB4CE6870.png
63E722B8-910F-44A7-9D82-B625358DD966.png
B75C2EAD-79E8-42B1-B353-5D5DA2C5F7C2.png
JSinMO United States of America
Posts: 1524
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:16 pm
Location: Missouri
Has thanked: 11924 times
Been thanked: 6570 times

Re: Locked differential or AWD or 4WD

Post by JSinMO »

@propane1 excellent ramble Noel! The points you made are spot on. I can only speak to my own experience, but I would not want full time locked differential for the reasons you mentioned. I would add a couple of more reasons. One would be safety, if I get into a hard pull I want some slip. The last thing I would want to happen is to much traction that’s how a tractor can flip over. Also I’ve seen quite a few rear ends go to the junk yard soon after they were welded solid. That’s because it’s putting a lot of stress on the components that wasn’t there before. Ever time you turn the inside tire has to move at the same speed as the outside one. That means in soft ground it’s making ruts. On hard surfaces the inside tire will hop and skid and put all that force into trying to twist the differential. It doesn’t take long before something has to give.
Having a brake for each wheel is a much better solution. If you look at modern equipment most have a differential lock, but it is intended for limited use, just at the moment you need it. Split brakes are still the norm.

Just my opinion from my experience, take what helps and leave the rest!

On another note, the added steel wheel has been around for a long time. I can see how it would be helpful. Here are a couple of pictures of Fords set up.
2E3D00C5-211A-452E-9B4A-F2ABE788A75A.jpeg
F1B43D9A-EAC6-4B06-BE58-B54813CEDCB7.jpeg
169BE75C-BD29-478F-84B7-6A6B29BF8DF8.jpeg
I think there may have been other designs too.
User avatar
DavidBarkey Canada
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:35 am
Location: Waverley On.
Has thanked: 17068 times
Been thanked: 10411 times

Re: Locked differential or AWD or 4WD

Post by DavidBarkey »

Those steel wheels look like something that you would find on a Mad Max desert raider vehicle . :O Looks like they would work , but could cause some serious damage to .
Dave
Mad Tractor Builder
Post Reply