Colt Case Ingersoll Garden Tractors

Well the should be happy . I finally got the 12v propane micro furnace (small RV) in the greenhouse today . Runs off BBQ tank and solar battery bank in greenhouse . After test run set it for 50 degrees F . We will see what the temp is in there in the am before solar gain . If I can maintain over night temps she can start her seeds . If not I might have to put cot in the shop . Here's hoping that another off the list.

Dave

Hope it works Dave! I'm curious about that as I've been interested in setting up a greenhouse for some time. A few days ago I came across this video. I don't have the land for setting up geothermal anything, but you might. Not sure it applies to our climate, meaning, I don't know how deep one needs to go with the pipes to get a decent temperature here.






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O3ifR-3zvs


Oh, one more thing I wanted to say. When our village was vibrant, in the 30s,40s,50s, when it was a real port, there was a fellow here who had an unheated greenhouse and he grew in it lots of things. Look

Is the heater exhaust vented outside Dave?

Noel

@Eugen Yes geothermal will work up here, but you need to bury your air pipes about 8' deep . I am thinking about it down the road when we expand the greenhouse . There is a length per square foot needed . The larger the greenhouse the greater the ability to maintain heat over night . Larger grow houses can have compost units in them and they give off a lot of heat . Larger unit can house critters and they help with heat but need to make sure they don't over heat just like the plants.
Ability to grow your own food plus clean fresh water will be worth more than gold sooner than you think .


Dave

Propane57 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:36 pm Is the heater exhaust vented outside Dave?

Noel

Yes , combustion air in and out from out side . I extended the intake and exhaust pipes to recover some of the exhaust heat as the unit is only 75% efficient. The extension are 4' long and the intake is plastic lines to stop whore frosting . I plan on put in in a Battery CO detector just because . It is a complete unit from a tent trailer with a 2 stage regulator to a 20 lb tank . Yes I did the bubble test on all my connections . Being a beer drinker I am familiar with gas leaks , or at least the is .


Dave

Once the backhoe's running your 8ft deep pipes can go 10 ft or deeper

Thanks Dave. Sounds good. The 75% efficient is law on some heaters. Some old heaters were lower than that and government stepped in to make them more efficient, so they passed the law that they had to be 75% efficient or more. That was years ago. In some green houses they did not vent the heaters out. Propane exhaust, like most exhaust, has a lot of moisture from it and the green houses wanted that. And the exhaust gives of a lot of carbon dioxide, which the plants also want. But, if the burner goes haywire and starts to burn a yellowish flame it can become carbon monoxide. Safest is to have the exhaust out. Good for you.
I hear of people in the US using those non vented heaters in their houses, Jumpins may be 100 % efficient, but you could be 100% dead from it too. I’ve seen videos lately of some fellas with sub compact or compact tractors with cabs doin snow removal, using those infrared propane heaters with a one pound propane cylinder hooked to it, in their cab for heat. Jumpins.

Rambling again.


Noel

I collected for free about ten old thermopane sliding doors around ten years ago. I've got them stored behind my shop with a tarp over them. I've wanted to build a greenhouse for years and just have not gotten around to it. I think I'll be in the ground before it ever gets done!

Keep the Peace
Harry

Being in the rv service business I come across little goodies that I can use all the time. Rv furnaces are one of them. Just so your aware. That little 12k-16k btu furnace will go through more propane than you may realize. You said you extended the intake and exhaust pipes. Don't put any screens on the ends to stop bugs and whatnot from entering. With extended runs you want all the flow you can get through them. How big is the greenhouse? Sounds like a nice project you go got going on.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

This is the greenhouse guys . 8' x 12' x 7' ceiling . Insulated , double pain windows (patio door glass ) with vapour barrier on the inside of them . I purposely vented out outside because there is not enough space to have enough plant mass to offset the CO2 . The extension tubes a straight run 48" and are slightly oversized to reduce any extra resistance .

Dave

Some high efficiency Greenhouses if you are interested.

https://www.motherearthnews.com/organic ... z79ndzraw/

https://www.motherearthnews.com/natural ... -zbcz1312/

https://www.motherearthnews.com/organic ... -zbcz1706/

https://store.motherearthnews.com/produ ... greenhouse

Here's a huge site on solar and greenhouses and heat storage.

https://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/S ... tm#Storage


Gordy

@Gordy I have read a lot of those articles over the years . Mine is a mix of some of those ideas . Very tall ceiling height windows , insulated , with 2' frost wall insulation . solar powered battery bank . I wanted to go in ground and air tubes , but was not in the cards at the time .
Hemlock post and beam construction with post bottoms tarred . Exterior is insulated garage door panels . with reflective foil foam board on the inside . It get so hot in there we had had to install a self opening vent window . Temps in late winter can get over 100 degrees F without it .

Dave

it worked . 52 F / 11 C this morning when I went out . No from the . She can get ready to start seeds .

Dave

David I love your greenhouse. I could see myself erecting one similiar to your's on the back of a current she-shed on my property. The only problem is the rear of the shed faces west. So I would have to build one with most of the glass facing south. Maybe a hoop house would work best for me!

Keep the Peace
Harry

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:55 am @Gordy I have read a lot of those articles over the years . Mine is a mix of some of those ideas . Very tall ceiling height windows , insulated , with 2' frost wall insulation . solar powered battery bank . I wanted to go in ground and air tubes , but was not in the cards at the time .
Hemlock post and beam construction with post bottoms tarred . Exterior is insulated garage door panels . with reflective foil foam board on the inside . It get so hot in there we had had to install a self opening vent window . Temps in late winter can get over 100 degrees F without it .

Dave

Sounds good If you go on that last link and scroll down quite aways, there is a heat capture idea using old car radiators near the ceiling to heat water. There are many ways to store the heat, in ground like you mentioned, or 55 gallon barrels (painted black of coarse) daisy chained together so the heated water flows from one to the other..... and back to the radiator to be heated again. And the barrels make a good base for a bench and plant trays Is your solar setup large enough to handle a fan and small pump ?


Gordy

Gordy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:37 pm

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:55 am @Gordy I have read a lot of those articles over the years . Mine is a mix of some of those ideas . Very tall ceiling height windows , insulated , with 2' frost wall insulation . solar powered battery bank . I wanted to go in ground and air tubes , but was not in the cards at the time .
Hemlock post and beam construction with post bottoms tarred . Exterior is insulated garage door panels . with reflective foil foam board on the inside . It get so hot in there we had had to install a self opening vent window . Temps in late winter can get over 100 degrees F without it .

Dave

Sounds good If you go on that last link and scroll down quite aways, there is a heat capture idea using old car radiators near the ceiling to heat water. There are many ways to store the heat, in ground like you mentioned, or 55 gallon barrels (painted black of coarse) daisy chained together so the heated water flows from one to the other..... and back to the radiator to be heated again. And the barrels make a good base for a bench and plant trays Is your solar setup large enough to handle a fan and small pump ?


Gordy

I use a similar idea to steal cold from my well water to chill our cold room . A fan coil unit used for cold water instead of hot .
I have a solar hot water capture device that will eventually be installed .
I have about 300 watts of charging and a 250 watt wind turbine yet to be installed .

Dave

Jancoe wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:36 pm Being in the rv service business I come across little goodies that I can use all the time. Rv furnaces are one of them. Just so your aware. That little 12k-16k btu furnace will go through more propane than you may realize. You said you extended the intake and exhaust pipes. Don't put any screens on the ends to stop bugs and whatnot from entering. With extended runs you want all the flow you can get through them. How big is the greenhouse? Sounds like a nice project you go got going on.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Update , just finish first 20lb BBQ tank . Yes that was faster than expected even with a few bitter cold nights . Well, I know now it works . Going to leave it off untill she actually plants some seeds . Th extra thermal mass will help soak up more sun during the day and hold it longer into the night . @Eugen , Geothermal loops are sounding better all the time . But not this year , just way to much other stuff to finish first .

Dave

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:58 am Update , just finish first 20lb BBQ tank . Yes that was faster than expected even with a few bitter cold nights . Well, I know now it works . Going to leave it off untill she actually plants some seeds . Th extra thermal mass will help soak up more sun during the day and hold it longer into the night . @Eugen , Geothermal loops are sounding better all the time . But not this year , just way to much other stuff to finish first .

Dave

If I had anywhere near the size of your land I would not hesitate doing it. And there's no reason why you should not do it for the house. All you need is pipe and a backhoe. You know where the backhoe is. Maybe all we need is to build a narrower bucket. Or not, as you may lay multiple pipes in the same trench.

Eugen wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:15 am

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:58 am Update , just finish first 20lb BBQ tank . Yes that was faster than expected even with a few bitter cold nights . Well, I know now it works . Going to leave it off untill she actually plants some seeds . Th extra thermal mass will help soak up more sun during the day and hold it longer into the night . @Eugen , Geothermal loops are sounding better all the time . But not this year , just way to much other stuff to finish first .

Dave

If I had anywhere near the size of your land I would not hesitate doing it. And there's no reason why you should not do it for the house. All you need is pipe and a backhoe. You know where the backhoe is. Maybe all we need is to build a narrower bucket. Or not, as you may lay multiple pipes in the same trench.

How wide is your bucket ?

Dave

This geothermal heat you are talking about, does it just take heat from the ground, or down to wells, or to a stream ? Just wondering.

How many btu’s is the propane rv heater in your green house Dave. Again, just wondering.

Noel

@DavidBarkey 16 or 20 inches, not sure. I'll measure next time I can.

@Propane57 just pipes 8 feet deep circulate air.

Propane57 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:20 pm This geothermal heat you are talking about, does it just take heat from the ground, or down to wells, or to a stream ? Just wondering.

How many btu’s is the propane rv heater in your green house Dave. Again, just wondering.

Noel

Can't remember for sure , I think it is 11. Just air running through 6" big O drainage pipe . Below 6' - 7' (here ) the year round temp is 50 -55 F . So in the winter it will keep things from freezing at night and moderate the temp during the day . In the summer it will cool as well. For homes , liquid loops can be used with a heat pump to heat and cool . BUt fro a green house air is cheaper to install and run .

Dave

Thanks Dave. What is required to this ground air system. Just fans.

Noel

You ground is a little warmer, we only get 48 to 52 and have to get a little deeper.
What type of soil do you have, can you dig a trench 6 to 8 feet deep and have it stand or will it cave in?
Here is mostly sand and if I try to get 8' deep it will be 12' wide at the top. I do get some clay that will stand up and I can dig just the width of the bucket, but I never go in them trenches. Never trust clay.

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 4:41 pm

Propane57 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:20 pm This geothermal heat you are talking about, does it just take heat from the ground, or down to wells, or to a stream ? Just wondering.

How many btu’s is the propane rv heater in your green house Dave. Again, just wondering.

Noel

Can't remember for sure , I think it is 11. Just air running through 6" big O drainage pipe . Below 6' - 7' (here ) the year round temp is 50 -55 F . So in the winter it will keep things from freezing at night and moderate the temp during the day . In the summer it will cool as well. For homes , liquid loops can be used with a heat pump to heat and cool . BUt fro a green house air is cheaper to install and run .

Dave

I read up on that years ago. The problem especially in summer is the humid air condensing in the cool pipes. Add the dust and pollen that get drawn in and stick to the wet walls of the pipe and you get mold. Not good. It would take some good hi quality filters to keep the dust and pollen out of the piping.


Gordy

Gordy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:17 am

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 4:41 pm

Propane57 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:20 pm This geothermal heat you are talking about, does it just take heat from the ground, or down to wells, or to a stream ? Just wondering.

How many btu’s is the propane rv heater in your green house Dave. Again, just wondering.

Noel

Can't remember for sure , I think it is 11. Just air running through 6" big O drainage pipe . Below 6' - 7' (here ) the year round temp is 50 -55 F . So in the winter it will keep things from freezing at night and moderate the temp during the day . In the summer it will cool as well. For homes , liquid loops can be used with a heat pump to heat and cool . BUt fro a green house air is cheaper to install and run .

Dave

I read up on that years ago. The problem especially in summer is the humid air condensing in the cool pipes. Add the dust and pollen that get drawn in and stick to the wet walls of the pipe and you get mold. Not good. It would take some good hi quality filters to keep the dust and pollen out of the piping.


Gordy

Good point Gordy . Definitely something to keep in mind .

Dave

Timj wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:58 pm You ground is a little warmer, we only get 48 to 52 and have to get a little deeper.
What type of soil do you have, can you dig a trench 6 to 8 feet deep and have it stand or will it cave in?
Here is mostly sand and if I try to get 8' deep it will be 12' wide at the top. I do get some clay that will stand up and I can dig just the width of the bucket, but I never go in them trenches. Never trust clay.

50-55 is just a guess , I don't know exactly . I do have a 30' dug well that I could measure the water temp at the end of a pump run and get a better idea . We are on a glacial drift . Many sand with some gravel /rocks and ribbons of clay here and there . The earth is fairly stable and drains well . I would not trust a trench over 4' though . If I am able to do it in the future , I would put the pipe in and back fill as I go . A back hoe and a loader, couple of guys should be able to do a loop long enough to handle a med. sized green house in a weekend . Hopefully next summer . Just to much to finish this summer and recover $$$$ from this year .

Dave

Propane57 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:54 pm Thanks Dave. What is required to this ground air system. Just fans.

Noel

Yes and like Gordy pointed out filters and some way to collect condensation and remove it .

Dave

DavidBarkey wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:54 am

Timj wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:58 pm You ground is a little warmer, we only get 48 to 52 and have to get a little deeper.
What type of soil do you have, can you dig a trench 6 to 8 feet deep and have it stand or will it cave in?
Here is mostly sand and if I try to get 8' deep it will be 12' wide at the top. I do get some clay that will stand up and I can dig just the width of the bucket, but I never go in them trenches. Never trust clay.

50-55 is just a guess , I don't know exactly . I do have a 30' dug well that I could measure the water temp at the end of a pump run and get a better idea . We are on a glacial drift . Many sand with some gravel /rocks and ribbons of clay here and there . The earth is fairly stable and drains well . I would not trust a trench over 4' though . If I am able to do it in the future , I would put the pipe in and back fill as I go . A back hoe and a loader, couple of guys should be able to do a loop long enough to handle a med. sized green house in a weekend . Hopefully next summer . Just to much to finish this summer and recover $$$$ from this year .

Dave

Sounds alot like here as far as soil conditions. I was thinking mostly about bucket size on the hoe, might as well run a big one, move as much dirt as fast as you can.

Must be a formula for sizing the amount of and size of pipe to match the building size ?

Noel

Good point about the condensation, that could be a problem with water gathering at the bottom of the pipes. Some sort of system to pump that out should be in place. Also, what about mold. Once the pipes are so deep how are they to be maintained? Hm...

Propane57 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:34 am Must be a formula for sizing the amount of and size of pipe to match the building size ?

Noel

Yes there is but , it is beyond my focus right now . Plus have figure out how big the green house will be .

Dave

Eugen wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:39 am Good point about the condensation, that could be a problem with water gathering at the bottom of the pipes. Some sort of system to pump that out should be in place. Also, what about mold. Once the pipes are so deep how are they to be maintained? Hm...

This site explains a lot of this .
https://ceresgs.com/10-dos-and-donts-fo ... er-system/

Based on the design here I may go with this style . Not sure yet .

Dave

got what I beleave to be an accurate ground temp reading today . We have a 30 dug well with 6' of water column. After waiting until right near the end of the pump cycle so as to have as close to ground temp as possible . The reading at the pump intake was 48 F . Which is close to the 50-55 at 8' I have been told for this area . That would keep things from freezing over night in winter and cool in summer as long as the run sizing is correct for the size of structure . Definitely something to think about for the future .

Dave